Engine damage model and leak issues. (Edited title)

[Roland_HUNter]

I have also tested it. I shot the radiator of Spit Mk Vb...after 15 minutes it started to follow me on max gas.... after 20 minutes, I stopped the test. Doesn't the coolant run out after 20 minutes? Nah...

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

2 hours ago, Roland_HUNter said:

I have also tested it. I shot the radiator of Spit Mk Vb...after 15 minutes it started to follow me on max gas.... after 20 minutes, I stopped the test. Doesn't the coolant run out after 20 minutes? Nah...

 

Its not only the time it takes for the engine to fail/seize.

 

Its the fact that most of the times a plane leaking coolant or oil or both can operate a combat or even emergency power for very long like it wasnt damaged.

 

An unpressurized cooling system will lose much of its efficiency and your engine will overheat way faster if you push it especially at 2000m and more where atmospheric pressure drops.

 

Same for oil pressure. Dont push your engine if your oil pressure has significantly dropped. Low rpm, low mp and pray it doesnt seize before you reach friendly territory.

 

But right now, your rad can suffer from explosive diarrhea for insane amount of time without any consequence...

 

Engine = heart of the aircraft and the DM needs to be more evolved. Leaks are a joke right now. Inline engines = concrete.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

So, a few days ago I followed a Peshka for AN HOUR which leaked both oil and coolant from the same engine. 

 

No consequence, nothing, he didnt even fall behind his flight at some point because he started to lose power.

 

This is totally ridiculous!

[LukeFF]

5 hours ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

So, a few days ago I followed a Peshka for AN HOUR which leaked both oil and coolant from the same engine. 

 

No consequence, nothing, he didnt even fall behind his flight at some point because he started to lose power.

 

This is totally ridiculous!

 

I've passed the report up to the developers, but a track file would be very helpful here, as always. ?

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

On 6/9/2023 at 1:00 PM, LukeFF said:

 

I've passed the report up to the developers, but a track file would be very helpful here, as always. ?

 

Hello Luke. In this case, a simple track wouldnt say much. 

 

If someone would post a track of a Hurricane's engine seizing after 10 minutes of oil leak, that doesnt prove that OVERALL the engine's damage model is well balanced. This track could be an exception not the rule. 9 other tracks could show the engine leaking both oil and coolant for more than 30 minutes without any consequence.

 

Overall, most of the liquid cooled engines are too tough and can operate at high levels with leaks for too long. Its a global issue with the damage model. It needs extensive testing and sampling, not only 1 or 2 tracks to prove a point. 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by I./JG52_Woutwocampe

[the_emperor]

I dont know if this is modelled in the game:

for example the Packard/Merlins (and I think the Merlin 66 alike) engines cooling system is pressured to 30psi.

Damage to the system (in this case the radiator as coolant lines/are not modelled as far as iam informed) will depressurise the system and dramatically reduce the cooling capacity.

So continued flying on max power should only be possible for a short amount of time and you usually would try to fly towards your lines on reduced power looking for a nice field to ditch.

The P-51s engine radiator for examples also houses the aftercooler radiator (in the Spitfire IX its the right radiator housing) and a damaged aftercooler radiator also prohibits continued flying max power (but I also think the aftercooler system is also not modelled)

 

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

Yeah @the_emperor, this issue has also been mentionned a couple of times in this topic. No way the loss of pressure in the cooling system is modelized. That allows engines to run smoothly at combat/emergency power even when leaking. So not only does it take too long for the aircraft to run out of oil/coolant, it also means the aircraft is not affected at all in the meantime.

