SPAD VII 180hp first impressions.

[No.23_Triggers]

So, at long last one of my absolute favourites from RoF, the SPAD VII, has made its way into Flying Circus...

...and, honestly, I'm completely underwhelmed ?

Compared to the RoF 180hp VII, which I would often take in favour of the XIII for its BnZ prowess, the Flying Circus VII 180 feels completely anaemic, to the point where I thought I'd accidentally spawned into the 150hp SPAD VII at first. It bleeds its energy ludicrously fast compared to other planes in zoom-climbs, and unless you're keeping the nose quite steeply down, the plane will be constantly shuddering at the edge of its stall throughout combat manoeuvres.  

...once I realised that I really was in the 180hp SPAD, my next thought was "have they somehow accidentally given the 180hp the 150hp's flight model?" - because, to me, the planes felt totally identical in handling, with no noticeable power difference whatsoever. 

To test this, me and another 3rd PG pilot (Biddle) did a couple of duels, 150hp SPAD vs 180hp SPAD. I think it's fair to say we're both pretty seasoned SPAD pilots, both back in RoF and here in FC, and the two variants of the SPAD VII were disturbingly closely matched, with the 180hp SPAD maybe having an almost indistinguishable advantage in the vertical if anything - it was that close that I couldn't tell for sure. 

It does feel like it can hang some tighter turns than the XIII with a little speed behind it, but it'll lose energy so fast that you just can't apply any of its manoeuvrability without constantly losing altitude at a rapid rate, unlike other BnZ / Energy Fighters like the SPAD XIII, Pfalz D.XII, and even the somewhat lethargic S.E.5a would. 

Compared to Rise of Flight, it's night and day. The VII 180hp was vastly superior to the 150hp and, as I mentioned, I actually preferred it to the SPAD XIII (especially without the Lewis Gun add-on). I can't say the FC 180 is even remotely close to what I remember from RoF. 

...honestly I'm confused as to what's going on with the 180 in FC...Perhaps something to do with it being ported into the new engine. Either way, I definitely won't be swapping it out for my XIII anytime soon if I can help it...


EDIT: Oh, an unrelated side note - the Control Surface locking correction is fantastic. Even with the wing-off thing, fighting in FC just got a whole lot more fun. 

EDIT 2:  Oh, I forgot to mention - both SPAD VII variants' flutter in high speed dives is bugged. They both have an insanely exaggerated shake once reaching flutter speeds. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by US93_Larner

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

Well that's a shame, was hoping for you guys at least for a spad 180 that could help against the d7f any way. I don't fly the spad so I wouldn't know the difference. I know in rof the 180 was a potent air craft. I also know in rof the 180 was the only spad that could do the plank turn, Can it at least do that?

[No.23_Triggers]

7 minutes ago, NO.20_W_M_Thomson said:

I also know in rof the 180 was the only spad that could do the plank turn, Can it at least do that?

...Only after the pilot undergoes years of intense training...

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

2 hours ago, US93_Larner said:

...Only after the pilot undergoes years of intense training...

 

....and medication.

 

 

 

On a different note, ditching may be a lot more difficult. I was killed 4x trying to land the Pfalz dIII on the airstart airfield. 3 explosions 1 flip breaking neck which I haven't seen in FC.

Edited September 22, 2021 by J5_Klugermann

[Guest deleted@83466]

1 hour ago, J5_Klugermann said:

 

...1 flip breaking neck which I haven't seen in FC.

Was it an externally braced spinal column or a semi-cantilevered spinal column?  But seriously, you’re saying it’s impossible again to land on unprepared surface/surface not an active airfield?

Edited September 22, 2021 by SeaSerpent

[J2_Trupobaw]

The pilot is much more vunerable to shock. I have survived bad landings where plane ended nose in the ground, tail up - but if impact includes the pilot area, he may be crushed..

Edited September 22, 2021 by J2_Trupobaw

[No.23_Starling]

To echo Larner’s experience, dogfighting last night vs some seasoned BnZ pilots, the main issue is energy retention in the zoom. You’ve got 1-2 attacks before the Diiia or Dvii is either on the level with you or easily able to helicopter up and hang you for 15s. 

