New Fire-Points (bunkers H634, H630, M272) Damage Model?

[DD_Friar]

Salute,

Many thanks for these new additions, which, in a test mission I now have opening fire on advancing tanks, however, they do not seem to suffer damage?

 

Am I just not trying hard enough (do they need aircraft bombs for example,  Sherman tank rounds are not enough?) or are they currently indestructible?

 

Regards

DD_Friar

[PatrickAWlson]

I suspect a 75mm HE round is not going to do too much damage to a concrete bunker.   They usually had to be penetrated with an armor piercing bomb.  In real life it was usually a guy running up to the back door and flipping in a grenade.  I doubt many of them were taken out by air due to the need for a direct hit.  Less sure about tanks, but I just can't see a 75mm penetrating a concrete emplacement..

[DD_Friar]

Hmm... looks like I am going to have to build another test mission with both tanks and fighter jocks having a go!

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

Cheers

Friar

[Avimimus]

It seems that the big vulnerability of the Maginot line was primarily the ventilation systems - and then some of them were only taken out by thick smokescreens allowing German infantry to physically reach them and attack demolition charges to weak points.

 

I suppose direct hits to the gun shields might jam movement or produce spalling that could kill some of the crew? But bunkers often had larger crews (allowing repairs and replacing lost crew like on a warship)?

 

Anyway... I wonder if we now need PC series bombs and BRABs? ? First time we'd have a use for them!

[LukeFF]

4 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

I suspect a 75mm HE round is not going to do too much damage to a concrete bunker.   They usually had to be penetrated with an armor piercing bomb.  In real life it was usually a guy running up to the back door and flipping in a grenade.  I doubt many of them were taken out by air due to the need for a direct hit.  Less sure about tanks, but I just can't see a 75mm penetrating a concrete emplacement..

 

There was one at Longues sur Mer that was taken out with 6-inch shells from Royal Navy cruiser HMS Ajax on D-Day, and the gun is still there. It was one heck of a shot:

 

https://www.d-daytoursnormandy.com/the-longues-sur-mer-battery-normandy-france/

 

Edited June 7, 2021 by LukeFF

[Avimimus]

I wonder what the probabilities were on that!

 

I suppose that means the SU-152 should be able to stand a chance?

[352ndOscar]

USA armored infantry units learned after d-day how to handle these hardened bunkers.  They would blast the surrounding area with mortar and artillery fire, driving the enemy inside the nearest bunker.  Then, using dozer tanks, they would pile up mounds of dirt against the openings and doors trapping the enemy inside.  Then they would move on to the next bunker, wasting little or no thought (or ammunition) on the occupants.

[DD_Friar]

So I had an idea...Although the bunker can not be destroyed, how about making it disabled?, so I created the following test.

1. I placed the H630 bunker on a map, made it a linked object, set it to Germany and high level. I also changed the damage setting from Threshold to Step and set it to 1

2. I then added an on damaged event to a counter that was set to 3 (with the assumption that a damage report is generated as each "step" is passed.)

3. I set the counter to 3

4. The counter then linked to a MCU Change Behaviour, the settings of which were to change the country to USA, thus stopping my tanks from attacking it and it from firing at the tanks (and so giving the impression of it being now disabled).

5. I placed 4 AI tanks directly in front of the bunker (out of range of the bunker machine gun)

 

Despite the 4 AI tanks blasting away for some time (something like 5 minutes), no damage updates were reported.

 

So, either there is something wrong with my mission logic (if so would welcome the advice or suggestion for better logic to try this scenario) or the bunkers have no damage model at all ? (/at the moment? will it get added for BON?) In which case in what scenario, as mission builders can we use them?

 

 

 

[BlitzPig_EL]

Two nights ago we discovered that there is only one weapon in the game that can kill Batterie Todt.  The 1800kg. German bomb.  I put one on a Ju88 and essentially did a low level "skip bomb" type of attack and plopped the big egg right down its throat.  One of my squad mates was circling and saw the bomb go into the front opening of the structure.  Attacks from any other of the large German bombs (1000kg.) or any of the largest Allied bombs were ineffective from any attack vector.

