Game Version 4.604 Discussion: SPAD 7 180 HP, Armament Tweaks, Damage Tweaks, Pilot Physiology Tweaks and Much More...

[ZachariasX]

Now that is one big list of changes. Fantastic work by everyone involved! 

[IckyATLAS]

I applaud and am impressed. Many comments of the past, some made very long ago have been considered and corrections made.

Excellent, you development team are excellent and Jason is doing a fantastic job in improving this sim and also taking care of all the details.

I am also very happy to see that one request that I made multiple times over the last years about having gunners aboard ships will be in a future update answered positively.

Thank you again for that.

 

[CIA_Yankee_]

Looks like a fantastic series of changes. The physiology improvements is a great surprise too, well done!

[ShampooX]

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I like to see the continuous improvement, bravo.  With every update I feel like a kid on Christmas... "maybe we'll see some new Panzer custom skins".  At least this time we see some new skins for the KV and SU, but it's like watching your sister get her favorite Christmas present, and all you get is socks.....again.

[Hoss]

1 hour ago, J2_Bidu said:

 

The modelling of their accuracy is now more accurate. ?

 

Thanks for the update!!! ?

No, it means with more than ONE gun and the convergence you set the dispersion of the four, six, eight guns dispersion is changed IAW with the new data they have.  Nothing is more or less accurate than the person operating the gun. 

[Jade_Monkey]

New content updates are always exciting but quality and polish releases are the updates that steal the show.

 

Thanks devs for this patch! 

[grcurmudgeon]

Ouch, I have to watch my hard landings a bit more, they hurt now...

[Blitzen]

This update today is great for my own selfish reasons : I leave this week for two weeks away from my PC and away from GB ( sigh..) but because of the update today which I get to enjoy...) I won't have to worry about an update while I'm away -I'll be free to enjoy everyday sailing through the Greek Islands...Yassu,Yassu...

[oc2209]

One more super-slow-mo set of clips here, just for fun.

 

Yeah, I consider this fun.

 

Here's the explosion from my earlier clip, from the 109's perspective:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Appears to be a few lucky hits into the fuel tank; it almost certainly was not an ammo explosion in my opinion. The tank was about 70% full if I recall.

 

*Correction: it looks like it was an ammo hit after all.

 

Here's a different sortie:

 

Spoiler

 

 

This one is useful because it shows the dispersion pattern closer to convergence. I opened fire at 230m, with convergence still set to 200m. 138 rounds were fired.

Edited September 21, 2021 by oc2209

[[DBS]TH0R]

56 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

I have my convergence set to 200m, and this shot was taken at about 400m:

 

  Hide contents

 

 

I only fired this many rounds:

 

 

What's the starting ammo for a P-51 with extra ammo? 2060 or so?

 

Tiny burst, regardless of the exact number.

 

I think there is some extra punch to the .50s, because I never exploded 109s before. Certainly not from bursts that short.

 

I think American pilots are going to be pretty happy with these changes.

 

I exploded a 109 few days ago in IL-2 1941 (was then shot down immediately after by colliding with one of this wing that struck my plane). Never experienced that before in this game, so I don't think it is related to this patch.

 

I use 270m convergence but am thinking of changing it to a more historical 335m since now we have dispersion, to allow for easier deflection shooting.

 

Nice shooting btw.

Edited September 21, 2021 by [DBS]TH0R

[oc2209]

14 minutes ago, [DBS]TH0R said:

 

I exploded a 109 few days ago in IL-2 1941 (was then shot down immediately after by colliding with one of this wing that struck my plane). Never experienced that before in this game, so I don't think it is related to this patch.

 

I use 270m convergence but am thinking of changing it to a more historical 335m since now we have dispersion, to allow for easier deflection shooting.

 

Nice shooting btw.

 

Regarding explosion chances, you may be right; but nevertheless I am impressed by a few .50 AP causing an explosion at 400m. I'm just not used to those results. Engine fires were the norm at that distance, but not explosions. I typically only got explosions much closer in, with a higher concentration of strikes.

 

I think dispersion will result in a considerably higher frequency of these 'lucky hits' both with pilot kills and explosions. As it should.

 

I was testing the P-38 earlier versus a Typhoon, and seized the engine instantly, set it on fire, and killed the pilot with the same short burst. This was at very close range, however. Still, I feel like overall lethality has increased for whatever reasons.

 

*Edit:

 

And thanks!

Edited September 21, 2021 by oc2209

[FTC_Knipser]

As someone already mentioned, it's those kind of updates that are the most important ones, especially to the multiplayer community! So thank you very much for this patch. This just shows again, that you guys are actually listening to the community. ?