 

She cannot turn fight anything in the German line-up other than maybe the DXII, so don’t think it’s a turning SPAD. Still an energy fighter.
 

My advice is to fly it like the current SE5a in FC (also an energy bleeder), but one that’s slower and tougher. I’d probably take it over an SE5a if I have to pick between the two just for the toughness.

 

Good for mid-early 1917 maps, but outclassed in 1918 maps.

 

Real shame - the VII 180 was my fave RoF bird; not sure if the issue is Diiis being able to keep their energy and helicopter too easily (Dva too, that thing still has a very forgiving FM), or the VII losing energy too quick. Either way I will likely take it in early maps only.

 

Agreed with all on the jams. Soooooo much better. We had maybe 3x jams in 2h of constantly knocking the crap out of each other, and when the surfaces failed I’d already taken about 100 hits to my Dviif. Seems much fairer and closer to the limited data.

 

Fixed in a week too! Here’s hoping more improvements will come quickly - bodes really well ?

 

 

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

8 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

Was it an externally braced spinal column or a semi-cantilevered spinal column?  But seriously, you’re saying it’s impossible again to land on unprepared surface/surface not an active airfield?

 

Landed a DrI successfully a few times....blew up once.  No issues with Alb (only one sortie). Pfalz was 4/4 deaths and I don't think I came in too hot. 2 were with no damage.

 

Also 1 death in Alb on spawn in....crashed into ground before plane materialized.

 

 

Felt like Wild Bill

Edited September 22, 2021 by J5_Klugermann

[Garven]

1 hour ago, J5_Klugermann said:

 

Landed a DrI successfully a few times....blew up once.  No issues with Alb (only one sortie). Pfalz was 4/4 deaths and I don't think I came in too hot. 2 were with no damage.

 

Also 1 death in Alb on spawn in....crashed into ground before plane materialized.

 

 

Felt like Wild Bill

Only a matter of time before Entente HQ starts handing out the Klug de Guerre.

[Tycoon]

11 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

Was it an externally braced spinal column or a semi-cantilevered spinal column?  But seriously, you’re saying it’s impossible again to land on unprepared surface/surface not an active airfield?

It's not impossible, way more unforgiving now though. Still sounds like a nuke goes off when you have a light crash.

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

[LukeFF]

10 hours ago, US93_Rummell said:

Agreed with all on the jams. Soooooo much better. We had maybe 3x jams in 2h of constantly knocking the crap out of each other, and when the surfaces failed I’d already taken about 100 hits to my Dviif. Seems much fairer and closer to the limited data.

 

(Sigh)

 

There are no jams - just misfires. 

[=IRFC=Gascan]

5 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

(Sigh)

 

There are no jams - just misfires. 

Yep, my elevator controls misfired and went all floppy ?

[Guest deleted@83466]

There are no jams, just happy little misfires.  Just beat the devil out of it. -Bob Ross

 

 

[J2_Trupobaw]

7 hours ago, gascan said:

Yep, my elevator controls misfired and went all floppy ?

I've heard it happens when you keep yanking the stick backwards and forwards...

Edited September 23, 2021 by J2_Trupobaw

[ST_Catchov]

Isn't that the "spin recovery technique"?  At least, that's what I tell Gwendoline when she catches me practicing alternating right hand and left hand spins.

[JG1_Vonrd]

On 9/22/2021 at 12:29 PM, LukeFF said:

(Sigh)

 

[No.23_Triggers]

Additional thoughts now that I've flown the VII a lot more: 

It's not going to be much good at anything else except one-pass kills - which won't be easy (especially without the Lewis Gun) due to its twitchy rudder. 

If you don't get a severely crippling or killing shot in the first pass, the S.VII will get maybe one good zoom (if you've come down from high altitude) before its energy drops off and doesn't allow it to zoom-climb effectively after a diving attack. 

