Medal Allocation

[Noisemaker]

I'd like to see the medal allocation in SP both clarified and improved upon.

I flew one of my Stalingrad careers for a few flights today, and on one mission, in all honesty a milk run, I downed a single enemy fighter (my 35th).  For that I received the Hero of the Soviet Union medal (my 2nd).  A couple of missions later however, against overwhelming odds (4-1), and after being wounded and critically damaged in the first head on pass with the enemy by a lucky shot, I still managed with great effort, even when I should have immediately RTB, to bring the bombers home safely and bagged 3 kills in the process (I was lucky, so lucky...).  For that I got the wound stripe...

I'd love someday to see the medals being rewarded for actual valour, as opposed to an arbitrary kill number or missions flown.

My humble 1c (x2).

 

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, Noisemaker said:

I'd love someday to see the medals being rewarded for actual valour, as opposed to an arbitrary kill number or missions flown.

 

They are, but it all depends on what awards you already have and the nation for which you are flying. For the USSR, they had both official fixed lists of requirements for awards and more latitude to award medals based on single-mission valor. For instance, early in the war against Germany, the government came out with a whole bunch of requirements, which are discussed at length here: https://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/433-награды/

 

In the game, the Hero of the Soviet Union title is given both for reaching a certain number of kills (both air and ground) and for having a particularly good sortie. However, I've also thrown in a curveball in the parameters file where another award can be given instead of the HSU in cases where you had a really good mission. This is to reflect the reality where many pilots thought they deserved one medal but instead were given another.

 

German awards were very much based on a rigid, numbers-based system, both in the West and the East. This is going to be refined a bit, hopefully in the next public release (namely where bombers will count for double the points of a fighter on the Western Front, in all circumstances).

 

Some American awards are based on valor, while others are based on defined numbers, again reflecting the reality of the air forces fighting in Western Europe in 1944-45.

 

British awards are a mix: they can be awarded based on single-mission valor, accumulated kill totals (both air and ground), or for completing a tour of duty (which was based on flight hours). There is also the DSO, which can be earned either for single-mission valor by any of the officer ranks or for unit commanders who have completed a large number of missions. These requirements as well are planned to be refined in the next update. For instance, the DFC and DFM will now be awarded based on (1) total air victories, (2) total ground targets destroyed (buildings, bridges, guns, tanks, trucks, railcars, locomotives), (3) ships sunk, (4) flight hours completed, or (5) a particularly good air-to-air mission.

Edited July 27, 2021 by LukeFF

[Noisemaker]

How does the game define or determine valour?

[LukeFF]

16 hours ago, Noisemaker said:

How does the game define or determine valour?

 

There's a number of ways, including the following:

• Planes shot down in a single mission (of all types)
• Bombers shot down in a single mission
• Transports shot down in a single mission
• Ships sunk in a single mission (which can be divided further into different classes of ships sunk during a mission - small ships, transport ships, destroyers, and submarines)
• Ground targets destroyed in a single mission (of all types)
• Buildings destroyed in a single mission (including bridges)
• Tanks destroyed in a single mission
• Being wounded during a single mission (which then can be combined with any of the above parameters)

Edited July 29, 2021 by LukeFF

[PatrickAWlson]

This is a limitation of the game.  The game does not represent climbing out on the wing without a parachute to put out an engine fire.  That is the sort of thing that got people a VC or MoH. 

 

I do something that was never written down but I believe did exist: while there were no rules around the highest western allied awards being awarded for sustained performance, IMHO sustained performance made it more likely for your commander to find a reason.  Thus, shooting down 3 planes early in your career will not get you a VC.  Shooting down 3 planes after you have already scored 40 will.  Not a perfect representation by any means, but it's what we have (until the developers model wing walking with a fire extinguisher).

[LukeFF]

11 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

I do something that was never written down but I believe did exist: while there were no rules around the highest western allied awards being awarded for sustained performance, IMHO sustained performance made it more likely for your commander to find a reason.  Thus, shooting down 3 planes early in your career will not get you a VC.  Shooting down 3 planes after you have already scored 40 will.

