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[RG]Flanker1985

Berlin for the next theater in this game

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I will be nice if the next theater of this game is Berlin  :)

Why? There are several reasons:

 

1: As the last campaign of the war, many aircrafts are unlocked. Like La-7, Yak-3 as well as the jets like Me-262 and so on.

 

2: Berlin was encircled by the entire Allies not just the USSR. And that means there are so many possibilities for many non-USSR planes. Think about it, planes like P-51 series, P-47 series, Spitfire Mk IX and so on. And we can play as many other nations rather than just USSR. We will have the free France, Commonwealth and US as well.  ;)

 

3: All kinds of terrain, fun for the whole family. We have Urban area in the city of Berlin. Vast county side and Seelow high mountain. We can fly above all kind of terrains and enjoy the scenery.  :)   Unlike the Stalingrad, it gets bored after awhile, since we always fly above a landmark less giant Skating rink.

 

So yeah, Berlin is going to be fun  :biggrin:

Please support me by give me some "up" arrow  ;)

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There's no way the team is going to jump from late 1942 directly to the spring of 1945.

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Nah... I'm not for that.

 

And not just because I find late war planes a bit boring.

 

For one thing, it would make most sense to make the first expansion for BoS something closer to make use of the stuff that's already modelled.

 

A Berlin scenario will also be hard to do justice for several reasons:

 

It will require Soviet, German, American and British planes in the skies - at least 25 - 30 types to be representative.

 

An essential part of the situation on the Eastern Front at this time was the hundreds of thousands of refugees crowding the roads and the city itself. Those will not be modelled (for obvious reasons)

 

The extreme numerical superiority of the Allies will either have to be reduced to a-historic levels or the campaign and MP will be extremely one sided.

 

The city itself might be a nightmare to model in any detail without completely killing performance and it will be a logistical nightmare to make ground unit combat posible inside the city.

 

Once the battle moves into the city itself, there will be little left for the pilots to do. German resistance in the air will largely be non-existing and historically there was little actual CAS done inside the city. 

 

With current DM, the heavy weapons of 1945 aircraft might make this even more of a one-burst-one-kill situation than is the case in BoS.

 

No real sense of drama, as there will be no sense that the outcome of the battle hangs in the balance. Stalingrad, Kursk, Moscow, Leningrad, Bagration, heck even Battle of the Bulge, all had posibility to go either way (at least emporarily) Berlin is just boring end game.

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Finkeren you're exaggerating.

 

You can't represent in a simulation the historical aircraft numbers, it's absurd . Because you also can't recreate historical pilot skill. 

What are you going to do ? Tell people in mp: You can't join axis side because we have to respect historical 20 to one ratio. for real ?

This way the west on d day and after front would be impossible to simulate. Or bomber raids. 

Why do we need refugees crowding the roads to be simulated ? Maybe we need to simulate details like sweaty palms too.

I don't see the problem with quick kills. You thing it's going to be different with the FW 190 A3 .

 

You have to compromise somewhere.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Finkeren you're exaggerating.

 

You can't represent in a simulation the historical aircraft numbers, it's absurd . Because you also can't recreate historical pilot skill. 

What are you going to do ? Tell people in mp: You can't join axis side because we have to respect historical 20 to one ratio. for real ?

This way the west on d day and after front would be impossible to simulate. Or bomber raids. 

Why do we need refugees crowding the roads to be simulated ? Maybe we need to simulate details like sweaty palms too.

I don't see the problem with quick kills. You thing it's going to be different with the FW 190 A3 .

 

You have to compromise somewhere.

 

As I said: It's not that it can't be done. It's just that IMHO you can't do the Battle of Berlin justice in a flight sim, because you'd have to make way too many compromises to keep it remotely historically accurate.

 

Just a couple of points:

 

Asymetrical team balance is not unheard of in MP, so of course we can enforce a team ratio, but a historical 20:1 ratio would be unplayable.

 

The streams of refugees is an important, and tragic, aspect of the last months of the war. Not modelling them (which can't and won't be done) will make it just another urban battle.

 

As for the quick kills. I'm not really sure it's a problem as such, but some might be turned away from the gameplay that such weaponry enforces.

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For one thing, it would make most sense to make the first expansion for BoS something closer to make use of the stuff that's already modelled.

 

A Berlin scenario will also be hard to do justice for several reasons:

 

It will require Soviet, German, American and British planes in the skies - at least 25 - 30 types to be representative.

 

An essential part of the situation on the Eastern Front at this time was the hundreds of thousands of refugees crowding the roads and the city itself. Those will not be modelled (for obvious reasons)

 

The extreme numerical superiority of the Allies will either have to be reduced to a-historic levels or the campaign and MP will be extremely one sided.