Any turns past, maybe, 1/3 elevator deflection will also lead to the VII very quickly wallowing and shaking, which makes the plane exceptionally bad at turning. Strange, as the XIII is quite a stable turner (not a tight turner, but a stable one). It seems to suffer from "S.E.5a syndrome" in that regard - which might be something to do with the prop pitch being too coarse, perhaps. 

The SPAD VII's big strengths are going to be top level speed and dive speed which are, well, SPAD-ish. Unlike the XIII, however, the VII stands very little chance against aware opponents and will be very hard-pressed to stay in a prolonged fight against any German scout. 

In conclusion: 

Hopeless in a fight, good at running away. If you don't kill the enemy plane on the first or second attack, you'll just have to run and hope you don't get your wings sniped off. 

The S.VII reminds me a bit of the N28 - and I think similar tactics should be applied. Hunt in packs, don't hang around if your first attack wasn't good. I can picture the S.VII being effective with the right amount of patience, but frustrating to fight in. 

(P.S - if you get your wings hit, the flutter speed glitch will rip your wings off in a power dive).

Edited October 2, 2021 by US93_Larner

[US103_Baer]

4 hours ago, US93_Larner said:

(P.S - if you get your wings hit, the flutter speed glitch will rip your wings off in a power dive).

 

THIS!

Unfortunately its a non-starter until the flutter bug is sorted.

Weak wing DM + Flutter Bug = near impossible to get out of a power dive if you take a couple of wing hits.

Edited October 2, 2021 by US28_Baer

[J2_Trupobaw]

I did try some diving attacks in it in actual PvP and, well, it's a rattlecage. I surely have been scoring some hits, but was not able to either aim well in first go or press the attack.

My initial reaction was I'll rather stick to my Dolphin, but she decided to shed her wings because some Halb Ai gunner put two bullets through them 30 minutes earlier... 

[No.23_Triggers]

On 10/3/2021 at 3:19 PM, J2_Trupobaw said:

I did try some diving attacks in it in actual PvP and, well, it's a rattlecage. I surely have been scoring some hits, but was not able to either aim well in first go or press the attack.

Pretty similar experiences in the Flugpark yesterday vs a D.Va. Just about managed to get two passes out of the VII before it was time to leave, and the single Vickers only really tickled the Alb. 

I find it particularly odd comparing the S.VII's manoeuvrability when dogfighting to the S.XIII's - IMHO, the XIII completely outclasses the VII in every way, when (if the pilot accounts are anything to go by) the opposite should be true.

(For reference, a FC SPAD XIII in a manoeuvring dogfight: )
 

Spoiler

 

Sgt. Martenot of Esc.94, who would take a VII in favour of an XIII for individual flights, said that "Despite the single gun and lower speed, it was more manoeuvrable than the XIII" (According to Jon Guttmann, Martenot believed the VII was manoeuvrable enough to "hold its own" against German scouts)...there was even one account that states that Guynemer completely outmanoeuvred a Sopwith Camel in a friendly 'mock dogfight' with a Canadian pilot! 

...just have to get used to the VII as-is, I guess. Or not, and stick with the XIII. Unless the devs ever decide at some point in the future to revisit WW1 FMs (which I think really should happen at some point, especially if there are going to be brand-new FMs with the Snipe / Siemens...!) 

EDIT: Aha, here's that quote about Guynemer vs Camel: 
 

Spoiler

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by US93_Larner

[JG1_Butzzell]

Me thinks thou dost place the SPAD VII on too high a pedestal.

 

MVR recorded a kill while flying a Halb D.II  and then there is the fight between Guynemer and Udet.  That was pretty much a stalemate.  So you might want to dial back the expectations.

[US41_Low]

59 minutes ago, JG1_Butzzell said:

Me thinks thou dost place the SPAD VII on too high a pedestal.

 

MVR recorded a kill while flying a Halb D.II  and then there is the fight between Guynemer and Udet.  That was pretty much a stalemate.  So you might want to dial back the expectations.

I know I’m not the sharpest tool in the tool shed, so could you explain how Guynemer v Udet was a stalemate?

[[F.Circus]Gorn_Captain]

57 minutes ago, JG1_Butzzell said:

Me thinks thou dost place the SPAD VII on too high a pedestal.