[the_emperor]

Are the coolant tanks and their capacity modelled and can they be damaged and drained or are the radiators the only part of the cooling system that is actually modelled that can be damaged (i know coolant lines are not)?

if that should be the case, i guess all inline engine/ planes would be in need of serious remodelling which would be a big task and might be too much of a workload and backtracking of older existing models 

Edited June 13, 2023 by the_emperor

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

1 hour ago, the_emperor said:

Are the coolant tanks and their capacity modelled and can they be damaged and drained or are the radiators the only part of the cooling system that is actually modelled that can be damaged (i know coolant lines are not)?

if that should be the case, i guess all inline engine/ planes would be in need of serious remodelling which would be a big task and might be too much of a workload and backtracking of older existing models 

 

I dont think the coolant tanks are modelled. The white mist always comes out of the radiator. But I'm not 100% sure about that. 

 

There is probably a way to make leaks more crippling for your engine without entirely remodelling the damage model of the tank + line + radiators.

 

 

[the_emperor]

21 hours ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

There is probably a way to make leaks more crippling for your engine without entirely remodelling the damage model of the tank + line + radiators.

should be possible. 
but on the other hand I think not modelling the coolant tank as  a vital part of a water cooled engine which makes those engines so vulnerable is a chance missed out to say it politely (modelling the coolant lines is debatable though I want those to be modelled)

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

2 hours ago, the_emperor said:

should be possible. 
but on the other hand I think not modelling the coolant tank as  a vital part of a water cooled engine which makes those engines so vulnerable is a chance missed out to say it politely (modelling the coolant lines is debatable though I want those to be modelled)

 

Yeah me too, but if we are going to be realistic here, we dont even have droptanks and the fuel system is extremely basic. I'm really not expecting a major overhaul of the engines damage model but a few tweaks here and there could improve the situation.

[LukeFF]

On 6/13/2023 at 7:14 AM, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

I dont think the coolant tanks are modelled. The white mist always comes out of the radiator. But I'm not 100% sure about that. 

 

The coolant tanks are modeled, and their ability to keep the engine cooled is reduced if it starts overheating.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

42 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

The coolant tanks are modeled, and their ability to keep the engine cooled is reduced if it starts overheating.

 

Then it seriously needs to be tweaked. 

 

But its good news though, because its already there, it just needs to be balanced properly. 

 

Question. For the 109 for instance, where the coolant tank? I dont remember, is it in the wings or in the fuselage?

 

 

 

[the_emperor]

45 minutes ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

For the 109 for instance, where the coolant tank

Left and right and in front of the engine mounting. 
Spit/Mustang have theirs in a single tank in front of the engine. No idea for the Yaks. 
 

 

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

The coolant tanks are modeled

Thanks for clearing that up. Do you happen to know how damage to the tanks is modelled? Thus far I dont think I have experienced that kind of damage.

Cheers✌️

[LukeFF]

2 minutes ago, the_emperor said:

Do you happen to know how damage to the tanks is modelled? Thus far I dont think I have experienced that kind of damage.

 

No, unfortunately, I don't. I just do know that in cases where the radiator is intact but it starts to overheat (due to the shutters being closed) the system will start to blow off steam in order to keep the tank from exploding. As a result of that, of course, there will be less coolant available to keep the engine cool.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

I have NEVER had any strange engine overheatings without rad damage and a white trail leaking out from said radiator.

 

I have NEVER seen a white trail from the fuselage of a 109 despite the coolant tank in front of the engine mounting. Only greenish or brownish leaks, therefore fuel or oil. White trails always come out of wing rads. 

 

More than 4000 hours of flight since 2018 or something.

Edited June 14, 2023 by I./JG52_Woutwocampe

[the_emperor]

12 hours ago, LukeFF said:

I don't. I just do know that in cases where the radiator is intact but it starts to overheat (due to the shutters being closed) the system will start to blow off steam in order to keep the tank from exploding. As a result of that, of course, there will be less coolant available to keep the engine cool.

 

Thank you,

but that steam does still come from the radiators not from the pressure release valve of the cooling system.

hence my questions whether this means that coolant tanks can be hit and drained/destroyed? as this is something I have not yet experienced.

Edited June 15, 2023 by the_emperor

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

Me neither and yeah indeed when the coolant reaches critical temp you will see steam coming out of your radiator even though the shutters are fully closed. Happened to me lately in a 110. 

