Ground loop problem with LaGG-3 ser.29

[tednturanski]

I've been practicing, but still having ground loops after landings the majority of time.  Landings seem to go ok until I start slowing down on the runway, and I have not yet figured out how to avoid them.  I've been real active with the rudder in an attempt to avoid a ground loop from starting up, but more often than not I end up with a spin after an otherwise good landing.  I don't know what I'm doing wrong, or neglecting to do right.  Any advice will be welcome!  I have a Microsoft Sidewinder Precision 2 Joystick which I use for control.  Here's where I practice:  Steam  ->   IL-2 Sturmovik:Battle of Stalingrad  ->    MISSIONS  ->   Take-off and landing, calm (LaGG-3 ser.29).  

Sincerely,  Ted Turanski, Lake City, Michigan, USA

[ilmavoimat]

Leave the throttle open far enough to keep rudder authority (try 20-25%) as you slow down and be very gentle with the differential braking as you slow to a walking pace.

Edited August 28, 2021 by ilmavoimat

[ShamrockOneFive]

IMHO I try and stay off the brakes as long as I can and let the drag from the grass/gravel/dirt runway slow me down as much as possible. Its a bit worse when you have concrete but you can adapt.

 

Instead what I try and do is get the aircraft to a three point landing or as near to it as I can then I keep the stick back and let the aircraft settle on the ground and I keep the stick back. Fancy rudder work but nothing on the brakes until the airspeed indicator is essentially not reading anything. Then I start with the brakes and combine them with the rudder.

 

That should do it.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Console yourself with the fact that this behavior is modeled wrong and has been since the game was launched.  Yes you can learn to keep the aircraft straight on the run out after touch down, but this behavior is far too exaggerated and is not reflective of the way real aircraft behave.

 

I will now don my fire retardant suit and await the vitriol of the 'harder is more real" brigade.  

[Dagwoodyt]

Been so long since I've tried the Lagg 3 I had to watch Requiem's tutorial before attempting the BoS mission you referenced. I tried the mission twice because I landed long on first attempt, stopping in the snow :-)

What I did on both flights was to use rudder trim before take off to counter expected prop torque. No need to retrim in flight if you're just doing go-rounds. I think that once you're comfortable you notice that there is a lot of time to make little trim adjustments during a landing approach. You can juggle elevator trim and flaps angle as needed to keep the runway threshhold in sight. I tried to keep to 200kph on final. Generally that means about 25% throttle at fine pitch. Engine sound is a good help so you that you can increase a bit if you hear the engine seem to fall off its power curve. In replay I touched down at ~160kph. I bounced several times but quickly got firmly onto up elevator. I throttle back to ~8% for the transition from touchdown to taxi, sometimes a bit more depending on runway conditions. Once the taxi is established I can let go of the stick, controlling direction with rudder pedals and dabs of brake lever. Brake control on an axis is the way to go if available. There surely are other ways to land the Lagg but I tried the mission you referenced and landed without a ground loop on both tries so it is definitely doable.

[oc2209]

I'm not sure if showing a landing is more instructive than explaining one, but since others have already explained it, I'll just show it:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Don't pay attention to my technique in general, because there is no logical technique. I just do it by feel.

 

There are two things you want to watch during the clip:

 

 

The lower-left circle is the brake gauge, and the middle circle is the slip indicator. Don't look at the X.

 

When watching my replay, listen for when the brakes squeak/hiss and for how long for a rough estimate of when you should start braking in your own landing run. Watch the slip indicator. When you feel the plane's stopped veering in one direction, immediately brake the opposite direction, briefly. Repeat the cycle as often as necessary until you've bled off enough ground speed that the looping danger has passed.

 

It's not pretty, but it works for me.

 

The Spitfire IX, for the record, is even more difficult to avoid looping. But one thing at a time.

[Denum]

No brakes for long as possible. 

 

Lift your flaps as soon as you touch down. Seems to help me. 

 

As mentioned. Something broken.

 

Try to land as slowly as possible also. I aim for 3 pointers.

 

Game has ridiculous rudder authority so I've found keeping a bit of throttle helps also. 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Denum

[Vig]

This is the most broken thing in the game.  

[Bremspropeller]

Why would people want to look at some instrument, when the whole world to watch is just right there, out of the window in front of them?

 

Just don't let the nose (well, the tail really) get away from you and fly her right to shutdown. There's nothing magical about it.

