Engine damage model and leak issues. (Edited title)

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

Some inline engines in this game are too tough but the merlin in the Hurricane is the worst. Since this plane has been introduced I have never seen its engine run out of oil or coolant even after 30 minutes of severe leaks.

 

Yesterday I saw 2 leave the combat area and both had both coolant and oil leaks. I followed them in my 110 and they both landed safely after more than 15 minutes.

Edited January 24, 2022 by I./JG52_Woutwocampe

[SCG_motoadve]

Not only the Hurri, most planes you can fly with a coolant leak for quite a while, I read that if you got your cooling system shot and leaking in a 109, it would not make it across the channel during the Battle of Britain.

In game we can fly long periods with coolant  leaks, its a bit too forgiving.

They seem as reliable as air cooled engines ,which in reality it was not the case.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

I think the 109 is actually the aircraft that is the most impacted by leaks. Oil and coolant. If both radiators leak its a matter of 5 minutes or less. I have seen the DB engines freeze often when they run out of oil. 

 

I have seen the 190 and La5 run out of oil too a couple of times. 

 

The M-105 is one inline engine that can last for very long with leaks, not as bad as Merlin engine aircrafts but still longer than what one would expect. Yaks , lagg3 and Peshkas alike. 

 

I think the engine damage model needs to be more evolved overall. Starting with some inline engines being more vulnerable.

 

 

[PatrickAWlson]

How long is too long?  I would imagine there are a lot of variables.

 

How bad is the leak?

How hard is the engine being run?  Actively engaging in combat with leaking coolant, which the AI tends to do, would hasten failure.  

How sturdy is the engine?

What are the atmospheric conditions?

Are there any redundancies that would allow more flying time?

 

A 109 trying to make it over the channel is probably a good 10-15 minutes, assuming they were not right at the coast. In real life conditions that is not much flying time, but in flight sim conditions it is a long time.

 

I have less of a problem with the planes not falling out of the sky than I do with the AI continuing to fight with a seriously damaged plane.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

For the hurricane, weather doesnt matter. I fought it in BOM so often, from jan 42 to april 42, from minus 30 degrees to 5 degrees. Even if both leaks are severe (opaque white trail for the coolant, thick brown trail for the oil + windshield completely stained in less than 2 minutes.) Whatever the conditions, it will make it back home. 

 

I think the oil tank of the hurricane is near the root of the left wing. A major leak from this tank would probably empty it in less than 10 minutes. But its never happening. Even with a thick brown trail coming from there, its going home. Even if there's a cumulus coming from that radiator, its going home.

[the_emperor]

One also has to keep in mind, that those system are usually pressurized, so damage to that system should propably also lead to a decrease in cooling function in addition to fluid loss.

I am not quite sure about the damage model, but are individuel coolant/oil lines in the air frame modelled and can be damaged? (I think only the radiators itself can be damaged, while the damage itself is seens very simplified, it does not seem to matter wheter it is 1 .50 or 3 20mm that hit my radiator, but that is just a feeling).

Also, the 109 G series in comparison to all inline watercooled fighters does have the "toughest" cooling system, since it can cut off a radiator if damaged and limp home on the one remaining to stop fluid loss. Unfortunately that is not modelled either in the game.

Edited October 5, 2021 by the_emperor

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

Engine damage definately needs improvement. So often I get the 'engine damage' technochat message but I absolutely see no difference. MP is stable. Revs are stable, I see no decrease in performance at all. 

 

Also, about leaks, I'd like to see a more dynamic degradation in performance instead of all or nothing.

 

Yesterday I was flying IL2 42 in Stalingrad, after the ground strike I rejoined a big fight between Yaks and 109s. I managed to damage the engine of a G2 in a headon. There was a noticeable brown trail and the windshield was completely stained in less than 5 minutes. I fought him for like....30 minutes, no kidding. I even managed to damage a coolant radiator in the meantime. But to no avail. He kept pushing his engine to the limits. Despite the leak and the obvious damage in the engine, he never stopped, he kept pushing to 1.42 ATA and go vertical. He never slowed down. He even damaged me enough so I left, despite all of this and the totally blackened windshield. I ran away, he finally left too, and his engine NEVER stopped. Eventually he disappeared, like he de-spawned from the mission.

