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Formation flying.....


Knarley-Bob
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Knarley-Bob

Other than "Auto Pilot", any tips for  trying" to fly in formation?🤷‍♂️

I'm getting better, but that ain't sayin' much.

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AndyJWest

Practice. Lots of practice. Just like the real thing. Or so they tell me, since I never really mastered it either.

 

If you are trying to formate on the IL-2 GB AI though, you will no doubt find it harder due to its incessant throttle-fiddling. I gave up trying to fly in the proper spot in a bomber campaign after getting increasingly frustrated with the way the lead aircraft used the throttle as an on-off switch. It's a lot easier in say a DCS jet, where the AI generally holds a steady speed, at least most of the time.

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1 hour ago, Knarley-Bob said:

Other than "Auto Pilot", any tips for  trying" to fly in formation?🤷‍♂️

I'm getting better, but that ain't sayin' much.

 

See the last four videos in Requiem's YouTube playlist Air Combat Maneuvering.

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PatrickAWlson

I am terrible at it, even more so if the AI is flying lead, but here's my best tips from a bad point of view:

1. Try to anticipate.  if you see you are catching up, ease upon the throttle early to ease in.

2. If I do catch up too fast I will do something like pitch up to bleed speed, then use the altitude to ease back. 

3. If they start making sharp turns get out of the way!  Again, I pitch up, clear them and then use the altitude to make up the separation.

4. I do not fly as close formation as the rest of the AI (IMHO they fly too close a formation for fighters at least).  If I did I would spend all of my time looking at them.

 

In the end, if I am not leading a flight I often end up looking more like a tail end Charlie than a member of the formation, but it works well enough.  Another advantage: if I am a bit above and away it lets me allow them to make the first move and attract attention.  Then, with a little more altitude and separation I can get in fast enough to help out, just as a good tail end Charlie should.

 

If you are flying with humans it's easier.  They will fly looser and not make abrupt course changes.

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ROCKET_KNUT
11 hours ago, Knarley-Bob said:

Other than "Auto Pilot", any tips for  trying" to fly in formation?🤷‍♂️

I'm getting better, but that ain't sayin' much.

If you see me online, form up, tell me via chat "I'm on your four o'clock". Shuold give you plenty of time for practicing all the way to the target. On the way back you will be alone though most of the times. 🤣

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Bremspropeller

Formation Flying takes a metric duckton of practice and mostly a lot of patience.

Things will come together at some point.

 

Most important is a steady formation-leader.

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Knarley-Bob

Well, there in lies the problem.... The AI flight leader seems to be all over the place. Right after one is told to patrol on your own, the flight leader calls out a certain formation. I'm getting to the point where if I'm in the general area it's good enough. Kinda hard to watch for bandits when all one is doing is trying not to collide with your flight.😬

6 hours ago, ROCKET_KNUT said:

If you see me online, form up, tell me via chat "I'm on your four o'clock". Shuold give you plenty of time for practicing all the way to the target. On the way back you will be alone though most of the times. 🤣

If I get a computer service that is fast enough to let me fly on-line, I will take you up on that.

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[DBS]TH0R

This should get you started - applies to all newer tutorials and what we have in-game:

 

 

On top of that, I will add that you should also trim your A/C for the speeds at which you intend to fly formation. Helps immensly.

 

After that it is just like riding a bike, practice, practice and practice. Once learned it never goes away.

Edited by [DBS]TH0R
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Knarley-Bob

10 ft.?😅 Not in my life time😅

Thanks for the vid. was an interesting watch.

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BraveSirRobin
3 hours ago, Knarley-Bob said:

10 ft.?😅 Not in my life time😅

Thanks for the vid. was an interesting watch.

 

I doubt that the AI will let you fly that close.  Fly formation with a human player.  It's a lot easier.

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SeaSerpent

Agreed, because only a human is smart enough to understand a never ending stream of slow down, speed up, don’t turn so tight, wtf are you doing, we need to go around again; how drunk are you?  You Moron!  What’s your heading? (In a turnfight).  Nah, I’m just kidding.  Feedback is good, and it’s what AI lacks.

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PhilthySpud

Helps immensely if the leader calls power and configuration changes. And as Thor said - trim!

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352ndOscar

Years of practice - with folks you know - and still it’s a tough thing to do.  The Leader is the key.  That person is responsible for getting the formation together, keeping it together, getting it to the target, and, getting it home - as safety as possible.  It’s not a parade!  It’s not an air show!  Practice, practice, practice.
 