[Vig]

I have lots of experience driving on ice, and I understand the concept perfectly.  I can control my skids and they never get away from me in the real world.  But that's because I can actually feel the forces at work on the vehicle.  There is no such feedback available when landing in IL2 BOX.  As I've said before, this is an unnecessary irritant dating back to Rise of Flight.  No other team has ever come up with such a drastic ground-loop "simulation" and people with experience in the actual aircraft have said it is unrealistic.  But the ground loop is here, and torpedoes aren't.  I once read a discussion of simulation design that suggested that most of the effort should go into modeling the "fun stuff."    

[BlitzPig_EL]

One of the BlitzPigs was for many years a real aerobatics instructor, worked for the FAA on the airshow side of things, and has flown vast numbers of tail draggers, many of them racing planes and replicas thereof from the golden age of air racing. His personal training aircraft was a Stearman that was up engined to a 450hp Pratt & Whitney.  Needless to say he can speak from authoritative real world experience.  He says sim developers make things harder than they actually are, and it's because there is no "feel" for what the aircraft is doing when you are sitting at a desk behind a monitor "flying' with a plastic joystick.  In his opinion proper sim development has to compensate for this lack of feel to give realistic results for the sim flyer.

 

There is NOTHING realistic abut the whirling Dervish we have in this sim on landing.

[Lusekofte]

46 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

One of the BlitzPigs was for many years a real aerobatics instructor, worked for the FAA on the airshow side of things, and has flown vast numbers of tail draggers, many of them racing planes and replicas thereof from the golden age of air racing. His personal training aircraft was a Stearman that was up engined to a 450hp Pratt & Whitney.  Needless to say he can speak from authoritative real world experience.  He says sim developers make things harder than they actually are, and it's because there is no "feel" for what the aircraft is doing when you are sitting at a desk behind a monitor "flying' with a plastic joystick.  In his opinion proper sim development has to compensate for this lack of feel to give realistic results for the sim flyer.

 

There is NOTHING realistic abut the whirling Dervish we have in this sim on landing.

From what I read. Both from airshow pilots and ww2 pilots. Their concern taxi to or from airstrip was coolant and hot engines.

Still some radial powered planes like P 47 and Corsair was mentioned about final aoproach, take off and such things. 

Most others was mentioned as hard to see in front of planes. So I agree it is probably hard in sims.

 

 

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

One of the BlitzPigs was for many years a real aerobatics instructor, worked for the FAA on the airshow side of things, and has flown vast numbers of tail draggers, many of them racing planes and replicas thereof from the golden age of air racing. His personal training aircraft was a Stearman that was up engined to a 450hp Pratt & Whitney.  Needless to say he can speak from authoritative real world experience.  He says sim developers make things harder than they actually are, and it's because there is no "feel" for what the aircraft is doing when you are sitting at a desk behind a monitor "flying' with a plastic joystick.  In his opinion proper sim development has to compensate for this lack of feel to give realistic results for the sim flyer.

 

There is NOTHING realistic abut the whirling Dervish we have in this sim on landing.

 

No offense intended, but many of the developers of the title here are also highly experienced pilots - including Petrovich, of whom we have seen many videos of his flying here. It's not like it's just a bunch of random yahoos that have been developing this title for all these years. @Bremspropelleris right in this regard, and he's not the first person here to give that sort of advice. 

[Bremspropeller]

17 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

No offense intended, but many of the developers of the title here are also highly experienced pilots - including Petrovich, of whom we have seen many videos of his flying here. It's not like it's just a bunch of random yahoos that have been developing this title for all these years. @Bremspropelleris right in this regard, and he's not the first person here to give that sort of advice. 

 

I'll have to back up El, though. My experience is only based on 65hp and 90hp vintage taildraggers, but you'll have to be quite numb to let those aircraft get away from you. That doesn't mean that you can spend your time in there half-asleep, but it certainly is a good deal easier than in game. Probably because your bum is strapped to the crate, which helps picking up yaw, even while not looking over the nose.

Then again, my rear end was trained flying gliders from age 14...

 

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Bremspropeller

[LukeFF]

3 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Probably because your bum is strapped to the crate, which helps picking up yaw, even while not looking over the nose.

 

Yes, it's for much the same reason why people spin out and crash while playing highly realistic racing games - lack of feedback telling you "hey, this is a bad idea, you might want to correct your steering before you become one with that tire barricade up on your right." It's not because things are broken and developers want to make things harder just because they can.

[BlitzPig_EL]

The "seat of the pants" thing is what it's all about.  I have some experience on real race tracks, hence I find even the best racing sim to be wanting, if fun.  If a modern HOTAS was available with a force feedback component as good as that in modern racing sims, it would certainly be helpful.