 

It was extremely frustrating. And it was not an isolated case. So yeah, engine damage and leaks need serious improvements.

[the_emperor]

On 10/26/2021 at 6:16 PM, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

It was extremely frustrating. And it was not an isolated case. So yeah, engine damage and leaks need serious improvements.

totally agree here. the liquid cooling system is a "complexe systeme" which is is not really modelled in its complexity damagewise and so there is a key component of the WWII aeriel warfare missing.

Here is an example: The P-51 radiator also houses the after cooling system for the supercharger. a system which gives the Packard/Merlin engines an advantage over the german inline engines.

Unfortunately that system also does not seem to be modelled, as damage to the radiator/after cooling system as in the P-51 would force you to immediately reduce engine power of you dont want to risk damage in a short time.

As for damage to the 109 radiator: you should be able to shut off a damaged radiator and then try to limp home on one radiator ->  a key system of the 109s is missing, even though it clearly visible in the 109 cockpit.

To summarize:

1) Damage to the cooling system of all inline engines should be death sentence if you keep fighting on full throttle and should  force you to throttle back power and try to get home or at least over allied territory.

2) the damage itself should varrie and determine how much time you have left (at the moment is feels like there are only two states: damaged or undamaged). There is a difference if my radiator gets hit by a .303 or 20mm HE.

 

A more indepth damage system will also make rifle calibre rounds more of a threat as they are now currently in the game.

Edited October 28, 2021 by the_emperor

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

@the_emperor

 

I think its not as basic as 'damaged or undamaged'. 

 

There are levels to leaks actually. Sometimes, a very important oil leak will make your engine freeze very fast. You literrally see the needle of the oil pressure gauge move! 

 

However, as we said, the issue here is that in most cases, leaks and engine damage will still allow you to get the most from your engine for a very long while. And its worse on some planes than others. The hurricane might be the worst so far. At this point I even think it could be a bug and that it has unlimited supply of oil and coolant.

 

The M-105 engine is also too tough. Inline engines were more susceptible to damage than its represented in-game overall but its even more obvious on some engines. 

[Denum]

All the aircraft can leak for far to long with little consequence. 

 

It's not just the Hurricane. The 190s are able to fly for ridiculous amounts of time with major engine damage. 

 

Meanwhile the P47 faints at the slightest nick. ?

[Eisenfaustus]

3 hours ago, Denum said:

The 190s are able to fly for ridiculous amounts of time with major engine damage. 

Shouldn’t air cooled engines be much harder to kill?

From what I read inline engines often died from rifle calibre hits to the cooling system while air cooled engines still produced enough power to keep the plane flying after several cylinders were shot away. 
 

But I’m no expert on engines so I may have gotten something wrong. 

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

Strangely enough I have seen my share of 190 and La5 engines freezing after suffering significant damage to the oil radiator. 

 

There's definately room for improvement when talking about engine damage, but the devs will have to look into it carefully to make the proper adjustements. 

 

 

[the_emperor]

2 hours ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

Strangely enough I have seen my share of 190 and La5 engines freezing after suffering significant damage to the oil radiator

 

I guess radial engines seize from loss of lubrication, but if throttled back they should be able to bring you home as air cooling should be sufficiant as long as you are running on reduced power and you dont lose all your oil before that and the remaing lubrication in the engines itself is gone. As long as their is oil in the sump and the pump is still working you have a good chance to at least save you over your own territory.

If the cooling system of the inline engines on the other hand fails, its toast, even on reduced power it will run into its limits fast and seize.