Edited September 22, 2021 by JG77_Knipser

[Han]

12 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

engine fires were the norm at that distance, but not explosions.

What is the difference between 200m hit to fuel tank and 400m hit to fuel tank in terms of possibility of fuel tank explosion?

[oc2209]

2 minutes ago, Han said:

What is the difference between 200m hit and 400m hit in terms of possibility of fuel tank explosion?

 

I would imagine greater penetration values in the nearer case would result in more damage being applied for certain calculations, and that increases the probability of causing an explosion?

 

Looking back at my clip, I am starting to wonder if it wasn't an ammo explosion in the nose. Because right before the explosion, you see tracer going into the nose, not the fuel tank area.

[Thad]

56 minutes ago, 352nd_Hoss said:

Nothing is more or less accurate than the person operating the gun. 

 

Hey, I resemble that remark. ?

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

After a couple quick sp flights in FC,  looking good so far!?Thanks development team!

[CSW_Tommy544]

2 hours ago, J2_Bidu said:

 

The modelling of their accuracy is now more accurate. ?

 

 

"The modelling of the accuracy of MGs is now more accurate by modeling them less accurate." ?

 

Awesome update, devs, excellent job as always! ?

[Han]

35 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

I would imagine greater penetration values in the nearer case would result in more damage being applied for certain calculations, and that increases the probability of causing an explosion?

 

Looking back at my clip, I am starting to wonder if it wasn't an ammo explosion in the nose. Because right before the explosion, you see tracer going into the nose, not the fuel tank area.

 

I've looked again - it was difinitelly ammo box explosion.

But still - what is the real difference?

200m hit - 775m/s impact velocity, 22mm armour penetration

400m hit - 700 m/s impact velocity, 19mm armour penetration

 

Yep there is difference, but do you realy think that this difference is enough to say:

"It's ok to have explosion by hit at 200m and unacceptable to have explosion at 400m"

?

 

Just FYI:

109K backseat armour is 8mm,

armoured headrest 10mm

armoured glass headrest is 60mm (means 8mm armour steel analog)

dural plate behing fuel tank is 20mm (means 5mm armour steel analog)

 

so as you see at 400m .50 is double-capable to penetrate any armour of 109K if hit strict from behind.

 

Using knowing nomogramm of .50 we see that even with 30° angleled hit we can penetrate 10mm at ~660m.

Only in case of hit angle 45° - 10mm can be penetrated only on 200m. But is it "only"? I suppose it's damn far for 45°.

 

PS

for 0° hit angle .50 can penetrate 10mm at 1100m range

 

PPS

All these numbers are for ground tests offcourse. When you firing from one plane to another - everything will change. Even if shhter and target have the same speed - bullet-target relative speed will fall faster than equal absolute bullet speed in ground test (because bullet absolute speed in air test is higher and drag is higher even in case if bullet-to-target speed is the same.

From other hand, if altitude is great enough - drag is falling due to air density fall.

From third hand, if you fire with hight incline at high target - speed will fall much faster.

From fourth hand, if you firing at lower target (significantly lower one) - speed will fall much longer.

 

All these aspects are taken in count in the game engine because bullets are physically in-time modelled objects with drag and mass, not "table-counted trajectory".

[357th_Dog]

48 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

I would imagine greater penetration values in the nearer case would result in more damage being applied for certain calculations, and that increases the probability of causing an explosion?

 

Looking back at my clip, I am starting to wonder if it wasn't an ammo explosion in the nose. Because right before the explosion, you see tracer going into the nose, not the fuel tank area.

Just as a heads up, in the 109 the ammo is stored co-located with the fuel tank area. The ammo boxes for the Mg's are loaded from below, along with the cannon shells. 

More or less below and aft of the guns themselves, just forward of the cockpit floor

[[110]xJammer]

24 minutes ago, Han said:

 <snip>

 

Very informative, thank you!

 

Curious to know whether the engine (and if yes, how) considers bullet tumble post penetration (i.e. wood/metal framing/skin), is the liquid fuel itself considered as well? (i.e. somewhat like shooting through a block of water).

 

And with regard to fuel tank explosions -- does the DM consider the ambient temperature of the fuel (i.e. flashpoint), and thus vary results depending on weather and altitude? (I wouldn't think a single incendiary round would be able to boil off enough vapour to cause a full tank explosion all by itself, esp. considering the bullet velocity and how quickly it would submerge/exit the tank)

 

 

P.S. Are empty-at-spawn fuel tanks still considered as explosive?

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by [110]xJammer

[Han]

Fuel tanks are the best bullet-stoppers (if bullets are not too large).