 

So until the Allies have a larger bomb than what is currently available, or get a battleship in game, the large emplacement is essentially invulnerable.

The ancestor of the death star.

[[DBS]Tx_Tip]

Circumvent the H630 as the target to be damaged or destroyed.

 

Place a Fake Vehicle or Vehicles in the H630 and have that as the Sherman's or aircrafts CMD: Attack object.

Of course the Fake Vehicles need to be activated before the Sherman's or aircraft.

Set up a Damage "Complete" along with the Behavior CMD for the H630 and Fake Vehicle(s) as you've already done but have the step damaged logic for the Fake Vehicle(s).

On Damaged the Fake Vehicle(s) blows up. Setting off a Big Explosion Effect. 

In test pics below set the Fake Vehicle perpendicular to the H630's opening so the Sherman's fired directly into the opening. 

 

Fake_Vehicle Blows up after sustaining Damage.

 

 

Explosion Effect Adds immersion to the event.

 

 

Good Luck with your Mission Design.

Tip

[DN308]

IRL, the only way allieds have blew these kinds of bunker was to pile up tons of TNT or all the shells and bombs they found on the battlefield and let it go.

In a battery in Normandy they piled so much TNT to little results that they even stop to do that with others.

 

Some bunkers took direct hits from heavies in 1943-44 and massive shelling from destroyers and line boats with only some scratches in the concrete’s surface, no more.

[=AD=uumembwa]

Even small bunker with machine guns i can't destroy with SU-152... 

[ruby_monkey]

Start bribing the devs for a Crocodile.

[[DBS]Tx_Tip]

Back on topic to finish up.

 

   Alternately, let's say you wish to have the Sherman's duke it out with the pillbox for a length of time. Tanks will fire upon a Fake_Vehicle on their own accord when target is in their line of sight. So no need to have a CMD: Attack targeted at this stage in the logic. 

 

   Initially set up the Fake_Vehicle as "Invulnerable" within its properties. The Sherman's will continue to fire on the pillbox.
Use Check Zone or other means to Target a Timer, set whatever to length you want, which in turn targets a CMD: Behaviour resetting the Fake_Vehicle to "Vulnerable". Additionally have this Timer target a CMD: Attack to ensure the Sherman's will continue to attack the pillbox to its' destruction or disability as so desired.

 

Here the Sherman's move up to the attack and duke it out for 45 seconds.

 

 

Then continue to fire after the vulnerability was changed on the Fake_Vehicle. Destroying the pillbox.

 

 

 

*Just a note. This logic stream will not work with AI Aircraft initially targeting the Fake_Vehicle as changing the behaviour within an objects properties required a "Force Complete" and subsequent commands to achieve the desired outcome.

 

Good Luck with your mission design.

Tip

[DD_Friar]

@[DBS]Tx_Tip Thanks for the suggestion. Perhaps rather than making it go boom, i will use the change behaviour to change the side to allied, thus stopping it from firing.

I am sure with direct hits on the gun would disable it, if not destroy the bunker, which is all I am after as it would be human players attacking it on route to a town.

 

Our posts past in the inter web.....

Thanks again

Edited June 12, 2021 by DD_Friar

[[DBS]Tx_Tip]

   Yeah, figured you were setting this up for the "Dogs" Friar.

Sounds fun. Having them pound away until just the Fake_Vehicle explodes, for visual confirmation, then resetting the pillbox to Allied. 

 

   Went the full monty for those who might be interested in setting this up for SP and or a combined AI, human venture.

All good. 

 

Tip

 

 

[BlitzPig_EL]

Interesting.

