The Swiss choose the F-35 as their next fighter

[LukeFF]

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021/06/30/lockheeds-f-35-topples-competition-in-swiss-fighter-contest/

[Gambit21]

I can only imagine what the F-35's avionics are capable of.

I like the way Israel does things myself.

 

[ZachariasX]

Oh @LukeFF, you really needed to trigger me?

 

While I probably voiced my enthusiasm for the F-35 as a one-size-fits-all choice enough, I find several things utterly remarkable about this deal. In short, it was indeed an offer Ms. Amherd could not refuse.

 

What we are supposed to be getting (that deal is NOT through yet but I will get to that) are 36 aircraft for 4.3 billion $ USD, this includes all the things it can throw and drop. For the residual 2.1 billion $, we are supposed to receive a new Patriot system. This deal is outwardly stunning, as competitors mainly used to maximize the budged but add various kinds of graft compensation business, like local assembly, the usual things just short of free service at the local whorehouses (which usually are provided in a more informal way). These generally make the item far more expensive in the end without the original vendor being responsible. How outlandish this current LM offer is, can be seen at the reaction of the shell-shocked competitors. The offer is about a 33% discount that Airbus and Dassault currently just try to talk away by saying things along the lines "but we are your friends", or, "but we can be your friends".

 

Another factor was that the aircraft was "easier to fly" then the competition, something I would translate into the F-35 actually having a decent user interface other than the clicking orgy distributed over a myriad of CASIO watch style dashboard elements that still give some leftover 90's cockpit charm to both Rafale and Eurofighter. Yes, they got speech recognition and such ("I need to ged owt of tha choppa!!") but still it is probably not the same.

 

Now let us assume that the contract for nothing less than a projected lifetime service is watertight.

Let us assume that law as such is any good even when deemed inconvenient.

 

Then we get 36 planes for 120 million $ a pop, including everything, when some claim the net naked unit price to be about 110 million $! If that is true, the US taxpayer pays at least 40 million $ per plane to be shipped here! If not, then they had to take another look at the 400 billion $ to be spent on 2'400 items, making it 166 million $ a piece! This would not have been just bank robbery; banks don't hold that kind of money.

 

In addition, one has to remember that the aircraft were selected for their surveillance and communication capabilities, the whole CCC package. The Americans made it clear that they would be happy to set up a European center of excellence in Switzerland as referenced in Luke's link.

 

Hence, regardless of how well the aircraft actually can fly, we would get ourselves a very delicate aircraft that has considerable maintenance issues that the competition has not, regardless of their actual service rate. this would be maintenance that for a good part couldn’t be done locally. This would eat directly into service rate of the aircraft. That stealth fighters have issues with such and what it can translate into was demonstrated in the USA with their Raptors when bad weather came. Just as an example. I mean, stealth in the way implemented in the F-22 or F-35 undoubtedly has its merits, but it is another question of whether you want its downsides on your entire fleet. But for that asking price...?

 

I said that this deal is not through yet. It isn't. The Federal Council only decided that they want the F-35 out of the selection provided. It will have to go through parliament (which it most likely will pass). This will take another year minimum. But some self declared pacifists (the ones that since the late 1980's want to abolish the Swiss armed forces and take any opportunity to do some damage in that regard) are threading on good old anti-Americanism to cast a national vote to put a sentence like "The government shall not buy any F-35 Lightning II fighters" in the constitution. They say they would not do it if the plane was a European one, but the American plane was evil because the Americans would be tapping our communications. You know, people who use Twitter, Google and Facebook for everything about their leves use this as an argument! This is the world in which we live today, and they are preparing their initiative. This means, actual procurement could be delayed up to three years.

 

Now would they have any success with such? Difficult to say, but probably not. There was a national vote on whether one should buy aircraft at all or not (a direct result of the Grippen procurement disaster) and that one was extremely narrow approved with 8670 votes in favor out of 3'202'730 votes cast! However, there was no Cantonal majority (majority of states) required, meaning just the actual number was relevant, but not the number of Cantons/states approving was relevant. Also here, a majority of Cantons approved the deal.

 

So far, nobody really thinks that they can win such a vote against odds where they actually had to win the majority of the Cantons. But it can get interesting.

 

Then again, it makes time pass and neither Dassault or Airbus will sit idle. I would not be surprided if they suddenly found lottsa fighter planes at 50% discount.

 

3 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

I can only imagine what the F-35's avionics are capable of.

 

Avionics is one speculative thing, but you most certainly need a lot of duct tape to put on the F-35 what they casually put on the F-16.

[Bremspropeller]

34 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

The offer is about a 33% discount that Airbus and Dassault currently just try to talk away by saying things along the lines "but we are your friends", or, "but we can be your friends".

 

Lockheed out-offering Dassault.

I wonder where I've heard this before... ?

 

Spoiler

 

[SYN_Vander]

2 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

Lockheed out-offering Dassault.

I wonder where I've heard this before... ?

 

  Hide contents

 

 

Same deal for the Netherlands...bribes were involved and it got a lot of young men killed -including my uncle- because they had to fly an aircraft designed for intercepting high altitude bombers at low level through the German countryside.

[Diggun]

Does the paint still fall off the F35 if you fly it fast?

