VR and the P-51 Malcolm Hood

[Talisman]

Dear Developers ,

 

Will the extra headroom afforded by the Malcolm Hood be well modelled for the benefit of VR headset users?

 

I ask especially because some current aircraft models make us VR headset users feel like we have much larger than usual heads and do not allow enough headroom before the "Limit VR View" is activated in the cockpit.  In short, I am concerned that we will not be able to get our virtual heads close enough to the virtual cockpit hood to benefit from the bubble canopy.  Any reassuring news from you concerning this matter would be gratefully received.

 

P.S.  Please note that the Malcolm Hood is not a Spitfire canopy and is larger than the Spitfire canopy.

 

Thank you.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman   

 

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by ACG_Talisman
word spacing and add P.S.

[Pict]

How does it work in the Spitfires? They have the Malcolm hood.

[sevenless]

Should be the same as with Spitfire IX and XIV, because it was the same hood.

[GOA_Karaya_VR]

Maybe it's time to make some short of refreshment with this issue , because the Vr Limits in the cockpit are problematic especially in forward and backward movements ( for example the 109 G Models while you are aiming, you can feel some kind of barrier that stops you, and the P38/51 in the gunsight ). Not all planes have this problem so high, one of the best representations in VR limits are the Fw190 Dora and Spitfires, but the other models of the 190 for example have this limitations.

[354thFG_Panda_]

If they could add the extra headroom for us 2D players as well it would be amazing!

[BlitzPig_EL]

Ummm... do you realize just how small these cockpits and canopies actually are?

 

Your screenshot of the rear view as proposed in the late Spits would only be possible with the canopy open, just as it is in the screenshot.  The 109s we have in the sim already have FAR better rear vis than a real one does.

[Beebop]

34 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Ummm... do you realize just how small these cockpits and canopies actually are?

+ 1000

I've had the good fortune to be able to sit in a couple of WWII cockpits.  Now I'm 6' tall, taller than most WWII pilots but even hunkered down those cockpits are just shoulder width.  The plane wasn't built with pilot comfort in mind, it was built to destroy enemy aircraft.  John Belushi would have never fit in a P-40 and even if he could have literally squeezed in he would have been quite uncomfortable by the time the plane reached the runway threshold for takeoff.

I have tons of respect for any fighter pilot or bomber pilot/crew who flew on those  l o n g,  l o n g  missions just for the discomfort they endured not to mention the life threatening environment they flew in.

 

Be glad you can stay comfortable in your cushy seat flying a simulation in 3D in air conditioned comfort. 

(and that you can refly!)

[40plus]

I fly exclusively in VR. I find the left, right, up, down limits to be reasonable if a little tiny bit to restrictive. Where i have an issue is the forward limit. I should be able to lean much further forward than is currently allowed.... In my opinion, of course.

 

On the topic of plane specific limits though, I'll be curious to see if a VR use acting as a gunner in the 410 will be able to take advantage of the side bulges while shooting.

[354thFG_Panda_]

3 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Ummm... do you realize just how small these cockpits and canopies actually are?

 

Your screenshot of the rear view as proposed in the late Spits would only be possible with the canopy open, just as it is in the screenshot.  The 109s we have in the sim already have FAR better rear vis than a real one does.

Yes the cockpit and canopies are small as you pointed out which is why it was developed to give more room to move head spit V to Spit IX and XIV. The new p51 should have this too. We do not at all see the difference in game with the current limits...

Edited September 4, 2021 by LR.TheRedPanda

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

@BlitzPig_EL Panda is right, there is no difference between the flat and bulged sides going from the Mk V to the Mk IX, and we should get some extra room as that's why the canopy was shaped like that. How much would be determined by the geometry in the 3D model and pilot head 3D size as well, but there should be some extra leeway.

[Bremspropeller]

21 hours ago, sevenless said:

Should be the same as with Spitfire IX and XIV, because it was the same hood.

 

Nah, that can't possibly be the case:

 

 

[sevenless]

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

Nah, that can't possibly be the case:

 

Not the same dimensions obviously, but that was not what I meant. The same shape, that is.

[sevenless]

12 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

@BlitzPig_EL Panda is right, there is no difference between the flat and bulged sides going from the Mk V to the Mk IX, and we should get some extra room as that's why the canopy was shaped like that. How much would be determined by the geometry in the 3D model and pilot head 3D size as well, but there should be some extra leeway.

 

Yep that would be very nice, if they could take that into account and retrofit that in the Mk.IX and XIV.

 

Here is what the V and prior IA and II, IIA canopies looked like. Bulge only on top, but not to the sides. From the film Dunkirk by Nolan. They AFAIK used two Mk.Is and a Mk.V for the shots.