 

 

 

B97E40A8-D7C0-4F50-AD0E-63A79681421A.jpeg

Edited by 352ndOscar
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S10JlAbraxis

 

Bottom line do not even try to fly formation with the AI.  It is a complete waste of time.  AI does not hold formation like real pilots. 

 

AI will pick a speed (usually way faster than a normal cruse speed) and then manically oscillate their throttles up and down in an attempt to keep that exact speed.  In real life none of them would make to their targets behaving like that since they would: 1) run out of fuel or 2) blow their engines. 

 

The AI needs a major update iregarding formation flying and is a mess right now.  What should happen is the leader should pick a normal cruse setting (MP and RPM) for the aircraft being flown and let the aircraft fly to the engine settings then adjust MP to come close to the mission speed and leave it alone. Then the wingmen adjust their settings to follow the lead.  Should all be very smooth and predictable

 

Also as mentioned above the aircraft fly too close.  Fine for the blue angles but stupid for real combat operations. 

 

Like I said don’t even try to fly with the AI; complete waste of time.   Also you will not learn real formation flying just twichy nonsense. 

 

In MP it can be done and can be learned.

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Knarley-Bob
On 9/1/2021 at 11:10 PM, SeaSerpent said:

Agreed, because only a human is smart enough to understand a never ending stream of slow down, speed up, don’t turn so tight, wtf are you doing, we need to go around again; how drunk are you?  You Moron!  What’s your heading? (In a turnfight).  Nah, I’m just kidding.  Feedback is good, and it’s what AI lacks.

Exactly what I'd be hearing. I just nestle back into tail end charlie's spot so I can keep an eye on them.

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On 9/1/2021 at 9:52 PM, PhilthySpud said:

Helps immensely if the leader calls power and configuration changes. And as Thor said - trim!

This.  When I flew with an online squad regularly, the flight leader would always call out this info. 

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Knarley-Bob

OK, tell me about trim....been meaning to ask about that too......

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PhilthySpud
On 9/9/2021 at 4:32 AM, Knarley-Bob said:

OK, tell me about trim....been meaning to ask about that too......

Trim and re-trim: form as a wingman means constant juggling of power and attitude. Keeping the aircraft in trim will help you hold station.

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On 9/8/2021 at 8:32 PM, Knarley-Bob said:

OK, tell me about trim....been meaning to ask about that too......

 

Trim for the speeds you intend to fly, i.e. power settings you intend to use. It will help to minimize stick input. This requires knowing the limits of the plane you wish to fly formation with/in.

 

Other top tips (as shown in the video):
- use ailerons and power only for correction

- rudder only in emergency

- keep wings level with the leader (not being level and using rudder = side ways skidding = more power needed)*

- keep the plane you're following in certain position inside the cockpit (as in between certain bars etc.)

 

Leader is, like others have said, key to good formation as he needs to:

- fly by using instruments

- announce power and course changes ahead of time for less experienced group (always helps)

- use gradual turns and maneuvers

- use less power than one would when flying alone in order to give the planes following a margin of error

- avoid sharp climbs and descents until group is skilled enough

 

 

* usually manifested by "dipping" in the wing closer to your leader, specially if the plane has dihedral wings

Edited by [DBS]TH0R
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Trooper117

I always remember when I started flying with the original IL2 being given a little nugget of information about close formation flying.

Look at the aircraft you are formating on... watch his actual prop and synchronise your props rotation to his. I found this surprisingly accurate.

 

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Knarley-Bob

My Dad told me about the prop syncro, didn't think that worked with the sim. (have looked for it but not seen that yet)

I thought that 'Trim' was with trimming elevators, and ailerons with the up down and yaw buttons, to the point the plane about flies it's self....

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12 minutes ago, Knarley-Bob said:

I thought that 'Trim' was with trimming elevators, and ailerons with the up down and yaw buttons, to the point the plane about flies it's self....

 

Thats the idea.  Different speeds require different amounts of trim but you don't have to be too exact.  It just makes life easier.

Good luck practising with the a.i.  All that good advice above about throttle control, a good leader, etc?  'Fraid the a.i. has none of that:(

 

How bad is your internet Bob?  IL2 BoS multiplayer does require a healthy connection,

If/when you think it's good enough, come and say hello;

 

 http://dangerdogz.com/forums/

 

We always have slots for knarley mid-westerners:biggrin:.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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My connection will not support one of those VR visors. I guess I have a 'Ping' that would rival Godzilla's foot print. Thank you indeed for the offer, would really  like to oblige. Maybe some day, been looking at those 'booster do-hickeys' not too sure if they'd work

KB

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