For instance: if tank hit by .50 from 200m, than 1..1.5m of fuel will stop bullet at all.

Amount of fuel affects the probability of explosion.

[Denum]

If I recall right full fuselage tank reduced .50s from fully penetrating by about 70%. 

 

Not that it's going to make a big difference with a P47 hammering you though. 

[Han]

7 minutes ago, Denum said:

If I recall right full fuselage tank reduced .50s from fully penetrating by about 70%. 

 

Not that it's going to make a big difference with a P47 hammering you though. 

 

It's around this. This depends on lenght of bullet pass in luquid.

[oc2209]

35 minutes ago, Han said:

 

I've looked again - it was difinitelly ammo box explosion.

But still - what is the real difference?

200m hit - 775m/s impact velocity, 22mm armour penetration

400m hit - 700 m/s impact velocity, 19mm armour penetration

 

Yep there is difference, but do you realy think that this difference is enough to say:

"It's ok to have explosion by hit at 200m and unacceptable to have explosion at 400m"?

 

Yeah, I agree about the explosion cause now.

 

Also, just to be clear, I wasn't criticizing the explosion at 400m. I was only saying that I rarely/never caused them at those ranges previously, and it was good to see it happen now. To me it implies the dispersion and/or bullet changes have increased the probability of causing meaningful damage.

[CountZero]

I see no differance in how .50 works now and in how it worked before when i shoot at ais, i can see big differance in how g stamina works now compared how it was before, im not blacking out in spit9 so easy now, and i can now finaly see at what +G tempest wing brakes if im going around 700kmh. So it seams update works ok on my PC.

[Han]

And once again - there is no realy DRAMATIC change on .50 bullet mass or muzzle speed in 4.604.

Mass increased from 42g to correct 46g.

Muzzle speed - from 840m/s to correct 864m/s.

So muzzle energy have increased ONLY for 16%.

Bullet armour penetration at 500m increased from 15mm to 17.5mm.

 

So guys, any feelings about .50 become Death-Star pilot killer or something - is a kind of placeebo. Yes, it's capability have increased, but just a little.

 

But MAY be doubling of dispercion (due to new reading of the source data based on additional data providing) on M2.50 have increased the possibility of enemy pilot's back appear on one of the bullet's trajectory.

[Guest deleted@83466]

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So guys, any feelings about .50 become Death-Star pilot killer or something - is a kind of placeebo. Yes, it's capability have increased, but just a little.

nice visual, because we all know these 9 seconds ?

 

 

[JG27_Mainz]

Nice to see this update hit live.

[Beazil]

What an exhaustive list of adjustments and changes.  Thanks for all the updates.  I am a bit surprised to see this update so soon since the most recent one.  Especially with that list of updates.  Looking forward to experiencing them all.  S!

[=SqSq=Civilprotection]

Just curious, have the gyro sights needed to be reworked at all to correspond with the new velocity curves?

[iflyflightsims]

Great update, devs!

[Diggun]

Thanks all round for this update. There are so many nice features and quality of life improvements it seems silly to pick just one, but I would just like to single out the work you guys have done on the tracers. Gone are the previous 'flying lightsabers' and the new effects really look the part! That and the new hit effects really add to the immersion for me. Thank you for all your continued under the hood work! 

[TheWarsimmer]

Great update and appreciated. Had a lot of fun in Finnish already with it. I don't want to make a new thread so this might be the most appropriate place to ask- does anyone know if the new location specific damage decals are being worked on? Last I recall the mustang had it and it would be slowly added to new aircraft over time.

[NoelGallagher]

amazing update!

now i can hear the proper radio when i want to fly p-40 ,hurricane ,a20,p-39 as RAF or USAF

 

also plz don't stop improving the tank crew 

DVD was one of kind 

maybe adding some more camo for tanks plz

there are some good user made skins 

you guys all know that 

plz implement it in to the game 

 

after testing with new update 

i'm not sure about what this means 

" On all player controllable tanks the shading from the sun in a dark area affects gunsights;

can you guys elaborate this with more detailed explanation plz?

 

thx!

Edited September 22, 2021 by NoelGallagher

[oc2209]

1 hour ago, Han said:

So guys, any feelings about .50 become Death-Star pilot killer or something - is a kind of placeebo. Yes, it's capability have increased, but just a little.

 

But MAY be doubling of dispercion (due to new reading of the source data based on additional data providing) on M2.50 have increased the possibility of enemy pilot's back appear on one of the bullet's trajectory.

 

Well, I do shoot using The Force rather than conventional aiming techniques. I don't know what everyone else prefers.