Edited October 28, 2021 by the_emperor

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Sometimes I'm suspicious how the technochat message says engine damage,  if that was not there I would never know.  I really want hear that my engine is not working correctly, sometimes there is if engine is strong damaged but I'm tired of that old (same as ROF) sound on top of the correctly sound engine. The engine itself should had different sound depending of what was broken or damaged not that generic on top sound.

 

 

I have been in situations where my engine was emitting black puffs of smoke,  heard that damage sample but my revs were stable,pressures also... could fly 30 minutes before was bored and land. 

Edited October 28, 2021 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[SCG_motoadve]

10 minutes ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

Sometimes I'm suspicious how the technochat message says engine damage,  if that was not there I would never know.  I really want hear that my engine is not working correctly, sometimes there is if engine is strong damaged but I'm tired of that old (same as ROF) sound on top of the correctly sound engine. The engine itself should had different sound depending of what was broken or damaged not that generic on top sound.

Yes, different sound for sure is needed, also vibration, loss of power,  we need feedback that something is damaged

[Pict]

1 hour ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

Sometimes I'm suspicious how the technochat message says engine damage,  if that was not there I would never know. 

 

I never use the techno chat, so I wouldn't know what it would say. But I do tend to operate the engine slightly on the safe side and I watch the guages a lot.

 

Next time your techno chat says your engine is damaged, have a look at your guages for any abnormal readings. Like fluctuations in RPM or oil pressure. These are both good indicators that there is a problem with the engine. And should show up before any major noise or vibration is appears.

 

Edited October 28, 2021 by Pict

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

12 minutes ago, Pict said:

 

I never use the techno chat, so I wouldn't know what it would say. But I do tend to operate the engine slightly on the safe side and I watch the guages a lot.

 

Next time your techno chat says your engine is damaged, have a look at your guages for any abnormal readings. Like fluctuations in RPM or oil pressure. These are both good indicators that there is a problem with the engine. And should show up before any major noise or vibration is appears.

 

I dont remember a single time when my MP indicator or tachometer displayed any erratic behavior of the engine when the 'engine damage' message was on. I have seen of course the oil pressure drop when I suffered damage to the oil radiator. 

 

Im ok with the damage model of the radial/air cooled engines. They are tough, as they should be, but significant damage to the radiator will eventually make it seize.

 

Its about the inline engines. Thats were the problem is, because right now, they are as tough as radials which is certainely not accurate. 

 

You fly a Yak 9, you leak coolant and have the engine damage message displayed? Pffff, sweep it under the rug son and man up! Get those 109's before coming back home to land safely.

[Pict]

5 minutes ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

dont remember a single time when my MP indicator or tachometer displayed any erratic behavior of the engine when the 'engine damage' message was on.

 

Ok thanks, that's what I was trying to understand. So the techno chat thing isn't really giving the proper feedback if it say the engine is damaged when there is no other sign of damage? Or am I misunderstanding you.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

1 minute ago, Pict said:

 

Ok thanks, that's what I was trying to understand. So the techno chat thing isn't really giving the proper feedback if it say the engine is damaged when there is no other sign of damage? Or am I misunderstanding you.

 

Exactly this. You just ignore the engine damage message and keep on fighting, push your engine to the limit and get the most from your aircraft.

 

The worst part of engine damage right now for the player is the oil stained windshield if you leak oil. Unfortunately this doesnt affect the AI at all. That means that most of the times, damaging the engine of an AI plane has no consequences at all.

 

One exception is the 109. If it leaks coolant from both radiators usually its done under 5 minutes.

[the_emperor]

18 minutes ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

Its about the inline engines. Thats were the problem is, because right now, they are as tough as radials which is certainely not accurate. 

 

Thats does summarize it quite good. Currently the game is  lacking a key experience of WWii aeriel combat, namely the difference between liquid cooled inline engines and air cooled radial engines in terms of damage modell and how that damage in all its variety is modelled or worse missing in the game. Which subsequently robbs a big portion of the emersion.

