Game version 4.602 discussion: Typhoon Mk.Ib, Fokker D.VIII, other changes

[=gRiJ=Roman-]

There must be a surprise on the 6th!

Reading the Antony Beevor book about Normandy and finally this expansion is growing on me. However, it is one-sided in the air.

Only Pips? Strafed the beaches in a quick passed and that's it. Right?

[HamishUK]

On 6/2/2021 at 2:40 AM, Avimimus said:

 

Well, it was designed as a fighter, and particularly, as an interceptor.

 

However, while it was discovered to be fast enough on the deck to be one of the only aircraft capable of catching the very low-altitude Fw-190 Jabo raids that had been crossing the channel, it's high altitude performance was found lacking. Eventually it was displaced by the Tempest in the interceptor role.

 

In 1942 the Hurricane was being withdrawn from the fighter-bomber role, so they reasonably converted the newer Hawker fighter with the good low-altitude performance to this role - first with bombs, then with larger bombs, then with rocket equipped squadrons (often suppressing anti-aircraft guns for the bomber squadrons). The Typhoon did become the RAF's main daylight bomber (other than small numbers of Havocs and B-25s), but it was designed as an interceptor.

 

P.S. I think the difference here is between 'designed' and 'used'. In use it was most important as a bomber... in its initial design it didn't even have bomb racks.

Spot on. 

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, =gRiJ=Roman- said:

Reading the Antony Beevor book about Normandy and finally this expansion is growing on me. However, it is one-sided in the air.

Only Pips? Strafed the beaches in a quick passed and that's it. Right?

 

It's a bit more complex than that  - the Luftwaffe did respond vigorously to the invasion, but the problem was that they were vastly outnumbered.

[Cybermat47]

1 hour ago, =gRiJ=Roman- said:

However, it is one-sided in the air.

Only Pips? Strafed the beaches in a quick passed and that's it. Right?

 

 

 

 

[PatrickAWlson]

5 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

It's a bit more complex than that  - the Luftwaffe did respond vigorously to the invasion, but the problem was that they were vastly outnumbered.

 

By that time the vast majority of the LW in the West was in defense of the Reich mode as well.  Most of the tactical capability was in the East.  My guess is that the LW commanders knew pretty well that they were screwed, but without the resources to cover the East, West, and homeland there's not much that they could do.

 

That left a few FW190 ground attack units and our upcoming Ju88c being thrown against the invasion, with predictable results.

Edited June 3, 2021 by PatrickAWlson

[Hanu]

Big thanks to team and special thanks for ICDP of those 4 generic skins for Typhoon! They will be very handy with the new Decals!

[Avimimus]

The weakness of the Luftwaffe (and failure of the defence overall) in 1944 makes Operation Jubilee interesting as a comparison. We can also largely model it on existing maps... but we'd really need a lot of new variants of existing aircraft for it to be accurate (and that might mean it isn't feasible). I also find it tempting because of the cannon armed Mustang I and the extensive use of the Do-217E.

[Sneaksie]

Dear friends,

We just released 4.602b hotfix for the recent update to make your life easier in anticipation for the coming weekend:

 

1. Dropping cargo containers and paratroopers from C-47 together won't crash the game;
2. A correct amount of C-47 cargo containers and paratroopers is shown on the equipment screen;
3. C-47s drop cargo containers and paratroopers simultaneously;
4. Hispano Mk.IIs installed on Typhoon have correct firing sound (the firing rate itself was correct);
5. Typhoon pilot puts off his oxygen mask on the ground when the engine is turned off and at low altitudes if the cockpit canopy is open;
6. LaGG-3, La-5 and La-5FN AI pilots won't wobble their planes along the roll axis during takeoff and landing;
7. Tempest AI piots perform taxiing faster;
8. Typhoon AI pilots better keep the direction when taxiing;
9. Typhoon right elevator trimmer animation is corrected (it was visually inverted);
10. In the quick mission mode 'Skirmish' the player is back in charge of his flight;
11. Ju-52 paratroopers level of detail decreases further from the camera.

 

Enjoy!
IL-2 Sturmovik Team

[kendo]

32 minutes ago, Sneaksie said:

5. Typhoon pilot puts off his oxygen mask on the ground when the engine is turned off and at low altitudes if the cockpit canopy is open;

 

 

I love number 5.

 

Great attention to detail.

[RedKestrel]

28 minutes ago, kendo said:

 

I love number 5.

 

Great attention to detail.