 

MVR recorded a kill while flying a Halb D.II  and then there is the fight between Guynemer and Udet.  That was pretty much a stalemate.  So you might want to dial back the expectations.

 

I know very little about SPADs, I can't even begin to say how accurate the game's modelling is, but these sorts of anecdotes aren't remotely useful in judging the quality of an aeroplane without masses upon masses of context which I suspect doesn't exist. 

 

While relative performance of aircraft is important, it is not the only thing that decides the outcome of a fight. No matter how superior your aircraft is, it won't save you from being surprised, or ambushed, or improperly trained, or caught with mechanical trouble, or facing a superior pilot, or someone who has an altitude advantage, or being outnumbered, or suffering the effects of fatigue or cold. etc etc The fact that a SPAD was shot down by what would be considered an inferior aircraft is hardly surprising, nor is it a comment on the merits of either plane. Unless we have detailed accounts of the fight (if there even was a fight and not the simple shooting of an unaware opponent in the back). preferably accounts from the pilot on each side, and witnesses on the ground, we can't draw any conclusions from it on how well either aircraft perform. And even then those accounts wouldn't be entirely reliable, due to poor memories and the likelihood of people misinterpreting what they saw. Tacview didn't exist back then after all.

 

I've lost my camel to an albatros in game, and likewise been shot down in my DVIIf to a nieuport of all things. Those facts in isolation could be used to suggest the camel & DVIIf simply aren't far superior to the alby and the n28, which would be a pretty absurd claim to anyone that's spent much time in any of them in game.

[No.23_Starling]

1 hour ago, JG1_Butzzell said:

Me thinks thou dost place the SPAD VII on too high a pedestal.

 

MVR recorded a kill while flying a Halb D.II  and then there is the fight between Guynemer and Udet.  That was pretty much a stalemate.  So you might want to dial back the expectations.

I don’t think anyone here has suggested it was another Dviif. It’s more that it’s bugged right now so if you dive it she shakes like Bam Bam from the Flintstones is at the controls, and regains energy like Fred after an ultra marathon (or whatever cave people ran before Hellenic civilisation).

Edited October 4, 2021 by US93_Rummell
Spelling error

[No.23_Triggers]

5 hours ago, [F.Circus]Gorn_Captain said:

 

I know very little about SPADs, I can't even begin to say how accurate the game's modelling is, but these sorts of anecdotes aren't remotely useful in judging the quality of an aeroplane without masses upon masses of context which I suspect doesn't exist. 

 

While relative performance of aircraft is important, it is not the only thing that decides the outcome of a fight. No matter how superior your aircraft is, it won't save you from being surprised, or ambushed, or improperly trained, or caught with mechanical trouble, or facing a superior pilot, or someone who has an altitude advantage, or being outnumbered, or suffering the effects of fatigue or cold. etc etc

Refer back to the story of Guynemer outflying a camel - and the reporting pilot's apparent incredulity! "Guynemer outflew a Camel in a SPAD - absolutely!". A camel should have flown rings around a SPAD, but Guynemer was a dogfighting virtuoso. 

And yes, @JG1_Butzzell, it's as the others say - I'm not hoping the SPAD VII is buffed into some kind of super-ship...just want it to be a bit more SPAD VII-ish - AKA, a slower, more manoeuvrable, less-well-armed SPAD XIII ?

At the moment it's falling well short in the manoeuvrability department - it can about match the XIII's turn radius, but its energy drop-off is so pronounced that it can't do much past a half-turn before it's a sitting duck. By comparison, the XIII is manoeuvrable enough to stay out of a hun's line of fire so long as you have some altitude to spare, and it retains its energy well enough to comfortably sustain a turn, fight in the vertical and punish enemy mistakes in an "angles fight" - which seemingly aligns nicely with my understanding of Sgt. Martenot's observations of the VII - that it can "hold its own" against German types. 

Edited October 4, 2021 by US93_Larner

[ZachariasX]

6 hours ago, US93_Larner said:

At the moment it's falling well short in the manoeuvrability department - it can about match the XIII's turn radius, but its energy drop-off is so pronounced that it can't do much past a half-turn before it's a sitting duck.

