Pre-D-Day planes, yes or not?

[DN308]

I would like to see a nice surprise from the devs. In particular, it would be really good to have some planes from 1941 to 1944.

it could be made in order to allow the pre-invasion tactical air campaign in Europe lead by light and medium bombers on the BoBP and future BoN maps. 
Devs could offer us collector planes apart of the others contained in the BoN list.

Flyable would be a huge Plus of course.

[Gambit21]

Well to be fair the fighter bombers that we already have/are getting did a lot of that pre-invasion work. So if I was still interested in flying non-PTO WWII (which I’m not) I have plenty to work with already.

 

That said - Blenheim.

 

[DN308]

Blenheim did a lot both in France and Low Countries, if not in Germany

Have a look at the book « Voices in the flight: daylight bombings 1941-1942 »

[sevenless]

Clearly Blenheim for me. But don´t miss the Wimpy. It was a pretty abundant piece up until 1945. Production ended 10/1945 after 11.000 pieces.

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by sevenless

[HBPencil]

Blenheim MkIV for me, it was the most ubiquitous of those four by a mile and could be a shoe-in on many potential future expansions, so would give us and the devs the most bang for our buck.

[Pict]

 

All the options you offer are RAF (allied) types, so zero balance there and balance is pretty much a pre-requisite as far as getting new planes off the ground, so to speak

 

A pre-D-Day plane set to my mind conjours up a Dieppe add-on. A Blenheim IV would be a part of that line up as would a Mustang I, but so would a Do-217 and early mark Fw-190A's & Bf-109G's, plus it would dovetail into the Normandy map & a fair few of the aircraft types we already have.

 

===================

 

So if you are just looking at a single "collector" plane the idea of a Hudson would appeal to me and as there's still one flying out of Temora NSW Australia there is plenty of data still around on the type. But I'd be surprised if there was enough interest in it to warrant a collector bird.

 

Looking at your line up Coastal Command springs to mind...lots of scope there and one that hasn't been mentioned is the Handley Page Hampden (flying suitcase), which also saw action in Russia when 455 Sqn RAAF flew from Scotland to Russia in 1942, a journey that was theoretically beyond their range, and arrived with empty tanks.

 

=================

 

So one vote for a Hudson as I'd prefer to see a Blenheim as a part of a Dieppe line up  

Edited August 3, 2021 by Pict

[DN308]

Good show @Pict

[Jade_Monkey]

Blenheim.

 

However, if they have the capacity for that, why not just do the B25 first?

[BMA_FlyingShark]

Blenheim for me.

 

Have a nice day.

 

[DN308]

8 hours ago, Jade_Monkey said:

Blenheim.

 

However, if they have the capacity for that, why not just do the B25 first?

Sure. What I have some difficulties to understand is that CoD team Fusion has a lot (sufficient) datas to build some planes and this work don’t serves the BoX team… Can’t imagine the teams work infaisable 

[BMA_FlyingShark]

8 hours ago, Jade_Monkey said:

Blenheim.

 

However, if they have the capacity for that, why not just do the B25 first?

Good idea, seconded.

 

Have a nice day.

 

7 minutes ago, DN308 said:

Sure. What I have some difficulties to understand is that CoD team Fusion has a lot (sufficient) datas to build some planes and this work don’t serves the BoX team… Can’t imagine the teams work infaisable 

2 Different teams, I understand what you mean but it's just not the way it works in companies.

Both teams are made of people who would like to keep their job.

 

Have a nice day.

 

[DN308]

Makes sense for sure.

[Gambit21]

On 8/3/2021 at 2:56 AM, Pict said:

 

 zero balance there

 

By cracky you're right, the Zero is Pre D-Day aircraft.

Good call!

 

 

 

 

[Avimimus]

I'd go for a 1942 Channel line-up / Operational Jubilee / Drawing the Luftwaffe out over Dieppe:

Do-217E4

Boston III (British A-20 variant)

Mustang Mk.1

Fw-190A4

Typhoon (early)

Spit IXc

 

As for earlier aircraft - An AI Beaufighter or AI Wellington would make good targets for the Ju-88C6!

Edited August 5, 2021 by Avimimus

[Pict]

9 hours ago, Avimimus said:

Fw-190A4

Typhoon (early)

Spit IXc

 

I think...

 

The Anton's at Dieppe were earlier models, A2's, and there were also early Bf-109G's, ie., the G1 that were present

The Typhoon was the 1b, with the car door canopy

The Spit IX was it's first time out in anger and was possibly earlier than the IXC, probably the IXB

 

Anyhow Operation Jubilee would be a logical place to base a post BoB / pre D-Day add-on, not just as being in 1942 it was bang in the middle, nor that it was the most significant air battle in the ETO within that time-frame, comparable to the Kuban air battles in the East and yet unlike D-Day, Dieppe was balanced enough for both side to claim victory.