Though I do really like the game itself and understand the need to create new content to keep the revenue flow steady,

I really wish the devs would also go back and revisite those kind of things and create a more realistig flight experience. As a complex damage/engine modell is very much a core of a WWii flight sim and needed for a good experience. the Cliff of Dover series shows that it can be done. Why the step back here whith a more arcadish damage model that feels closer to the old 2000 IL-2 series?

 

Edited October 28, 2021 by the_emperor

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

31 minutes ago, the_emperor said:

 

Though I do really like the game itself and understand the need to create new content to keep the revenue flow steady,

I really wish the devs would also go back and revisite those kind of things and create a more realistig flight experience. As a complex damage/engine modell is very much a core of a WWii flight sim and needed for a good experience. the Cliff of Dover series shows that it can be done. Why the step back here whith a more arcadish damage model that feels closer to the old 2000 IL-2 series?

 

They do, I think they do a good job of balancing the development of new content and improving older content. 

 

I definately agree about the engine damage model being too simplified right now. Fighters were built around the powerplant available, thats a well known fact, the P-39 being the only exception I can think of right now. Since the engine is the heart of the plane I think it only make sense to make additional efforts in its damage model and its improvement.

 

I hope the devs will look into it. We need to be patient but I fully trust them.

 

[Stig]

On 10/26/2021 at 6:16 PM, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

Yesterday I was flying IL2 42 in Stalingrad, after the ground strike I rejoined a big fight between Yaks and 109s. I managed to damage the engine of a G2 in a headon. There was a noticeable brown trail and the windshield was completely stained in less than 5 minutes. I fought him for like....30 minutes, no kidding. I even managed to damage a coolant radiator in the meantime. But to no avail. He kept pushing his engine to the limits. Despite the leak and the obvious damage in the engine, he never stopped, he kept pushing to 1.42 ATA and go vertical.

 

If it was a G2 it was not pushing 1.42 ATA.

 

2 hours ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

One exception is the 109. If it leaks coolant from both radiators usually its done under 5 minutes.

 

On 10/5/2021 at 12:49 PM, the_emperor said:

Also, the 109 G series in comparison to all inline watercooled fighters does have the "toughest" cooling system, since it can cut off a radiator if damaged and limp home on the one remaining to stop fluid loss. Unfortunately that is not modelled either in the game

 

The above bolded by me, seems to be contradicting statements; unless I am missing something.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

Just now, Stig said:

 

If it was a G2 it was not pushing 1.42 ATA.

 

 

 

The above bolded by me, seems to be contradicting statements; unless I am missing something.

 

No contradiction here. Im saying that a 109 with both radiators damaged will have engine failure shortly.

 

And someone else said that the option of cutting off a damaged radiator and use only the OK one is not modelled in the game.

 

2 totally different statements.

[Stig]

On 10/26/2021 at 6:16 PM, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

I even managed to damage a coolant radiator in the meantime. But to no avail. He kept pushing his engine to the limits. Despite the leak and the obvious damage in the engine, he........

 

So how late in the fight did you hit his coolant radiator? 

 

Also, that the G2 pilot could see out of a completely stained windscreen to dogfight for 30 minutes, would suggest that the damage model isn't the only problem. 

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

19 minutes ago, Stig said:

 

So how late in the fight did you hit his coolant radiator? 

 

Also, that the G2 pilot could see out of a completely stained windscreen to dogfight for 30 minutes, would suggest that the damage model isn't the only problem. 

 

Hit the coolant radiator maybe around mid fight. At this point its oil radiator had been bleeding for something like 15 minutes. After around 25 minutes overall it hit me hard with its 20mm cannon so I retreated. And yes, obviously the AI isnt affected by the oil stained windshield. It still continues to fight the way it would normally, with the same accuracy. Thats another issue.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

Quoted DM claim was deleted - SMITH

 

Please dont derail the topic with BS.