I want a mod to keep mine on all the time, I don't mess around with no CO poisoning. 

[senseispcc]

1 hour ago, kendo said:

 

I love number 5.

 

Great attention to detail.

+1. 

[Irishratticus72]

[Vortice]

[Chief_Mouser]

4 minutes ago, Vortice said:

 

Poor old RBJ. Nobody even mentioned trim on a slider...

[Rjel]

4 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

I want a mod to keep mine on all the time, I don't mess around with no CO poisoning. 

That and the pilots just look cooler with the mask on.

[=PCM=Newtz]

6 hours ago, Sneaksie said:

4. Hispano Mk.IIs installed on Typhoon have correct firing sound (the firing rate itself was correct);

Glad to know you guys are listening to every opinion from the community. The best sim development team yet!  

[Vortice]

2 hours ago, 216th_Cat said:

 

Poor old RBJ. Nobody even mentioned trim on a slider...

 

I think we should, even if just once in a while to confuse teh n00bs. 

 

 

[JG7_X-Man]

17 hours ago, =gRiJ=Roman- said:

There must be a surprise on the 6th!

Reading the Antony Beevor book about Normandy and finally this expansion is growing on me. However, it is one-sided in the air.

Only Pips? Strafed the beaches in a quick passed and that's it. Right?

 

@=gRiJ=Roman-That is not exactly accurate.  Pips and his wingman Heinz Wodarczyk were the 1st to attack that morning about 08:00.

JG2's C.O. scored the 1st Luftwaffe kill vs a P-47 about an hour later when I./JG 2 and III./JG 2 attacked the invasion force and encountered the USAAF fighters.

Also, III./JG 26 attacked again later that day around noon. This attack was collaborated by a D-Day story I watched on the History Channel about a surviving US Navy sailor or GI that was hit by shrapnel aboard a naval vessel from a strafing 109.

[oc2209]

Does anyone know the Typhoon's turn rate when it has the 4-bladed prop and the improved engine? No extra mods besides, 100% fuel load.

 

I'm just wondering because I had a marginally difficult time keeping up with a Typhoon (AI pilot) in a sustained turn; both in a Yak-9 and in an La-5FN. Going by those unscientific tests, I'd estimate the fully improved Typhoon turn rate to be no greater than 21 seconds.

 

Edit:

 

After more tests, I've found I can turn inside a Tempest (w/engine mod) while I was in a Typhoon with no mods. I also found I couldn't turn with a Typhoon while in a Fw-190 A-6, even though on paper they're about equal.

 

Note that I'm not complaining. I'm analyzing. The Typhoon seems to have certain directional instability issues that contribute to its turning ability. I was able to easily perform what felt like hammerhead turns; even though I rarely manage to succeed with other planes. All the Typhoon's agility is in its tail; the roll rate is probably the worst I've ever experienced. All in all, it's much more interesting than I expected it to be.

Edited June 4, 2021 by oc2209

[ShamrockOneFive]

2 hours ago, oc2209 said:

Does anyone know the Typhoon's turn rate when it has the 4-bladed prop and the improved engine? No extra mods besides, 100% fuel load.

 

I'm just wondering because I had a marginally difficult time keeping up with a Typhoon (AI pilot) in a sustained turn; both in a Yak-9 and in an La-5FN. Going by those unscientific tests, I'd estimate the fully improved Typhoon turn rate to be no greater than 21 seconds.

 

Edit:

 

After more tests, I've found I can turn inside a Tempest (w/engine mod) while I was in a Typhoon with no mods. I also found I couldn't turn with a Typhoon while in a Fw-190 A-6, even though on paper they're about equal.

 

Note that I'm not complaining. I'm analyzing. The Typhoon seems to have certain directional instability issues that contribute to its turning ability. I was able to easily perform what felt like hammerhead turns; even though I rarely manage to succeed with other planes. All the Typhoon's agility is in its tail; the roll rate is probably the worst I've ever experienced. All in all, it's much more interesting than I expected it to be.

 

In some combat reports I've read, there was an instance where a Fw190 and Typhoon were locked in a turning fight over the channel right at sea level and the Typhoon pilot was able to hold and then gain on the Fw190. So I'm not too surprised that the Fw190 is going to struggle to keep up with a Typhoon in everything except instantaneous turn (which I'm intuitively guessing is still in the 190s ball court).