 

Apart from all that, it was the first major air action of the USA in the ETO, where the USAAC had several Spitfire VB squadrons and attacked Abbville aerodrome with B-17's, E's I think, in an effort to suppress the Luftwaffe's response to the raid.

 

So heaps of potential for one decent add-on and lots of scope for collector planes. The map is another story as while the map for D-Day would cover Dieppe and most of the other side, it wouldn't go far enough north to cover places like Amiens that was included in the Battle...plenty of scope for research there too.

 

==========================

 

Outside of Operation Jubilee, but still on the channel front pre-D-Day, one aircraft worthy of a mention would be the Westland Whirlwind and is even worth a quote from it's wiki page;

 

Quote

The aircraft was summed up by Francis Mason as follows:

Bearing in mind the relatively small number of Whirlwinds that reached the RAF, the type remained in combat service, virtually unmodified, for a remarkably long time…The Whirlwind, once mastered, certainly shouldered extensive responsibilities and the two squadrons were called upon to attack enemy targets from one end of the Channel to the other, by day and night, moving from airfield to airfield within southern England.

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Pict

[Avimimus]

9 hours ago, Pict said:

 

I think...

 

The Anton's at Dieppe were earlier models, A2's, and there were also early Bf-109G's, ie., the G1 that were present

 

I think you are a bit off on this one. Fw-190A4/U18 (i.e. The progenitor of the Fw-190G line) were active, particularly attacking ships during the retreat.

 

It also seems that the fighters station in the area were late Fw-190A2 or A3, with very few Bf-109 seeing combat. I'd gathered that a handful of Bf-109F4 were present, but I hadn't heard of any Bf-109G. I also suspect that I did see Spit IXc listed in the articles I examined (but I can check).

 

I'd be quite curious as to the exact Mustang Mk.1 variants used.

 

Regarding less important, but still somewhat exotic types: Teams of Walrus flying boats and Defiant spotters were operated as air-sea rescue during the battle, and Blenheim's were still in use - albeit only to lay smoke.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Avimimus

[sevenless]

12 hours ago, Pict said:

 

I think...

 

The Anton's at Dieppe were earlier models, A2's, and there were also early Bf-109G's, ie., the G1 that were present

 

You can easily find out which planes were present back then 8/42 by looking them up here for JG2 and JG26. Look for Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen

 

The Luftwaffe, 1933-45 (ww2.dk)

[Pict]

12 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

You can easily find out which planes were present back then 8/42 by looking them up here for JG2 and JG26. Look for Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen

 

The Luftwaffe, 1933-45 (ww2.dk)

 

While that's an interesting resource, it's fairly general from what I can see and covers what the units had on hand for a give time, which is good info, but doesn't specifically relate to whether or not these aircraft or units were deployed at Dieppe. Unless I have missed something which is highly likely  

 

It does show that even the Bf-109E-7 was on strength in August 1942 on the channel front with either Jg2 or Jg26, which in itself in interesting, but I've yet to see any info stating that there were Bf-109E's involved in Dieppe.

 

It also shows that the Bf-109G1 was with these squadrons and I do have other data that not only puts them in the Dieppe air battle but gives detail of their werknummer and loss in combat during the day. So you link goes towards corroborating the Bf-109G1's appearance which is useful.

 

16 hours ago, Avimimus said:

I think you are a bit off on this one. Fw-190A4/U18 (i.e. The progenitor of the Fw-190G line) were active, particularly attacking ships during the retreat.

 

Having had a bit of a dig into it again I think we are actually both right

 

A table outlining the Luftwaffe fighter losses during the Dieppe operation was where I'd read about the Bf-109G1 & Fw190A2 and I saw it on this website http://www.luftwaffe.cz/dieppe.html

 

Here it is for easy reference.

 

 

Another good read available on the web about Dieppe is here http://samilitaryhistory.org/vol015ms.html and reminds me that the Bristol Beufighter, so far unmentioned was also involved in the operation.

 

===================

 

I think a useful exercise would be to start a thread dedicated to researching exactly which aircraft types were involved what units and their bases for the scope of the map area to get a fuller overall picture of what was involved. I might do that later today or over the weekend if I get some time.

[sevenless]

10 minutes ago, Pict said:

 

 but doesn't specifically relate to whether or not these aircraft or units were deployed at Dieppe. Unless I have missed something which is highly likely  

 

 

No of course it isn´t specifically about Dieppe. But Dieppe is pretty easy in so far as the two Jagdgeschwader were the only german units in the west at 08/42.