 

What I would like to see is a way for the game to award some of these higher-grade medals (e.g., the Distinguished Service Cross and Medal of Honor) for a very high victory total over a short period of time. I've read through a lot of the USAAF award citations for such medals, and it wasn't uncommon for a pilot to be awarded something like a DSC for shooting down a large number of planes over, say, a 30-day period.

[Reggie_Mental]

My grandad was responsible for destroying 32 Luftwaffe aircraft, but he never got any medals.?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(He was the worst mechanic the Luftwaffe ever had...?)

[Cleo9]

Re : the DSO, it was relatively easy to receive  it before v. 4.602. I remember getting it with 2 bars during a Spit9 career. But I am presently flying both a Spit14 and a Typhoon career and I just can't get that award. So far my Spit14 pilot has flown 64 missions, shot down 54 E/A and also destroyed 46 ground targets. I received the DFC with two bars, the Air Cross and the DFM with one bar, plus multiple "mentioned in dispatches" certifications, but no DSO. None of the AI pilot in my squadron managed to get it during combat operations, but some reinforcements already had it the day they integrated the outfit despite modest achievements. Same observations for my Typhoon career. Is it still possible to get that awards (I assume that the answer is : yes) and if so, what does it take ? @LukeFF : You mention that it can be awarded for single mission valor or for mission commanders who have flown a certain number of missions. I am never the commander in my careers, so what kind of exploit does it take ? I have shot down 3 E/A during a single mission on 2 or 3 occasions. In my book, this should do the trick and it certainly did before 4.602. I'm just curious as to what has changed in the equation determining how you get the DSO...

Edited September 25, 2021 by Cleo9

[LukeFF]

43 minutes ago, Cleo9 said:

You mention that it can be awarded for single mission valor or for mission commanders who have flown a certain number of missions. I am never the commander in my careers, so what kind of exploit does it take ? I have shot down 3 E/A during a single mission on 2 or 3 occasions. In my book, this should do the trick and it certainly did before 4.602. I'm just curious as to what has changed in the equation determining how you get the DSO...

 

Yes, the requirements for the DSO have become more strict, to be more in line with real-world achievements. The current requirements are:

• Be an officer and...
• Either shoot down a combination of at least 4 fighters and bombers in a single mission, or...
• Be in command of your squadron and have completed at least 300 missions

The DSO, in reality, was a relatively rare award during the war. Overall, it was awarded once to 4880 individuals, 947 times as a second award, 59 times as a third award, and 8 times as a fourth award. I've not yet seen any numbers about how many of those DSOs went to the RAF.

Edited September 25, 2021 by LukeFF

[Cleo9]

5 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

Yes, the requirements for the DSO have become more strict, to be more in line with real-world achievements. The current requirements are:

• Be an officer and...
• Either shoot down a combination of at least 4 fighters and bombers in a single mission, or...
• Be in command of your squadron and have completed at least 300 missions

The DSO, in reality, was a relatively rare award during the war. Overall, it was awarded once to 4880 individuals, 947 times as a second award, 59 times as a third award, and 8 times as a fourth award. I've not yet seen any numbers about how many of those DSOs went to the RAF.

Thank you for your quick answer and the very specific details. I knew about the number of DSOs awarded and I was effectively surprised to see how easy it was to get that award in earlier versions of the game. I assume that getting the VC must be even more of a challenge !

[LukeFF]

5 minutes ago, Cleo9 said:

Thank you for your quick answer and the very specific details. I knew about the number of DSOs awarded and I was effectively surprised to see how easy it was to get that award in earlier versions of the game. I assume that getting the VC must be even more of a challenge !

 

No problem! And yes, earning the VC is quite the challenge. 

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

On 7/27/2021 at 11:01 PM, LukeFF said:

For instance, the DFC and DFM will now be awarded based on (1) total air victories, (2) total ground targets destroyed (buildings, bridges, guns, tanks, trucks, railcars, locomotives), (3) ships sunk, (4) flight hours completed, or (5) a particularly good air-to-air mission.