[Juri_JS]

4 hours ago, JG7_X-Man said:

JG2's C.O. scored the 1st Luftwaffe kill vs a P-47 about an hour later when I./JG 2 and III./JG 2 attacked the invasion force and encountered the USAAF fighters.

The first Luftwaffe kills on D-Day were scored by I./SKG 10. The unit was the first to react when reports of glider landings came in during the night and flew armed recon missions. Early in the morning around 5:00 four of the units Fw-190s attacked allied bombers and shot down four Lancasters near Carentan and Isigny. Three Lancasters were claimed shot down by Hauptmann Helmut Eberspacher, the fourth by Fw. Eisele

[nesher666]

11 hours ago, oc2209 said:

Does anyone know the Typhoon's turn rate when it has the 4-bladed prop and the improved engine? No extra mods besides, 100% fuel load.

 

I'm just wondering because I had a marginally difficult time keeping up with a Typhoon (AI pilot) in a sustained turn; both in a Yak-9 and in an La-5FN. Going by those unscientific tests, I'd estimate the fully improved Typhoon turn rate to be no greater than 21 seconds.

 

Edit:

 

After more tests, I've found I can turn inside a Tempest (w/engine mod) while I was in a Typhoon with no mods. I also found I couldn't turn with a Typhoon while in a Fw-190 A-6, even though on paper they're about equal.

 

Note that I'm not complaining. I'm analyzing. The Typhoon seems to have certain directional instability issues that contribute to its turning ability. I was able to easily perform what felt like hammerhead turns; even though I rarely manage to succeed with other planes. All the Typhoon's agility is in its tail; the roll rate is probably the worst I've ever experienced. All in all, it's much more interesting than I expected it to be.

Just keep in mind that the AI (even on Ace level) is normally not "max performing" it's aircraft, and on top of that there are some serious differences on how well the AI is able to handle the different kind of aircraft in this sim. 

 

A great example for this behaviour is the P-38J-25, while human pilots are able to make her dance around most of the german opposition, the AI is doing a really terrible job at flying the big Lightning (they are shot to piece in most of the time), not managing the kinetic energy, the trims, flaps and the guns (properly). 

 

On the opposite side the AI is quite capable - o. c. not as much as a human would be - with the 109 series (especially the K4), excellent aim, quite OK stick handling (luckily they don't black out so soon as they did previously) which can pose a serious threat to less experienced human pilots. 

[jollyjack]

22 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

I want a mod to keep mine on all the time, I don't mess around with no CO poisoning. 

 

You are using nitrous oxide gas i presume?

[RedKestrel]

6 minutes ago, jollyjack said:

 

You are using nitrous oxide gas i presume?

No, I don't indulge in such things. It is pure coincidence that my flying is such that it induces laughter and giddiness in OTHER pilots, not myself.
 

[CountZero]

On 6/3/2021 at 9:08 AM, =gRiJ=Roman- said:

There must be a surprise on the 6th!

Reading the Antony Beevor book about Normandy and finally this expansion is growing on me. However, it is one-sided in the air.

Only Pips? Strafed the beaches in a quick passed and that's it. Right?

https://www.dday-overlord.com/en/d-day/german-forces/luftwaffe/6-june-1944

compared to amount of airplanes allieds used and amount of sorties they did, yes, its like axis airforce was not even there, few did try but thats nothing if you look what allieds had.

 

 

[blitze]

1 hour ago, CountZero said:

https://www.dday-overlord.com/en/d-day/german-forces/luftwaffe/6-june-1944

compared to amount of airplanes allieds used and amount of sorties they did, yes, its like axis airforce was not even there, few did try but thats nothing if you look what allieds had.

 

 

Yeah, about that - remember the East Front?  I think for Germany that was where the crux of the war was.  Fighting what they though at the time were Bolshevik Communists.  Little did they know there were changes a foot in the Union to the East.

[cardboard_killer]

15 minutes ago, blitze said:

I think for Germany that was where the crux of the war was. 

 

Actually, the strategic plan for 1944 was to go on defense in Belorus and Ukraine, and mass forces to inflict a heavy loss on the invading WAllied forces, then reorient back east. However, even before that, much of the LW was recalled to Germany to defend against the WAllied strategic bombing campaign. The losses sustained over Germany from January to June were irreplaceable, but there was no other choice, as to allow the bombing campaign to go on undefended would have been even more disastrous.