 

The city itself might be a nightmare to model in any detail without completely killing performance and it will be a logistical nightmare to make ground unit combat posible inside the city.

 

Once the battle moves into the city itself, there will be little left for the pilots to do. German resistance in the air will largely be non-existing and historically there was little actual CAS done inside the city. 

 

With current DM, the heavy weapons of 1945 aircraft might make this even more of a one-burst-one-kill situation than is the case in BoS.

 

No real sense of drama, as there will be no sense that the outcome of the battle hangs in the balance. Stalingrad, Kursk, Moscow, Leningrad, Bagration, heck even Battle of the Bulge, all had posibility to go either way (at least emporarily) Berlin is just boring end game.

 

 

Not really, many performance issue can be set in "Option". If your computer can run it, then turn it on, if not turn them off.

 

Not many excited air battle?? That's not true.

For example, do you know Ivan Kozhedub?? During that battle he shoot down a Me-262.

 

1945116

FW-190

La-7

1945210

FW-190

La-7

1945212

FW-190; FW-190; FW-190

La-7

1945219

Me-262

La-7

1945311

FW-190

La-7

1945318

FW-190; FW-190

La-7

1945322

FW-190; FW-190

La-7

1945323

FW-190

La-7

1945417

FW-190; FW-190

La-7

 

This one man alone shut down so many during the battle of Berlin.

 

You are going to be amazed how many plane were involved in Berlin air battle, check those out.

Check this newspaper at the time, over 170 German plane were shot down.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/48787740

 

Over 1000 plane from RAF were lost

http://www.awmlondon.gov.au/battles/berlin

 

German night fighters shot down 110 Allies' bombers during the raid.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/91423398

 

Also here and here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Berlin_%28RAF_campaign%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Berlin_in_World_War_II

http://www.historyandtheheadlines.abc-clio.com/ContentPages/ContentPage.aspx?entryId=1145035&currentSection=1130224&productid=3

 

You will also find that Allies Berlin bombing campaign started as early as late 1943. Many air battle fought since then until Berlin's downfall. So this map of theater can be reused across many different campaign.

 

And check this old picture. This is going to be so exciting to be remade into the game, to experience those old days.

Edited by HarbingerFlanker1985

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This would be great if you are a fan of online dogfighting furballs.  Otherwise, boring.  Sp campaign types would hate it.  Mp realistic mission people would hate it too. People who like co-op would hate it as well.  But, if on line dogfighting furball people are the majority it might make business sense.

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This would be great if you are a fan of online dogfighting furballs.  Otherwise, boring.  Sp campaign types would hate it.  Mp realistic mission people would hate it too. People who like co-op would hate it as well.  But, if on line dogfighting furball people are the majority it might make business sense.

 

Have you actually read my replies before you post it?

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ok, I missed the part where you expand the game back to 1943.  Now my main problem is it's just not doable. Not in 2014/15 and not by a small independent company like 777.  But if you mean a game centered around the spring of 1945, then yeah, boring to everyone except on line dogfighting furballers. 

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Simply, it's not going to happen. We don't know the actual game arc but the likelihood the developers are going to make this jump is infinitesimally small. DCS WWII will have this era and I think this team is happy to let them have this niche for now. We might get Berlin before the Pacific for technology/build reasons but we shan't get there anytime soon. And I loves me some Dora's!!!

Edited by A1FltTrn=HerrMurf

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Simply, it's not going to happen. We don't know the actual game arc but the likelihood the developers are going to make this jump is infinitesimally small. DCS WWII will have this era and I think this team is happy to let them have this niche for now. We might get Berlin before the Pacific for technology/build reasons but we shan't get there anytime soon. And I loves me some Dora's!!!

 

OK that's understandable.

 

ok, I missed the part where you expand the game back to 1943.  Now my main problem is it's just not doable. Not in 2014/15 and not by a small independent company like 777.  But if you mean a game centered around the spring of 1945, then yeah, boring to everyone except on line dogfighting furballers. 

I still disagree with the idea that Berlin is going to be furball as I have shown many links about air battles in Berlin. Have a look at them. Many loses of planes on both sides.

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I did take a look at them.  The ones that talk about the fierce battles and all the losses on both sides are those that are referencing the whole bombing campaign against Berlin, starting in 1943.  That is a game that is unmakable by today's sim companies. 

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Read through all of them mate.

Also, in fact USSR have bombed Berlin with Pe-8 since late 1941 or early 1942. Can't remember.
And what about Ivan's kill. If there isn't much air battle occur, there is no way that 1 man can shot down that many. And I am sure that he was not the only pilot in the Allied Airforce.