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by sevenless

[Talisman]

Hi Folks,

 

Found some gen to help educate ourselves on the Malcolm Hood.  A very interesting read.  It appears that the Malcolm Hood is not just a Spitfire canopy at all (Spitfire canopy is smaller and Malcolm Hood is larger):

 

"In a thread a few days back, the origin of the P-51B/C Mustang's Malcolm canopy came up. Most sources will casually attribute the design of this canopy to the RAF or R. Malcolm Company, Ltd., and move on. Actually, it was designed by NAA engineers working in the UK. While it is true that the Mustang Malcolm is an outgrowth of a similar but smaller canopy made by Malcolm for the Spitfire, a lot of airframe structural engineering was done, most not visible, for attachment of the railing, etc. and this was done by NAA.

An excellent British history "the Mustang Story" by Ken Delve covers the tests of the Malcolm prototype on 7 December, 1942, on a Mustang IA.

Ken Delve cites the official test report (p.35-36): "In December a Mustang IA was with AFDU for trials on a new canopy arrangement: 'In accordance with instructions from Air Ministry (DAT) reference 11800, trials have been carried out on a Mustang IA aircraft, AG618 [note from me, this is a Mustang I serial#, not a IA] fitted with a sliding hood. This hood has been designed by North American representatives in the Country and fitted to the aircraft by RAF Henlow...'"

Thus, RAF records confirm that North American engineers did indeed design the prototype Malcolm hood.

The report points out interesting findings which I'll try to distill. The vast improvement in visibility is of course cited, as was easier pilot entry/exit from the cockpit. The hood was tested at all speeds closed, and found to convey a slight speed increase. Tests with the canopy open were made, and it was opened at 250MPH and closed at 300MPH (though difficult) and showed no signs of wanting to blow away at high speeds either open or closed. It reported two hands needed to move the canopy at speed [i believe production models added a hand crank like a D canopy] and there was a slight updraught in the cockpit when the lower main wheel doors were open. Disadvantages were having to relocate and rewire the radio antenna.

The report recommended all Mustangs be refitted. Oddly, the RAF mainly fitted them to fighter role Mustang III's while the TacR Allison Mustangs kept the original canopies until sufficient were available, and even then, Allison RAF Mustangs with Malcolms are rare. Indeed, the RAF would not fly Mustang III's in Northern Europe without Malcolms. (They did in the MTO, however.)

The USAAF, alternately, gave TacR aircraft first priority in getting Malcolms. All Allison engined F-6B's (TacR P-51A's) in the UK got them, and Merlin F-6C's had next priority, while fighter units with P-51B/C's flew whatever canopy they had until sufficient Malcolms became available, these going to flight and element leaders first, wingmen later.

The goal was to re-equip all Allied B/C Mustangs with Malcolms, but the war ended and sufficient D models were on hand by then. None-the-less, supply never caught up with demand right to the end. Brand new P-51C's, converted to F-6C's were being issued in the ETO as late as January, 1945 (planes with only 15 or 16 hours of slow-time break in on them) to TacR units, where B/C's were preferred over D's.

Post VE day, these Malcolm F-6C's, as well as F-6D/K's had priority to be shipped to the Pacific. Robert Gruenhagen's book shows a cocooned F-6C with Malcolm canopy being loaded on a ship in the UK to go to the Pacific. I'd pay good money to find out the fate of that plane! No records or photos have yet emerged to document whether these actually arrived somewhere. My guess is that they got dumped overboard somewhere.

Hope you found this interesting!

Mike

jerry brewer

malcolm hood

Sat Dec 4, 2004 12:24

81.178.209.34

Hi,

Just to add to the story extract from 'P-51 Mustang' by Roy Cross, Gerald Scarborough, and Bruce Robertson

'the cockpit had a three piece sideways folding hood which complicated jettison arrangements. Impetus came to improve the view came from Research and development; Factory representatives of North American in this country were asked to tackle the job and drawings for a makeshift canopy were completed by them. Later, the problem was taken out of their hands and given to the British engineering firm of R. Malcolm Limited, whose designers evolved a rearwards sliding blown perspex bubble hood, various sizes were tried and test flown and the one eventually chosen maintained the smooth airflow over the fuselage and actually increased speed.'

Cheers

Jerry

Terry McGrady

Very Interesting Michael

Sat Dec 4, 2004 11:25

213.122.61.240

As a rider to the RAF Malcolm Hood MKIII in Europe, like everything there is always an exception to the rule. In this case it is FZ145, PK*N of 315 SQ. This is one of the only A/C I've seen a photo of with the standard canopy in RAF (UK) service. It was on the Sq May-July 44. On 7th June, F/Sgt Ryszard Idrian claimed an ME109 15 miles SE of Rouen, flying this A/C"

 

Malcolm Hood for P-51B/C - Props - ARC Discussion Forums (arcforums.com)

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

Edited September 5, 2021 by ACG_Talisman