 

In the UK we have achieved the remarkable feat of buying F35's that are able to be in two places at once - both at RAF Marham AND on board the QEII. Good trick that, hey?

 

I wonder if the maiden operational voyage of any other nation's air craft carrier has been carried out with 'native' owned and crewed aircraft on board outnumbered more than 2:1 by aircraft owned, crewed, and operated by another nation? Just another day on Normal Island...

[Bremspropeller]

I'm sorry about your uncle, Vander!

 

Truth is, bribes or not, the aircraft was probably best suited out of all airframes offered - and that was a "one size fits all" bill. An incredibly stupid idea tho begin with. If you look at how (at least the german) testing-programme was conducted (TLDR: there practically was none), there are several PhD-thesis to write out there...

The scandal was beyond just bribes - it was a collossal duck-up on many levels (in Germany). Not the least starting with "test pilots" that weren't.

 

And what's tragic beyond this story is that (at least the Germans) haven't learned zip. We're still buing hardware built to specs that are pre-historic by the time the procured unit finally reaches the troops. No matter whether that's airplanes, rifles, tanks or whatever.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Bremspropeller

[Irishratticus72]

It was the free "Royale with cheese" vouchers that swung it..... 

[Lusekofte]

Norway bought them too.

SAAB and Eurofighter was the competitors.

But to me it seems they had made up their mind before negotiation even begun. Norway got trade deals back that suppose to equal the purchase 

[Gambit21]

Deception, politics, lobbying, bribery, games - it’s always a major factor. That’s why the F-15C has lasted so long. The best aircraft isn’t always the winner (even if that was the case with the F-35)

 

Here’s a some interesting stuff on the FA-18F.

 

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CRECB-2000-pt1/html/CRECB-2000-pt1-Pg670.htm

 

 

Edited July 4, 2021 by Gambit21

[Eisenfaustus]

On 7/1/2021 at 2:30 PM, Bremspropeller said:

whether that's airplanes, rifles, tanks or whatever.

The Leopard 2A7 still is very competitive and the G36 is among the finest rifle for line units you’ll find in any army. Von der Leyen just has no clue about military hardware. 
 

And the Puma IFV in spite of all teething problems is nevertheless a first class combat vehicle ^^

[Hanu]

If a fighter plane has touchscreens, it is not meant to be used in combat.

[cardboard_killer]

1 hour ago, Hanu said:

If a fighter plane has touchscreens, it is not meant to be used in combat.

 

Since most fighters aren't used in combat, it only makes sense.

[Danziger]

I guess the exorbitant costs of the F-35 for American tax payers is to cover the costs of selling them at deep discounts to other countries? 

[ST_Catchov]

On 7/4/2021 at 9:11 AM, Gambit21 said:

Deception, politics, lobbying, bribery, games - it’s always a major factor.

 

Quite. Thank God we have politicians the world over of all political ideologies and persuasions to keep this kind of behaviour in check. 

[Cybermat47]

On 7/4/2021 at 9:11 AM, Gambit21 said:

Deception, politics, lobbying, bribery, games - it’s always a major factor. That’s why the F-15C has lasted so long. The best aircraft isn’t always the winner (even if that was the case with the F-35)

 

Sometimes, at least in the area of civil aircraft, those games end up causing an adult film star to dress up as a WWII pilot and carry out a kamikaze attack against the yakuza.

 

That's not a joke. In the 1970s, a yakuza chief named Kodama Yoshio was hired by Lockheed to pressure Japanese airlines into purchasing Lockheed aircraft. Kodama was also active in Japanese ultranationalist circles, and had gained the admiration of an ultranationalist amateur pilot and adult film star named Maeno Mitsuyasu. After the Lockheed scandal came to light, however, Maeno felt betrayed by Kodama's betrayal of the samurai code (and probably his co-operation with an American corporation). As a result, he dressed up as a WWII pilot and used an aircraft in a suicide attack on Kodama's home. Kodama was present (he was under house arrest), but the only casualties apart from Maeno were two injured servants. After his death, Maeno was criticised by newspapers which compared him to a neo-Nazi. One surviving member of a wartime kamikaze unit, Ito Keiichi, criticised his motives but praised his performance.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Cybermat47

[ZachariasX]

Asian male adult film star. There's things you can find when looking into the shanenigans of honest jet fighter sales that are simply beyond the grasp of the common people.

[Bremspropeller]

On 7/4/2021 at 2:58 PM, Eisenfaustus said:

G36 is among the finest rifle for line units you’ll find in any army

 

It is, but the stock optics blow in a contemporary match-up against newer guns.

Time to match the reciever with a new sight-system.

 

That could have been achieved without making a fool of oneself (see recent rifle duck-up).

[Eisenfaustus]

Just now, Bremspropeller said:

 

It is, but the stock optics blow in a contemporary match-up against newer guns.

Time to match the reciever with a new sight-system.

 

That could have been achieved without making a fool of oneself (see recent rifle duck-up).

The G36A1 is mainly used in support units - infantry use the G36A3 with far superior optics. 
Support units in many other armies use ironsights. 
So I disagree - the optics are awesome

But yes you‘re right - the failure to buy new rifles is embarrassing…

[Bremspropeller]

9 minutes ago, Eisenfaustus said:

other armies use ironsights.

 

Jester approves this