 

[Diggun]

My wallet is ready and waiting for the opportunity to pay for an early IXb/c & and Early Typhoon....

[BMA_FlyingShark]

2 hours ago, Diggun said:

My wallet is ready and waiting for the opportunity to pay for an early IXb/c & and Early Typhoon....

You may add an early P40 for me (I don't care if it doesn't fit the theater, mission makers will surely make some interesting things placing it against E7's and F2's.

 

Have a nice day.

 

[Pict]

6 hours ago, sevenless said:

Dieppe is pretty easy in so far as the two Jagdgeschwader were the only german units in the west at 08/42.

 

That would be fine if you were just looking for info on fighter units, and general info at that. But I'm looking a fair bit wider & deeper and Dieppe raid specific and I'm not just looking at fighters, as the Luftwaffe did have bomber units in the West at that time too and they did take part in Dieppe.

 

I ran across this website that I find pretty interesting for the amount of detail it puts up and the fact that it's a searchable database. It's not just Luftwaffe either and well worth a look from the homepage or the databases page;

 

http://aircrewremembered.com/databasesmaster.html

 

I did a simple search on the The Kracker Luftwaffe Archive: Axis Powers Pilots and Crew page for the date of the Dieppe raid. It threw up 44 results and I find them pretty interesting;

 

http://www.aircrewremembered.com/KrackerDatabase/?q=8%2F19%2F42&qand=&exc1=&exc2=&search_only=&search_type=exact

Edited August 6, 2021 by Pict

[sevenless]

1 hour ago, Pict said:

 

That would be fine if you were just looking for info on fighter units, and general info at that. But I'm looking a fair bit wider & deeper all Dieppe-centric and I'm not just looking at fighters, as the Luftwaffe did have bomber units in the West at that time too and they did take part in Dieppe.

 

 

I might be able to help you out a bit with bombers. I have this quote here:

 

 

The complete article about Dieppe from the german perspective is 2 pages. Send me a pm and I see how I can get it to you.

 

KG 2 and KG 40 details are also on Michael Holms site:

 

Kampfgeschwader 2 (ww2.dk)

 

And for the allied side we have Trafford Leigh-Mallory here:

 

Air Operations at Dieppe: An After-Action Report (wlu.ca)

Edited August 6, 2021 by sevenless

[twilson37]

Would love to see the Blenheim but for me it would be the Lysander because of the uniqueness of the mission. Trying to navigate at night to find a field in what must look like the thousands of other fields you are flying over to try to land with only lanterns marking the runway, then turning around and taking off again, all the while dodging Flak and night fighters.

[DN308]

Blenheim stays the most versatile plane for both BoBP and BoN maps.

It should be considered seriously by the devs as a must have

[Mtnbiker1998]

I'd rather see an Allison engined Mustang, Great potential for a Collector plane if you model all the different variants. XP-51 with 4x .50s and 4x .30s, P-51 with 2x .50s 4x .30s, Mustang 1a with  4x 20mm cannons, P-51A with 4 .50s and of course the A-36 with 6x .50s, dive brakes and wing bomb racks.

 

Plenty of use for both RAF and USAAF for Pre-D-Day and a future Mediterranean theater, While being far more versatile than a Spitfire or dedicated bomber. 

[Gambit21]

On 11/2/2021 at 8:57 AM, DN308 said:

Blenheim stays the most versatile plane for both BoBP and BoN maps.

It should be considered seriously by the devs as a must have

 

A-20G my friend...A-20G.

Not that I think that's in danger of happening mind you.

 

[DN308]

A-20G is on top of my list too (but in third place after Flyable B-25)

[BMA_FlyingShark]

3 minutes ago, DN308 said:

A-20G is on top of my list too (but in third place after Flyable B-25)

Same here and the B-26 is at second place for me.

 

Have a nice day.

 

[Mtnbiker1998]

17 hours ago, DN308 said:

A-20G is on top of my list too (but in third place after Flyable B-25)

I'm holding out for an A-20G as part of a potential Late Eastern Front DLC. Only real reason I'd be into it is for Lend Lease stuff.

 

Maybe a KingCobra too if we're lucky...

[CUJO_1970]

Pre - D Day most needed aircraft are early P-38F/G/H and early P-47 C and D.

 

It's currently not possible to have any 1942-43 scenario with American fighters in the sim.

[Mtnbiker1998]

58 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

Pre - D Day most needed aircraft are early P-38F/G/H and early P-47 C and D.

 

It's currently not possible to have any 1942-43 scenario with American fighters in the sim.

I'm super in favor of an earlier P-38. As much as I love the P-47 though, in game it gets the short end of the stick so its not gonna be my first choice for IL-2 expansions.