Also if you read Erich's (top Ace) story, you will know that Erich personally destroyed many (German) planes before surrender. Germany still had a lot of planes. But they can't stop the advance of the Allies. Some claim that the air battle is completely 1 sided, that is because they are losing strategic position on the ground, but they still have planes for air battle.

 

Murf made some good points though. If Berlin will not likely to be the next theater, then I will lobby for the Kuban and Crimea 1943.
Once again, same reasons:
Different Terrain, many UK and US planes are involved through the lend lease program such as the Spitfire series, P-40E and P-39D2  ;)

Also possibly, some Hurricane field upgrade version which are used as an attacker than fighter.

Edited by HarbingerFlanker1985

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this "analysis" or some summary is not really good personally for me, looks like, incl. several mistakes and myths etc, but, anyway, and for me and i just think that, by several reasons, definitely NO...

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No sense in hopping more that 2 years in timeline. Crimea spring/summer 1942 or 3rd Kharkov/Kuban/Kursk 1943 would all be good choises because they would give syn-energy benefits in plane sets.

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this "analysis" or some summary is not really good personally for me, looks like, incl. several mistakes and myths etc, but, anyway, and for me and i just think that, by several reasons, definitely NO...

I disagree, I just noticed that some people saying this is not going to happen as if they work for the developer or dismiss others' well researched material as "myth".

I think it is just they don't want to play berlin because they are lobbying for other battle, so they are saying it do discourage others' lobby so they can have better change to lobby theirs. 

lol so devious

Edited by HarbingerFlanker1985

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You will also find that Allies Berlin bombing campaign started as early as late 1943.

 

Unless you have a map that stretches all the way to England, those Allied bombers would be starting in the air every time, just like in Il2. 

 

Nope, no thanks, I don't want that.

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I will be nice if the next theater of this game is Berlin  :)

Why? There are several reasons:

 

1: As the last campaign of the war, many aircrafts are unlocked. Like La-7, Yak-3 as well as the jets like Me-262 and so on.

 

2: Berlin was encircled by the entire Allies not just the USSR. And that means there are so many possibilities for many non-USSR planes. Think about it, planes like P-51 series, P-47 series, Spitfire Mk IX and so on. And we can play as many other nations rather than just USSR. We will have the free France, Commonwealth and US as well.  ;)

 

3: All kinds of terrain, fun for the whole family. We have Urban area in the city of Berlin. Vast county side and Seelow high mountain. We can fly above all kind of terrains and enjoy the scenery.  :)   Unlike the Stalingrad, it gets bored after awhile, since we always fly above a landmark less giant Skating rink.

 

So yeah, Berlin is going to be fun  :biggrin:

Please support me by give me some "up" arrow  ;)

 

The road to Berlin is an interesting campaign. I did a fair bit of reading about it in a few different areas and in particular the push on Berlin at the opening stages was quite the operation plagued by issues with the weather and defeating the defenses at the Seelow heights. I even did a campaign for IL-2 1946 with a semi historical look at 412 IAP flying the Yak-3 in the run up to the end of the war (http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=4126). The aircraft are at the peak of their performance levels and it's certainly interesting from a historical and technological viewpoint... the best of the piston engined and the first of the jet engined in a few rare cases.

 

Wrong on the Berlin encirclement. American and Russian units made contacted near Torgau on the Elbe River and Soviet forces completely surrounded Berlin. The Allies were definitely over Berlin as part of the air war although how much relevance that would be in the drive to Berlin I'm not convinced of. It'd be kind of limited... here's a P-51 to throw everyone a bone but I'd rather see it in a more complete Western Allied way. It's a nice sentiment but not one that's accurate enough to make me excited.

 

Berlin would be a challenging landmark to do right as well. It's a much bigger city than Stalingrad and I'm curious to see how it would look like if we do get there one day.

 

 

This would be great if you are a fan of online dogfighting furballs.  Otherwise, boring.  Sp campaign types would hate it.  Mp realistic mission people would hate it too. People who like co-op would hate it as well.  But, if on line dogfighting furball people are the majority it might make business sense.

 

Historically speaking the late war isn't really that much of a furball. Russian fighter units would be doing a lot of free hunt and tactical aircraft escort (IL-2s mostly... maybe some Boston/Havocs/Pe-2s) with the odd more interesting scenario. A few Do217s were thrown into the battle as were the highly unusual Mistel raids. A lot of the fight would be FW190 Jabo units flying in at high altitude, diving in at a shallow angle to bomb Russian forces and then flipping over and flying away.