 

In all seriousness, I really do believe the new dispersion is noticeable. I'm having a lot of fun with it, anyway.

 

34 rounds to set fire to a 109K:

 

Spoiler

 

 

When I fired, I thought it was a little too high to hit the engine. I think the dispersion might've made up for that.

 

Here's a 1/32 replay of an excellent cluster of shots that I believe shows off the proper 'shotgun effect' nicely:

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Imperator_TFD]

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2. LCI(L), Landing Craft Infantry (Large), developed for Battle of Normandy was added to the sim (no visible crew yet)

 

Just out of curiosity will visible crew be added to previous ships at some point too?

 

Secondly, with the visible crew will strafing a ship have any impact on that crew?  For example currently when ground based AA guns are strafed the crew temporarily leave the weapon which makes suppression strafing a viable tactic.  It would be nice to see similar effects possible for ships too.

 

Thanks for the update too, very much appreciate the QoL changes made.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Imperator_TFD

[Hoss]

52 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

Well, I do shoot using The Force rather than conventional aiming techniques. I don't know what everyone else prefers.

 

In all seriousness, I really do believe the new dispersion is noticeable. I'm having a lot of fun with it, anyway.

 

34 rounds to set fire to a 109K:

 

  Hide contents

 

 

When I fired, I thought it was a little too high to hit the engine. I think the dispersion might've made up for that.

 

Here's a 1/32 replay of an excellent cluster of shots that I believe shows off the proper 'shotgun effect' nicely:

 

  Hide contents

 

 

 

with the new tracers it's hard to tell where your rounds are going unless you zoom in a lot.  The eye will fool you into thinking you are missing but in fact you are not.  It will take some getting used to, especially if you are on the receiving end of six or eight of them (less tracer to see before you are dead)  I wonder if servers will now limit the Mustang to four guns, and the Jug to six to make it fair again... LOL jk...

Edited September 22, 2021 by 352nd_Hoss

[No.23_Triggers]

Flying Circus control damage correction is a huge breath of fresh air. Big step in the right direction for Flying Circus DM! Looking forwards to future improvements.  Dispersion and tracers are nice touches too - it'll definitely make gunnery a little trickier in FC, which is for the better IMO. 

Was a bit puzzled about the SPAD VII 180hp though...flew it pretty extensively for about 3-4 hours and it felt pretty much identical in all handling qualities (particularly energy retention, or lack thereof) to the SPAD VII 150hp. After some general PvP tests against German planes I did some VII 150hp vs 180hp PvP tests with a squad-mate, and it seemed like the 180hp was marginally better at retaining energy - but almost indistinguishably so, and both variants of the SPAD VII were almost perfectly matched.  

...that's a huge difference from RoF, where the 180 outclassed the 150 by a pretty sizeable margin. 

Just a little curious about that...

It also appears that Spad VII 180hp high-speed flutter is bugged (extremely excessive shaking at flutter speeds when diving). This was a problem with the 150hp SPAD VII as well. Haven't had the time to submit a proper bug report but have been meaning to get around to it. 

EDIT: Oh, and...

 56. SPAD VII.C1 150h.p. and SPAD XIII.C1 excessive batting amplitude has been reduced;
 

I'm not sure what this means? 

Edited September 22, 2021 by US93_Larner

[oc2209]

2 hours ago, 352nd_Hoss said:

 

with the new tracers it's hard to tell where your rounds are going unless you zoom in a lot.  The eye will fool you into thinking you are missing but in fact you are not.  It will take some getting used to, especially if you are on the receiving end of six or eight of them (less tracer to see before you are dead)  I wonder if servers will now limit the Mustang to four guns, and the Jug to six to make it fair again... LOL jk...

 

Oddly enough, I'm not yet noticing the new dispersion with the P-47. It felt more obvious with the P-51's guns. I'm talking about that circular shotgun pattern of hits, specifically. Here's the best Jug example I have so far:

 

Spoiler

 

 

This is a near perfect confluence of 200m firing distance with 200m convergence. As you can see, the strikes are very concentrated. I've also tested the '47 against some Ju-88s and He-111s to see if the pattern is any more noticeable on their broad wings.

 

I'm not complaining. I just expected the Jug's extra guns to make a slightly larger overall pattern than the '51.

 

PS: I also acknowledge that one of my wings' guns is probably missing the 190 in most of the hits. But those shot groups are still tight, even if they're only half my guns.

Edited September 22, 2021 by oc2209

[JG4_Moltke1871]

28. The effect of PTAB bursts landing far off the target has been restored;

I assume it’s just a visual effect?

Or have it any influence for the damage?