 

Luke, I'm not saying that the developers are intentionally making the sim harder "just because".  But in the end the outcome is the same.  Something in the sim isn't quite right.  I don't know if it's the poor rudder authority at low speeds, the tire/ground interaction, or the "mass" issue that has plagued the sim since day one, or some combination of them.  But the result is, aircraft that weigh two and a half to 7+ tons behaving like a Styrofoam RC model in a wind storm on landing. 

 

I still love the sim, I still play it, I still respect the devs and all they get done with the sparse resources they have to work with.

 

 

[Dagwoodyt]

You can land tail draggers in this sim without ground looping if you accept doing it the way it wants to be done.

[Vig]

It is the developers *job* to provide feedback for the missing physical sensation if they want to model something that requires it.  Red arrow indicating the force vector and strength by direction, width and length, for example.  Or if that would be ugly and too much trouble, maybe the thing they are trying to model accurately should be made less accurate to compensate for the lack of feedback, such that only a gross error would cause the adverse result.  Those are the choices, unless this is supposed to be a wind-tunnel sim.  

I love the White Knighting ridicule by the testers in this forum, by the way.  So absolutely dependable.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I just tried it and it's fine without any trickery involved. Did 20 Touch&Goes (with a Full Stop each time) and didn't Loop once.

 

Approach at 175km/h, Trim Full Tailheavy, Full Flaps, Nose on the Horizon, Quick and Decisive Flare, Touchdown at 140km/h Stick to the Belly, keep it there and she tracks straight and true.

 

Brakes and no Brakes works just fine, I find with Brakes even easier.

Grass and Asphalt work well.

 

What are you Guys doing?

 

Fly a steep and stable Approach (these are Fighters, not Airliners) and do it as you would in any Bushplane to keep the Landing Short and Stable.

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

The other viable solution is to use the mouse controller.

 

Guranteed 100% less groundloops on landing.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

i'm just getting Speeds down to 120 on Touchdown and that appears to be the Sweetspot.

[Dakpilot]

How easy do people want things? 

 

Should a rock ape with zero aeronautical knowledge be able to land a 2000 HP warbird first try with zero investment or practice? Easier isn't always realistic either. ?

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Just now, Dakpilot said:

sniü

If you just apply the most basic skills of Airmanship in Taildraggers on the LaGG-3 and La-5 it is as simple as any other Plane.

It was also toned down to the Point that taxiing the LaGG is a real Chore now as the Tailwheel has such a powerful spring in it now.

 

I guess many People get scared when they can't see the Runway and fly waaaay too fast and steep and then push it onto 2 Wheels and just hope they get it stopped in time. And that don't work in Russian Planes.

3 Pointers all day, every day.

[oc2209]

10 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

Just don't let the nose (well, the tail really) get away from you and fly her right to shutdown. There's nothing magical about it.

 

Obviously nothing is as simple and easy to a novice, which I assume the OP is.

 

Also, the Spit IX does have a nearly magical inclination to loop even when under 30 MPH:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Luckily the Spit IX is the only bad looper in the Spit family; and any 109 with an unlocked tail wheel is even worse than the IX. Barring those two, nothing else is in serious danger of looping (to experienced flyers, anyway).

[Hoss]

16 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

Been so long since I've tried the Lagg 3 I had to watch Requiem's tutorial before attempting the BoS mission you referenced. I tried the mission twice because I landed long on first attempt, stopping in the snow ?

What I did on both flights was to use rudder trim before take off to counter expected prop torque. No need to retrim in flight if you're just doing go-rounds. I think that once you're comfortable you notice that there is a lot of time to make little trim adjustments during a landing approach. You can juggle elevator trim and flaps angle as needed to keep the runway threshhold in sight. I tried to keep to 200kph on final. Generally that means about 25% throttle at fine pitch. Engine sound is a good help so you that you can increase a bit if you hear the engine seem to fall off its power curve. In replay I touched down at ~160kph. I bounced several times but quickly got firmly onto up elevator. I throttle back to ~8% for the transition from touchdown to taxi, sometimes a bit more depending on runway conditions. Once the taxi is established I can let go of the stick, controlling direction with rudder pedals and dabs of brake lever. Brake control on an axis is the way to go if available. There surely are other ways to land the Lagg but I tried the mission you referenced and landed without a ground loop on both tries so it is definitely doable.