 

With aircraft performance as it is in 1945, the high speed pass is the favoured tactic of the day rather than a twisting dogfight from World War I. Moreso an issue for the German squadrons up against sometimes overwhelming odds which would absolutely have to use a hit and run type technique to score any kills... fortunately the aircraft they have favour that type of technique even more than the Russian types. You never want to dogfight or have a furball in a FW190 when your opponents are made up of Yak-3s for example.

 

Some online servers will always devolve into a furball (and who's to say that isn't fun sometimes) but that isn't a specific feature of late war high performance aircraft. In many ways those types of aircraft don't do as well in that environment and other tactics are equally useful. For single player and historical battles the furball would be much less common than you're suggesting. So to be honest, of all of the reasons why we shouldn't jump to a Road to Berlin type scenario, I think this is the weakest argument to make. It's an interesting area of air combat history and equally so to anything in the earlier phases of the war once you get to know some of the details involved.

 

I'd rather us not jump to Berlin. If we stay on the East Front then I'd like to go to Kuban or Kursk for 1943 first. I feel like 1944 is less interesting on the Eastern Front so maybe that would then be the time to head to the Westerrn Desert or Italy or Normandy. Before "wrapping it up" at Berlin.

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Well I wasn't talking about what happened historically, but what would happen in game if this were to come to pass.

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The road to Berlin is an interesting campaign. I did a fair bit of reading about it in a few different areas and in particular the push on Berlin at the opening stages was quite the operation plagued by issues with the weather and defeating the defenses at the Seelow heights. I even did a campaign for IL-2 1946 with a semi historical look at 412 IAP flying the Yak-3 in the run up to the end of the war (http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=4126). The aircraft are at the peak of their performance levels and it's certainly interesting from a historical and technological viewpoint... the best of the piston engined and the first of the jet engined in a few rare cases.

 

Wrong on the Berlin encirclement. American and Russian units made contacted near Torgau on the Elbe River and Soviet forces completely surrounded Berlin. The Allies were definitely over Berlin as part of the air war although how much relevance that would be in the drive to Berlin I'm not convinced of. It'd be kind of limited... here's a P-51 to throw everyone a bone but I'd rather see it in a more complete Western Allied way. It's a nice sentiment but not one that's accurate enough to make me excited.

 

Berlin would be a challenging landmark to do right as well. It's a much bigger city than Stalingrad and I'm curious to see how it would look like if we do get there one day.

 

 

 

Historically speaking the late war isn't really that much of a furball. Russian fighter units would be doing a lot of free hunt and tactical aircraft escort (IL-2s mostly... maybe some Boston/Havocs/Pe-2s) with the odd more interesting scenario. A few Do217s were thrown into the battle as were the highly unusual Mistel raids. A lot of the fight would be FW190 Jabo units flying in at high altitude, diving in at a shallow angle to bomb Russian forces and then flipping over and flying away.

 

With aircraft performance as it is in 1945, the high speed pass is the favoured tactic of the day rather than a twisting dogfight from World War I. Moreso an issue for the German squadrons up against sometimes overwhelming odds which would absolutely have to use a hit and run type technique to score any kills... fortunately the aircraft they have favour that type of technique even more than the Russian types. You never want to dogfight or have a furball in a FW190 when your opponents are made up of Yak-3s for example.

 

Some online servers will always devolve into a furball (and who's to say that isn't fun sometimes) but that isn't a specific feature of late war high performance aircraft. In many ways those types of aircraft don't do as well in that environment and other tactics are equally useful. For single player and historical battles the furball would be much less common than you're suggesting. So to be honest, of all of the reasons why we shouldn't jump to a Road to Berlin type scenario, I think this is the weakest argument to make. It's an interesting area of air combat history and equally so to anything in the earlier phases of the war once you get to know some of the details involved.

 

I'd rather us not jump to Berlin. If we stay on the East Front then I'd like to go to Kuban or Kursk for 1943 first. I feel like 1944 is less interesting on the Eastern Front so maybe that would then be the time to head to the Westerrn Desert or Italy or Normandy. Before "wrapping it up" at Berlin.

 

Good point, mate.

I still prefer and lobby Berlin though. But if not, like you have mentioned, Crimea and Kuban battle of 1943 are definitely second best alternatives.  ;)

Edited by HarbingerFlanker1985

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Well I wasn't talking about what happened historically, but what would happen in game if this were to come to pass.

 

You're right... it does happen. But the planes involved are pretty much irrelevant. Get a jet sim together and you'll find everyone in a F-15 turn fighting at 1000 feet with afterburners engaged :)

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