 

As an aside, I put 5 of the very volatile ammo trucks inside the Todt structure, and then attacked it with 2 1000lb. bombs from a P38.  Dropped the bombs directly through the gun aperture, which set off all the trucks in a very gratifying explosion, and yet, the gun remained fully active.  Very odd.  That kind of explosion would have killed every living being in that bunker. 

[DD_Friar]

So here are the fruits of my labour. I have attached a group for the bunker in case anyone else wants it.

What happens is after the first attack I have a timer set for 1 minute before the bunker explodes. So long as you do not tell the players that they will keep blasting away until it goes boom!.

 

https://youtu.be/3Bf2g9VItOw

 

 

BunkerH630.zip

[Beebop]

On 6/11/2021 at 4:38 AM, BlitzPig_EL said:

Two nights ago we discovered that there is only one weapon in the game that can kill Batterie Todt.  The 1800kg. German bomb.  I put one on a Ju88 and essentially did a low level "skip bomb" type of attack and plopped the big egg right down its throat.  One of my squad mates was circling and saw the bomb go into the front opening of the structure.  Attacks from any other of the large German bombs (1000kg.) or any of the largest Allied bombs were ineffective from any attack vector.

 

So until the Allies have a larger bomb than what is currently available, or get a battleship in game, the large emplacement is essentially invulnerable.

The ancestor of the death star.

A Lancaster was having breakfast at a Denny's and asked a waiter named Tall Boy, "May I have a Grand Slam please?"

[[DBS]Tx_Tip]

On 6/12/2021 at 8:59 AM, BlitzPig_EL said:

Interesting.

 

As an aside, I put 5 of the very volatile ammo trucks inside the Todt structure, and then attacked it with 2 1000lb. bombs from a P38.  Dropped the bombs directly through the gun aperture, which set off all the trucks in a very gratifying explosion, and yet, the gun remained fully active.  Very odd.  That kind of explosion would have killed every living being in that bunker. 

 

Your on the right track. Although I'm not sure that you understand the logic stream to achieve that goal or you are merely making an observation.

 

Revisiting the posts above. Using a CMD: Damage "Complete" was suggested and shown as a reliable way to destroy the ToDT itself.

In Friar's group, the ToDT changes sides from Axis to Allied. Thereby silencing the gun. But not destroying it.

 

The Ammo Trucks as you have set up can be used as the catalyst to targeting that Damage CMD.

 

Tip

[dino_soars]

I did some quick testing this evening. I placed a dot6 block (found in Buildings) under the m272 and linked an OnKilled event to a Command Damage MCU set to Damage  Type: Damage and Damage Level: Complete. The Command Damage MCU is object linked to the m272. Essentially, destroying the dot6 block destroys the m272. I ran the dot6 block at 50k, 75k, 100k, and 125k durability and hit it with 500 lb (M64) and 1000 lb (M65) bombs. Here's what I found:

• 50k durability takes 1x1000 and 2x500
• 75k durability takes 2x1000 and 3x500
• 100k durability takes 3x1000 and 4x500
• 125k durability takes 4x1000 and 5x500

The results came out nice and linear but I wish the 1000 lb bombs did a little more damage. I'm probably going to go with the 75k durability version so a P-47 can take one out and a P-38 can bag two  I have no idea if it is realistic for a 500 lb bomb to destroy one of these bunkers.

 

I also tested the h630 with 1000 lb bombs and got the same results as the m272. I did have one outlier where 2x1000 lb bombs destroyed an h630 with 125k durability. 

 

Some details of the test, which you can ignore if you'd like. I dropped bombs individually, not in pairs. I aimed for the front of the pillboxes and made sure my bombs were dead on. I placed the dot6 block between the gun and interior wall in the m272 (a little closer to the front) and in the center of the rectangular portion of the h630 (offset a bit compared to the real center). I set up 20% damage steps with subtitles and everything was consistent with each drop---probably +/- 10% damage per drop. I also tried the M8 4.5in rockets but had no luck.

 

Let me know if you have any questions.