 

I'm still kind of shocked that the coolant tank IS modelled because I've never seen one damaged in more than 4000 hours.

 

Everytime you see white steam its leaking from the rad and you can see visual damage on the rad itself. It happens on rare occasions that the rad will leak steam without showing any visual damage from the outside but that doesnt necessarily means that it isnt damaged.

 

The more I think about it, the more I'm conviced that there's really something wrong here. About oil leaks too. Sometimes it takes forever for an engine to seize despite a huge oil leak. You feel like the oil tank is 300L or something.

 

 

[the_emperor]

1 hour ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

I'm still kind of shocked that the coolant tank IS modelled

Question is how?

is it a hit box/3d asset that can be damaged or is it an artificial container that drains when overheating/radiators are damaged?

I parked my P-51 behind some ace Ju88s to test that and not only can the engine absorb quite some damage but I noticed no damage to the coolant tank which is right in front of the engine.

Edited June 15, 2023 by the_emperor

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

2 hours ago, the_emperor said:

Question is how?

is it a hit box/3d asset that can be damaged or is it an artificial container that drains when overheating/radiators are damaged?

I parked my P-51 behind some ace Ju88s to test that and not only can the engine absorb quite some damage but I noticed no damage to the coolant tank which is right in front of the engine.

 

I certainely cannot tell you exactly how they modelled it since I legit thought they werent modelled. 

 

I'm gonna go out on a limb though and say that they probably arent modelled properly. 

 

I'd say....they are currently modelled as 300L coolant tanks 100% protected by a 50mm armor?

[the_emperor]

One issue might be, that radiators could be to tough.

Literally hundreds of .303 where not able to damage my radiators though in the end cut off my wing

Would like to add the track file, but the size limit does not allow it (yes, also zipped its to big).

 

 

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

I dont think the damage model of the radiators is faulty. We see plenty of brown and white trails showing the rad is damaged and leaking.

 

The problem is what happens when the rad is damaged and there's a leak. Not much actually.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

You can literally fly all day long with glicol or oil leaking. Unfortunately there are no difference in visual representation how big or small the leakage is. Same with fuel, the self siling tank is working but the visual representation is the same if the leak were made by small or big caliber gun.

 

Hope that the new mysterious  project will have that sorted out ?

Edited June 19, 2023 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

6 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

You can literally fly all day long with glicol or oil leaking. Unfortunately there are no difference in visual representation how big or small the leakage is. Same with fuel, the self siling tank is working but the visual representation is the same if the leak were made by small or big caliber gun.

 

Hope that the new mysterious  project will have that sorted out ?

 

Actually, oil leaks visually give you a clear indication, sometimes its much thicker, easier to see and the windshield will become completely stained in a mere 2 minutes. For some planes especially the 109 that means the engine will seize in under 10 minutes. But its rare honestly and most of the time oil leaks are without real consequences for engines. Especially on Klimov and Merlin powered aircrafts which actually give the finger to any leak of any sort.

 

 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

10 hours ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

 

Actually, oil leaks visually give you a clear indication, sometimes its much thicker, easier to see and the windshield will become completely stained in a mere 2 minutes. For some planes especially the 109 that means the engine will seize in under 10 minutes. But its rare honestly and most of the time oil leaks are without real consequences for engines. Especially on Klimov and Merlin powered aircrafts which actually give the finger to any leak of any sort.

 

 

Look like lack of consistency, just speaking from experience , didn't do any tests or not do i fly all plenes when leakage happened. For me oil leak looks the same, do not remember change in color or volume.

[the_emperor]

At least running WEP with a damaged radiator should be only possible for a very short amount of time before it kills your engine.

I should not be able to kill my engine for running WEP past timer limit (full time limit) with a damaged radiator.

with a very low power setting you may last a while till your coolant is gone and your radiator is still operational to a certain degree.

And when will we get the radiator cut off for the 109?

Edited June 20, 2023 by the_emperor