And what makes you think that in reality this should not the case with biplanes in general?

[US103_Baer]

I think the expectation of SPAD 7 performance wasn't so much based on historical accounts,  but on RoF performance, (which now or less matched historical accounts)

 

Unless noted otherwise, we've been essentially getting a port from RoF.

But the SPAD7 is way different and that is the thing that's so hard to understand. 

 

Yes, all the planes lose energy faster in FC, but relativity between them had been kinda maintained. So how can the Spad 7 180 drop off so much, when the Alb, PD3a, Spad13 and other thin wings don't?

 

Its top speed is good, engine seems right with rpm maybe even slightly higher than specs.  Steady climb is ok too, but as soon as the stick is pulled back a fraction the plane dies. 

 

This may absolutely be typical biplane behaviour, but then why aren't all the other planes like this?

There may be a very good answer and if some aerodynamicist  knows,  please share. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by US28_Baer

[J2_Trupobaw]

The 

4 hours ago, US28_Baer said:

I think the expectation of SPAD 7 performance wasn't so much based on historical accounts,  but on RoF performance, (which now or less matched historical accounts)

 

Unless noted otherwise, we've been essentially getting a port from RoF.

But the SPAD7 is way different and that is the thing that's so hard to understand. 

 

Yes, all the planes lose energy faster in FC, but relativity between them had been kinda maintained.

Pfalz D.XII is also jump in strange direction. Given her historical performance I didn't worry much, but she suffers from similar symptoms. Let's see what Tripe looks like (although I didn't fly that enough in RoF to have a comparison).

[No.23_Gaylion]

Pdxii is great, I actually like flying that thing.

[ZachariasX]

13 hours ago, US28_Baer said:

This may absolutely be typical biplane behaviour, but then why aren't all the other planes like this?

That's a good point, they should all be, as (with the exception of the Fokker Parasol) their induced drag is terrible. Holtzauge made a simulation about expected zoom climb behaviour, and you can expect some (AFAIR) ~300 meters gain in altitude in the SPAD13 and the SE5a after a dive near Vne, and some ~200+ meters in the AlbDva and the FokkerD7 doing the same. Hence in reality, the "boom and zoom" wouldn't really be a thing as you hardly get out of gun range. RoF was terrible at induced drag by essentially having very, very little of it, making the Breguet one of the best turning planes of the sim. It was probably also a root cause for the genesis of the fag and the clown waggon. Years of having that maybe formed some expectations. Then again as you say, we should not have planes that behave inconsistent. There is variation in zoom performance, considerably so, if you look at the Entente scouts mentioned vs Central scouts mentioned. but not to a degree where one just own the other.

[NO.20_Krispy_Duck]

The orthodox view was that the Spad VII 180hp was slower, not armed as well, and perhaps a bit less stoutly built than the XIII. The trade-off was that the VII 180 had more responsive handling, especially as speed dropped off a bit. Immediate and sustained turn were reportedly better in the VII 180, though the XIII had a speed and dive advantage. The XIII's biggest hamstring, once the rounded wing debacle of the early XIIIs was solved, was reliability in the form of the geared engine. There was significant downtime in many squadrons when XIII geared engine mechanisms would break down. Then the engine itself had a significant re-build period. Maintenance reports indicated you could rebuild several of the single-valve Gnome rotaries in the time it took to do a rebuild of the XIII's HS engine and gearing.

 

A pilot using the style of Guynemer might benefit more from the VII's crisper handling, whereas a hit-and-run artist like Fonck might benefit more from the XIII's ability to obtain speed and to dive. I agree something feels off about the VII 180hp, even if you set aside the ROF history and compare to the XIII we already have in FC. It doesn't feel quite as crisp handling as it should, though it's still fairly fast overall.

 

The thing that worries me about piecemeal additions/porting of aircraft is that it can become easy to lose sight of how they are affected by the conditions in the simulation relative to one another and not just compared to their ROF predecessor or in isolation.