Is there a sort of sum product going on where if you get nearly enough air kills and nearly enough ground kills and nearly enough ships and nearly enough hours it'll give the medal to you anyway for all-around achievement?

 

Additional question, when we're thinking about actions above and beyond the call of duty that the game can't really model, do kills gained with the front guns of a bomber count for more against your medal total than with a fighter? I'm thinking particularly of Adrian Warburton, I don't think he got his VC specifically for becoming the world's only Maryland ace, but I suspect it helped his case along considerably. The A-20 is actually an impressive heavy fighter and it'd be neat to allow a bit of recognition for virtual pilots who decide to realise that potential.

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

Is there a sort of sum product going on where if you get nearly enough air kills and nearly enough ground kills and nearly enough ships and nearly enough hours it'll give the medal to you anyway for all-around achievement?

 

Not at the moment, but I've thought about doing something like that. With ships it probably wouldn't mean much, but a combined total of air and ground kills probably would be. 

 

For instance, in terms of kills, the DFM right now requires either 5 air kills or 25 ground kills. I could easily add another option where it could be earned with a combination of air and ground kills totalling at least 25. 

 

3 hours ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

Additional question, when we're thinking about actions above and beyond the call of duty that the game can't really model, do kills gained with the front guns of a bomber count for more against your medal total than with a fighter? I'm thinking particularly of Adrian Warburton, I don't think he got his VC specifically for becoming the world's only Maryland ace, but I suspect it helped his case along considerably. The A-20 is actually an impressive heavy fighter and it'd be neat to allow a bit of recognition for virtual pilots who decide to realise that potential.

 

Not at the moment, but it could be done with a bit of creativity. 

[AEthelraedUnraed]

18 hours ago, LukeFF said:

• Be in command of your squadron and have completed at least 300 missions

The problem I see with this, is that missions in IL2 are way more dense than missions in WW2. Depending on the date and location, there'd be tens of missions without any significant action before the single one where you'd meet some enemies. In IL2, conversely, almost every mission has significant combat. That's the reason I always play my careers on the "fast" setting, since otherwise I'd just get unrealistic amounts of kills in an unrealistically short time.

 

IMO, ideally, the medal allocation rules should also take this into account. So if a real pilot would see combat on average one of every 10 sorties, I'd expect the DSO to require 300/10=30 missions to be on par with the kill requirements (and of course likewise for other medals). @LukeFF, what are your thoughts on this?

Edited September 26, 2021 by AEthelraedUnraed

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

@LukeFF, what are your thoughts on this?

 

I dunno - there a few things I see there that could be problematic with reducing it to 30 missions. For one thing, the difficulty level at which the player plays in career mode does affect how many enemy planes one is going to encounter. Playing on the Easy difficulty level, for instance, is probably the most "realistic" difficulty level to use for an RAF Rhineland career.

 

The other issue I can see at the moment is the 30-mission requirement would be very easy to attain for the player. See, the way it works is the code is looking for kind of If/Then statements. In this case of the DSO, it is looking to see if you are an officer, are in command of the unit, and have completed 300 missions. Those 300 missions don't have to all be flown as the unit commander. In other words, if I have 295 missions completed when I am promoted to squadron commander, all I need is 5 more missions completed before I'd earn the DSO. So, assuming the player is meeting the mission objectives, they would have far in excess of 30 missions completed by the time they are promoted to squadron commander.

 

One more thing I'll bring up is that the DSO was more often than not reserved for senior unit commanders - we're talking Group Captains, Wing Commanders, etc. Squadron Leaders earning the award are uncommon (though of course not unheard of), and ranks below that are rare (Buzz Beurling is one example).

 

Lastly, I've based many of the RAF award requirements based on the medal citations that can be found here: http://www.rafcommands.com/database/awards/, since there were not really hard and fast rules about RAF award requirements, but rather what you see are general trends. So, if anyone's up for it, they can see if there are award criteria that could be used for the game that I've not yet implemented. 

Edited September 26, 2021 by LukeFF