 

Watch the slip indicator if the Lagg has one, which I think it does, when you throttle down that ball is going to be to one side or the other, trim it back to the middle and watch it as you come in to land.  Its something I watch on all planes.  I have not flown a Russian plane since BoBP came out, or a German one either...

[Dragon1-1]

15 hours ago, Vig said:

It is the developers *job* to provide feedback for the missing physical sensation if they want to model something that requires it.

If they really wanted to do it right, they'd provide IL-2 owners a discount on a decent motion platform.  

 

Jokes aside, I'm going to build myself one of those someday.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

There is so much bad Information in this Thread.

 

Stop fumbling around with Rudder Trim, don't even look at the Slip Indicator, it won't help and just confuse you.

 

Zoom out, 105° works well for Widescreen (Backspace Button shows FPS and FOV in the upper right Corner) and move your head back in the Cockpit as in the Picture.

That way you get a feeling for the Movement of your Plane.

All of that "Butt Feel" is Bulls**t. Plenty of Pilots die because they think their Butt knows up from down, but you don't. Clouds are disorienting IRL just as ingame.

 

Fly a Slow Approach, Nose on the Horizon, Fix your Eyes on a Point and use your Peripheral Vision to notice any deviations. On the End of the Approach do a short and decisive Flare, like, proper, flare it all the Way into the 3 Point Attitude until she settles on her own.

Keep the Stick pulled back to create Drag with your Tailwheel to stabilize the Plane, step on the Brakes and use your Peripheral Vision to correct deviations from the desired Course. If the Plane starts leaning left, you steer left, if it leans right you steer right.

And stay on the Brakes.

 

[KoN_]

On 8/29/2021 at 4:01 AM, BlitzPig_EL said:

Console yourself with the fact that this behavior is modeled wrong and has been since the game was launched.  Yes you can learn to keep the aircraft straight on the run out after touch down, but this behavior is far too exaggerated and is not reflective of the way real aircraft behave.

 

I will now don my fire retardant suit and await the vitriol of the 'harder is more real" brigade.  

Totally agree .

Ground loops on taxi and landing .

Seen so many spitfires looping in circles just on a simple taxi . 

[Dagwoodyt]

In the final analysis what matters is that there is indeed a decipherable logic to landing the plane succesfully in BoX. For the task at issue agreement on how well the landing process is modeled is irrelevant to the desired outcome.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S! 

 

The Lagg-3 had a spring assisted selfcentering mechanism in the tail wheel assembly. To overcome it you had to apply differential braking. Posted about it in the Historical data section, flight trials of Lagg-3 series 35 by Finnish Air Force. Essentially the same as series 29 with minor counterweights differences etc in the tail assembly. 

 

No comments on any modelling in the game, could not care less anymore ?

Edited August 30, 2021 by LLv34_Flanker

[oc2209]

11 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

There is so much bad Information in this Thread.

 

 

I'm not criticizing your advice, but watching the slip indicator can work. I'm not saying it's the best method, but it's fine. Adequate. The problem is when you have planes that loop as severely as the Spit IX does, requiring every input of yours to be nearly perfectly timed.

 

The Spit V isn't nearly as hard to keep straight. You can afford to be a total slob with the landing, as I've demonstrated below, and it won't punish you:

 

Spoiler

 

 

The Spit XIV is more difficult than the V, but still simpler to handle than the IX. I still contend that the IX on concrete is a loop-monster without equal (again, barring an unlocked 109).

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

@oc2209Yes, the Spit catches me out sometimes as well. It and the Hs.129 are possibly the worst offenders. The LaGG is docile in comparison.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

15 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

@oc2209Yes, the Spit catches me out sometimes as well. It and the Hs.129 are possibly the worst offenders. The LaGG is docile in comparison.

Than again the Spitfire with it's narrow undercarriage is notorious for that. This is a good example of it as it is wihtout engine assisted airflow.

 

Notice how laborious it is for the pilot to keep it from groundlooping (rapid full rudder deflections, constant pulling, braking).

Edited August 31, 2021 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[AEthelraedUnraed]

2 hours ago, 6./ZG26_5tuka said:

Than again the Spitfire with it's narrow undercarriage is notorious for that. This is a good example of it as it is wihtout engine assisted airflow.

 

Notice how laborious it is for the pilot to keep it from groundlooping (rapid full rudder deflections, constant pulling, braking).

Wow, there's a couple of times that Spit looks really close to ground looping indeed! Nice video!

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

I dont think it was mentionned in this topic yet but sometimes even the AI will start making donuts. I have seen it happen again yesterday. Flying Dora in BoBP. I myself struggled to take her off, the pull to the left was so strong, even with the tail wheel locked I needed to apply full rudder to the right and right brake to keep her on the runway during takeoff.