[No.23_Triggers]

3 hours ago, NO.20_Krispy_Duck said:

The thing that worries me about piecemeal additions/porting of aircraft is that it can become easy to lose sight of how they are affected by the conditions in the simulation relative to one another and not just compared to their ROF predecessor or in isolation.

We went back and tested the VII in RoF and had a bit of a weird revelation...the VII really didn't feel very much different...which completely baffled us because I seem to distinctly remember it being a lot lighter and nimbler than the XIII...which isn't the case. Or at least, I wouldn't call it 'nimble'. The controls feel light and the turn feels better, but it can't dogfight anywhere near as well as a SPAD XIII.

Perhaps I wasn't as used to throwing SPADs around like I do now...but still, I was quite surprised! The overt shakiness wasn't as bad, but the energy retention was maybe only marginally better and it still couldn't really press a BnZ attack. 

Nonetheless, the FC VII still feels pretty underwhelming compared to the XIII. I've been doing some more tests for the VII (and several other planes) in a flat turn and I'm thinking it's something to do with the elevator, but I can't put my finger on it. You can apply quite a bit of back-pressure on the stick while manoeuvring an XIII and it'll turn smoothly, sustain a turn pretty well, and pick up energy when the nose is below the horizon-line. Obviously it'll struggle to outmanoeuvre anything with crosses on its wings, but it definitely feels capable in combat manoeuvres. The VII seems to have a tighter turning radius, but it gets extremely shaky and anaemic as well as bleeding off speed excessively in any kind of manoeuvre, even with its nose below the horizon-line. 

With the XIII, it seems like you don't really kill your energy until you're pulling the stick all the way back. The VII, by comparison, starts to protest heavily with a much 'lighter' pull. 

Edited October 6, 2021 by US93_Larner

[J2_Trupobaw]

On 10/4/2021 at 6:58 PM, JG1_Butzzell said:

Me thinks thou dost place the SPAD VII on too high a pedestal.

 

MVR recorded a kill while flying a Halb D.II  and then there is the fight between Guynemer and Udet.  That was pretty much a stalemate.  So you might want to dial back the expectations.

MvR recorded a kill against 150 hp Spad 7 flown by RFC pilot. RFC pilots being what they were in early 1917, his opponent likely wasn't highly experienced and tried to turn fight, on top of flying wrong plane.

 

The fight between Udet and Guynemer is apocryphical at best (no sources other than Udet mentioning it) and ended with Guynemer letting Udet go (not exactly a stalemate).

[NO.20_Krispy_Duck]

14 hours ago, US93_Larner said:

We went back and tested the VII in RoF and had a bit of a weird revelation...the VII really didn't feel very much different...which completely baffled us because I seem to distinctly remember it being a lot lighter and nimbler than the XIII...which isn't the case. Or at least, I wouldn't call it 'nimble'. The controls feel light and the turn feels better, but it can't dogfight anywhere near as well as a SPAD XIII.

Perhaps I wasn't as used to throwing SPADs around like I do now...but still, I was quite surprised! The overt shakiness wasn't as bad, but the energy retention was maybe only marginally better and it still couldn't really press a BnZ attack. 

Nonetheless, the FC VII still feels pretty underwhelming compared to the XIII. I've been doing some more tests for the VII (and several other planes) in a flat turn and I'm thinking it's something to do with the elevator, but I can't put my finger on it. You can apply quite a bit of back-pressure on the stick while manoeuvring an XIII and it'll turn smoothly, sustain a turn pretty well, and pick up energy when the nose is below the horizon-line. Obviously it'll struggle to outmanoeuvre anything with crosses on its wings, but it definitely feels capable in combat manoeuvres. The VII seems to have a tighter turning radius, but it gets extremely shaky and anaemic as well as bleeding off speed excessively in any kind of manoeuvre, even with its nose below the horizon-line. 

With the XIII, it seems like you don't really kill your energy until you're pulling the stick all the way back. The VII, by comparison, starts to protest heavily with a much 'lighter' pull. 