 

Thanks.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

Why do I have that crazy feeling that my sarcasm detector let me down...

[Denum]

Removed deleted quote. Smith

 

Minor at best, 

One nations aircraft just have a much lower skill floor. 

 

[Raven109]

1 hour ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

Why do I have that crazy feeling that my sarcasm detector let me down...

Whether it was sarcasm or not, it's still off-topic....

 

It would be nice to have coolant lines modeled. Perhaps if not modeled in great detail with own hit-boxes, at least in an abstract way. For example, a projectile hitting the aircraft nose hitbox would have a chance of also triggering a coolant leak (considering that you have a water jacket and coolant lines in that area) - not sure if this is already in-game, haven't tested it.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Raven109

[Knarley-Bob]

Yes please resume your talk about oil lines, please forgive me........

Was wondering myself how long an engine can go with out either. I've seen planes leaking so badly that one couldn't see the plane. One shouldn't need to keep shooting it till it explodes, bursts into flame, or breaks up. Let alone chase you till you are shot down.

I've also seen war footage of landing gear dropping , I would imagine that the hydrolics for them has been shot to pieces.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Knarley-Bob

[Raven109]

1 hour ago, Knarley-Bob said:

One shouldn't need to keep shooting it till it explodes, bursts into flame, or breaks up. Let alone chase you till you are shot down.

 

I think the issue in this case is not the damage model, but rather the "guy inside" the airplane. If you read WW2 diaries, pilots mention that when hit they quickly checked the engine temperatures, for fear of the engine catching fire, or seizing over enemy lines. This deep fear doesn't really exist in online play for the most part. Sure, some servers give incentives to people who return to the friendly lines, or to those who don't die. Sure, there are people who consider a good mission one where they also get back to base. But you have the competitive types, for whom it's more important to shoot the other guy down at all cost. And I guess its really understandable. You spent the time getting to the target, finding the enemy after minutes of uneventful patrols, your play time is limited, might as well shoot something down, even if you're in flames. There are no real hardcore consequences.

 

When it comes to the AI, of course this fear could be programmed (and randomized to trigger differently based on situation).

Edited October 29, 2021 by Raven109

[Knarley-Bob]

I don't get to deal with 'live' opponents. With my service as slow as it is, I am doomed to 'single player land'. I have landed, and watched AI planes, that I shot to pieces fly home and land. Or when I break off due to depleted ammo, only to have them chase me all the way back to base, leaving a trail of either steam or smoke and riddle me with bullets as I try to land.

Coolant, in a sealed environment will have pressure. When the vessel is punctured, it won't take long for the liquid to puke out. Ever take the cap off a hot radiator? (If not, don't try it.)

Oil would also be under pressure, but not to the same extent. Depends on the size of the hole. I don't know if an engine will go longer without oil, or coolant, but I'm sure the difference isn't going to be much. They are both kind of important.

[Raven109]

46 minutes ago, Knarley-Bob said:

I don't get to deal with 'live' opponents. With my service as slow as it is, I am doomed to 'single player land'. I have landed, and watched AI planes, that I shot to pieces fly home and land. Or when I break off due to depleted ammo, only to have them chase me all the way back to base, leaving a trail of either steam or smoke and riddle me with bullets as I try to land.

Coolant, in a sealed environment will have pressure. When the vessel is punctured, it won't take long for the liquid to puke out. Ever take the cap off a hot radiator? (If not, don't try it.)

Oil would also be under pressure, but not to the same extent. Depends on the size of the hole. I don't know if an engine will go longer without oil, or coolant, but I'm sure the difference isn't going to be much. They are both kind of important.

 

I agree. What I'm trying to say is that the devs could program the most realistic cooling/lubrication system in the world, and it would be a technical achievement, no doubt. But in the end, it's the player inside the cockpit (be it human or AI) who decides whether to disengage and run once its oil/coolant pressure starts dropping, or stay and fight. For human players there's not much to do, you can't force someone to disengage unless you instantly stop their engine once coolant/oil pressure starts dropping or once the aircraft is on fire. However that wouldn't be realistic, since engines still work for some time after the coolant/oil starts leaking.