 

#2, #3 and #4 from my flight managed to take off (barely). #5 and #6 crashed in the trees left of the airfield, #7 and #8 were making donuts. 

 

There were pretty strong winds so I assume it was the cause of all this but man, that wasnt a good look.

[DD_Arthur]

3 hours ago, 6./ZG26_5tuka said:

Than again the Spitfire with it's narrow undercarriage is notorious for that. This is a good example of it as it is wihtout engine assisted airflow.

 

Notice how laborious it is for the pilot to keep it from groundlooping (rapid full rudder deflections, constant pulling, braking).

 

Eh? That’s a terrible example.

Thats an emergency landing as he’s obviously having an engine failure.

 

 

[Dagwoodyt]

A few days after I started following this thread I ran a QMB 8v8 flying the Spitfire Vb. Upon taking engine damage from a Bf 110 I opted to land expeditiously. All seemed in order for the moment so I set full or near full tail heavy elevator and full right rudder trim, engine to full "fine" pitch. I landed uneventfully, no ground loop. As I attempted to head toward the hangars I noted difficulty in turning the aircraft nose to the intended direction. Upon checking my rear view mirror I noted rudder offset to the right and no response to rudder pedals. Checking outside view of course revealed multiple holes through the tailplane. I guess then that some control inputs are more critical than others  ?

Edited August 31, 2021 by Dagwoodyt

[JimTM]

3 hours ago, 6./ZG26_5tuka said:

Than again the Spitfire with it's narrow undercarriage is notorious for that. This is a good example of it as it is wihtout engine assisted airflow.

...

Notice how laborious it is for the pilot to keep it from groundlooping (rapid full rudder deflections, constant pulling, braking).

 

Laborious indeed, but the same techniques work quite well in IL-2 as long as you:

• Apply quick rudder/brake inputs at the first sign that the aircraft is wandering off track (watch for any change in the landscape features out of the front left and right of your canopy). It's a bit like dancing on the rudder pedals.
  Use rudder for the first part of the landing, when it is still effective.
  Use brake for the later part of the landing.
  These techniques work fine with the engine at idle.
• Remove any inputs you apply at the first sign that the aircraft stops wandering off track and apply the opposite input if necessary.
  In the video, I think he has to apply right or left braking for a longer period but it seems that he gets off the brakes right away once the aircraft straightens out. This technique has worked fine for me on many occasions, but sometimes it is not enough and I do a loop (mostly when I don't pay enough attention to the ground track).
• Keep applying the inputs above until you are stopped.
  Remember the old adage, "keep flying the plane until it's in the hanger".

Edited August 31, 2021 by JimTM

[tednturanski]

I would like to thank everyone who has commented on this thread.  I have looked and re-looked at every response - written, video, and picture. It's comforting to me to learn that there is a issue with the sim in connection with the rudder control, and I will do my best to learn how to work with that.  I love the sim and its planes.  I am practicing repeated landings taking into consideration all of your suggestions.  At the moment I am at 60% loop free landings.  Keeping my eye also on the turn indicator.  Some have mentioned braking, and I use the brakes.  However I cannot get individual left and right brakes to function, - just the slash works for both brakes together.  In the key bindings there is a listing for left and right brake, I think it was comma and period, but there is no function when in the plane.  I also tried to assign left and right brakes to my joystick buttons, but that didn't work either.  But even without separate brakes I seem to be making progress thanks to your suggestions.  I will report on my progress after a few more days of practice.  Thanks again to you all.  See you later!

        Ted Turanski,  Lake City,  Michigan,   USA

[JimTM]

17 minutes ago, tednturanski said:

...

Some have mentioned braking, and I use the brakes.  However I cannot get individual left and right brakes to function, - just the slash works for both brakes together.  In the key bindings there is a listing for left and right brake, I think it was comma and period, but there is no function when in the plane.  I also tried to assign left and right brakes to my joystick buttons, but that didn't work either.  But even without separate brakes I seem to be making progress thanks to your suggestions. 

...

 

Most Russian planes (and all British planes) use a single brake lever on the stick (the keybind is "Wheel brakes"). The rudder position determines how much braking action goes to each brake. So, no rudder = both brakes, rudder full left = all left brake, rudder 1/2 left = mostly left brake. There is a guage in the Lagg and the Spits on the lower left of the panel that shows the left and right brake pressure when you pull the brake lever and press left/right rudder.

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by JimTM