 

It felt to me like a combination of becoming more unstable with pulling and an overall deader feel of the controls. And for now, a single MG with 300-400 rounds of ammunition is going to struggle badly with the most commonly encountered German planes because they tend to just absorb bullets without much effect. Most of the time of the time we take plenty of extra MGs and assume it will take a lot of ammunition to bring down a German plane. Updates to the damage model seem to be on-going, so perhaps this will change. I suppose if you are very, very good shot and consistently get pilot kills or fires, then maybe it works.

[No.23_Triggers]

9 hours ago, NO.20_Krispy_Duck said:

It felt to me like a combination of becoming more unstable with pulling and an overall deader feel of the controls. And for now, a single MG with 300-400 rounds of ammunition is going to struggle badly with the most commonly encountered German planes because they tend to just absorb bullets without much effect. Most of the time of the time we take plenty of extra MGs and assume it will take a lot of ammunition to bring down a German plane. Updates to the damage model seem to be on-going, so perhaps this will change. I suppose if you are very, very good shot and consistently get pilot kills or fires, then maybe it works.

The one thing that does feel "right" for me with VII / XIII is that, after flying the VII and switching to the XIII I say "damn, did the XIII always feel so heavy?!" - but yeah, that's a nice summary...more unstable with pulling. It seems with a gentle pull the SPAD VII can sustain turns at around 150 - 170 km/h - about where the SPAD XIII feels best in a turn as well - but with a slightly wider turning circle. 

But, by any means, I absolutely wouldn't call the VII more manoeuvrable than the XIII by any stretch. Usually I'd never use FC's AI to test anything because, well, they're useless ? but for once I think they actually help me illustrate a point - I decided to tail-chase an AI Albatros in a SPAD VII, then an XIII yesterday. Bearing in mind that the AI won't turn anywhere near as tightly as a player would, in a VII I just couldn't keep with the Alb in a sustained turn - whereas in the XIII I could easily pull lead all day, with enough airspeed left to actually overtake the Alb while doing so...! 

EDIT: Here's that video: 
 

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by US93_Larner

[US41_Low]

You have to aim for meat or metal. It is known, Khaleesi.

[unreasonable]

On 10/6/2021 at 5:30 PM, J2_Trupobaw said:

MvR recorded a kill against 150 hp Spad 7 flown by RFC pilot. RFC pilots being what they were in early 1917, his opponent likely wasn't highly experienced and tried to turn fight, on top of flying wrong plane.

 

The fight between Udet and Guynemer is apocryphical at best (no sources other than Udet mentioning it) and ended with Guynemer letting Udet go (not exactly a stalemate).

 

According to Franks it was a 140HP version (the plane crashed behind German lines). The fight was 10 german vs 2 SPADS, one of whom broke off with a stoppage. The pilot shot down had 1 hr 22 minutes in the SPAD when he went on the patrol! He also said he had been having engine trouble and was trying to rectify it when shot down.

 

Hard to read too much into the technical performance or flight model of the aircraft under the circumstances....

 

I hesitate to opine on technical issues of the FM, but one relevant fact might be that the XIII, while heavier than the VII, and very similar wing loading, has a significantly better (~20%)  power/weight ratio. That might improve it's ability to sustain a turn - but you really need one of the aero-engineers to determine the difference.  

Edited October 7, 2021 by unreasonable

[Guest deleted@219798]

Spad VII 180hp first whines and whinges. Quite a common theme in this forum, my favourite planes don't perform as well as I think they should and enemy planes are built like brick out houses. quite entertaining reading, good for a laugh.

[PaulTheSalty]

26 minutes ago, kestrel444x500 said:

my favourite planes don't perform as well as I think they should and enemy planes are built like brick out houses.

Tell you what, I’ll sit down with you for emotional support and we can cry it out together.

 

Talking about flight and damage model issues isn’t a bad thing. Maybe if you had substantial evidence supporting your thoughts you could get your favorite planes corrected. Maybe not. It’s up to the devs.

 

If nobody provides feedback then they won’t know if there’s issues. The Spad VII has trash flutter. Definitely a bad bug, and not even in the same realm as a FM/DM that is unaligned to each player’s biased expectations.