 

On the other hand, the AI can be programmed of course to react to coolant/oil leaks and disengage much faster, and at least in my experience, this is already the case, at least in QMB. Once the AI plane is hit enough it disengages and runs for home. Perhaps this threshold, where the AI decides to disengage needs to be tightened, to make the AI more "fearful".

Edited October 29, 2021 by Raven109

[Denum]

Radials are supposed to be tough. But there's a very obvious difference in the P47s engine and the 190s in terms of run time after taking damage.

 

The 109s seem to be able to run forever leaking coolant. 

 

There's a P38 pilot recount of a mission where they took a hit to the engine. He landed within minutes in enemy territory. While in game I've made it home a few times streaming glycol. 

 

The Spitfire is hard to gauge in game as it's made of glass. After being struck my engines health is the least of my worries. 

 

I understand from a game play perspective but some consistency would be nice 

[Raven109]

The differentiator between in-line and radial engines wasn't the lubrication system, but rather the cooling system. Break a few cylinders off a radial, sure, it will become unbalanced but it will still be running. Break a few cylinders off a V engine, you'd have to first break the water-jacket to get to the cylinders, not to mention other components such as cam-shafts. Once the cam-shafts are broken one line of cylinders out of the V is done for and the entire engine is most likely done shortly after. Not to mention the higher probability for a liquid cooled engine to get leaks, all the tubing running through the fuselage, going from the engine to the radiators, which in turn are themselves vulnerable. The air cooled radials didn't have anything like this.

 

Covered in oil, inline engine, the 109 had the oil tank right behind the propeller hub, managed to RTB:

 

 

Smaller oil leak, managed to RTB, oil cooler can be seen under the nose:

 

There's another one I can't find at the moment with a 109 pilot smiling next to his ride completely covered in oil.

[-250H-Ursus_]

Only the Hurricane? Seriously? No other planes?
I think your judgment is a bit biased. Don't you think?

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

6 hours ago, -332FG-Ursus_ said:

Only the Hurricane? Seriously? No other planes?
I think your judgment is a bit biased. Don't you think?

 

Wow. You litterally read only the title of the topic and nothing else. Not even the first sentence of the first post. Achievement unlocked.

[-250H-Ursus_]

On 10/30/2021 at 7:14 PM, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

 

Wow. You litterally read only the title of the topic and nothing else. Not even the first sentence of the first post. Achievement unlocked.

I think i did read enough

 

On 10/4/2021 at 10:38 AM, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

Some inline engines in this game are too tough but the merlin in the Hurricane is the worst. Since this plane has been introduced I have never seen its engine run out of oil or coolant even after 30 minutes of severe leaks.

 

Yesterday I saw 2 leave the combat area and both had both coolant and oil leaks. I followed them in my 110 and they both landed safely after more than 15 minutes.

True you said some inline engines. No some. All of them depending of how are you hitted can tolerate an insane amount of time damaged.
P-47 does sad noises about THIS topic in particular.

Edited November 2, 2021 by -332FG-Ursus_

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

Yes, exactly. Inline engines are overall too tough but I noticed that some engines like the merlin especially on the hurri are worse than others. It was clear, pretty clear, thats why your first post about me being biased for only calling out the hurricane is nonsense. Even more shocking is the fact that you claim you read enough and still posted that, knowing that its absolutely NOT what I said. 

 

Anyway, back to topic.

Edited November 2, 2021 by I./JG52_Woutwocampe

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

I got the 'fuel infection system damage' the other day while flying Dora. I didnt really feel a difference though, I would assume it should have had a dramatic effect over power output though?

Edited November 22, 2021 by I./JG52_Woutwocampe