[Juri_JS]

1 hour ago, CountZero said:

https://www.dday-overlord.com/en/d-day/german-forces/luftwaffe/6-june-1944

compared to amount of airplanes allieds used and amount of sorties they did, yes, its like axis airforce was not even there, few did try but thats nothing if you look what allieds had.

What's always forgotten in such overviews of Luftwaffe activity on DDay are the missions flown by recon units, especially those equipped with the Bf-109 (Nagr. 13 and parts of (F)/123). Numerous missions were flown on 6 June by these units to get a better picture of what was going on. Of course results were rather limited because of strong fighter opposition, but apparently some visual reconnaissance missions  to Sword beach and the American drop zones were successful.

[Avimimus]

Small number of aircraft and lower sortie rate made it almost a 50/1 ratio (around the time of D-Day).

[oc2209]

15 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

In some combat reports I've read, there was an instance where a Fw190 and Typhoon were locked in a turning fight over the channel right at sea level and the Typhoon pilot was able to hold and then gain on the Fw190. So I'm not too surprised that the Fw190 is going to struggle to keep up with a Typhoon in everything except instantaneous turn (which I'm intuitively guessing is still in the 190s ball court).

 

On paper, the 190 and (unmodified, I presume) Typhoon have about equal turn rates--circa 23 seconds. But yes, I would assume in sustained turning, a Typhoon would be more stable. However, in game terms, I can usually turn inside planes that have roughly equal turn times.

 

6 hours ago, nesher666 said:

Just keep in mind that the AI (even on Ace level) is normally not "max performing" it's aircraft, and on top of that there are some serious differences on how well the AI is able to handle the different kind of aircraft in this sim. 

 

A great example for this behaviour is the P-38J-25, while human pilots are able to make her dance around most of the german opposition, the AI is doing a really terrible job at flying the big Lightning (they are shot to piece in most of the time), not managing the kinetic energy, the trims, flaps and the guns (properly). 

 

On the opposite side the AI is quite capable - o. c. not as much as a human would be - with the 109 series (especially the K4), excellent aim, quite OK stick handling (luckily they don't black out so soon as they did previously) which can pose a serious threat to less experienced human pilots. 

 

Agreed. The P-47 in particular can't turn at all in AI hands, nor can the Fw-190. It's adequate in the Spitfire and Tempest, but clearly holds back sometimes for fear of blackout. I think it handles the Hurricane fairly well. The Yak and La-5FN are somewhat underutilized. 

 

Nevertheless, I do compare apples to apples here. I know the relative difficulty of catching certain AI-controlled planes, and the Typhoon definitely does not turn like it has a 23 second radius. What I can't decide is whether it's over or under the threshold of what I consider the standard fighter turn time--20 seconds. I call it standard because several planes share it, including the P-51, the Tempest, the P-38, and the Fw-190D. Anything under 20, I consider a better-than-average turner. Anything higher is obviously worse.

[=621=Samikatz]

16 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

On paper, the 190 and (unmodified, I presume) Typhoon have about equal turn rates--circa 23 seconds. But yes, I would assume in sustained turning, a Typhoon would be more stable. However, in game terms, I can usually turn inside planes that have roughly equal turn times.

 

The airplane has a fairly low stall speed, and an American report on the type said it had a short turn radius for a fighter. I don't know enough about the type to know if the in-game performance is accurate, but I shouldn't expect it to turn badly at all

[oc2209]

36 minutes ago, =621=Samikatz said:

 

The airplane has a fairly low stall speed, and an American report on the type said it had a short turn radius for a fighter. I don't know enough about the type to know if the in-game performance is accurate, but I shouldn't expect it to turn badly at all

 

Well, that's the thing. The Typhoon's 23.4 seconds (listed in the game stat page) is a pretty bad turn time. For frame of reference, that's the same rate as the 190A-6, and the combat power (not full emergency) turn time of the 109G-14. So what I'm wondering is why the listed time is so high, when the actual performance seems to belie that number. With or without the engine mod and 4-bladed prop.

 

I just had a 5 minute duel against a modded Typhoon, with myself in an La-5FN (21 second turn time), on the deck. I had the opportunity to pull lead twice early in the fight (both times I missed, once from insufficient lead, the other time from poor aiming). I then lost speed and altitude (which the AI sustained in its turns) and with various tricks had to laboriously get my altitude back without leaving myself vulnerable to attack. I was unable to attack him again, however, before the AI pilot blacked out and crashed. Technically I still failed to catch him legitimately. Was I flying perfectly? No, almost certainly not. But the point is that he was hard to catch.

 

In a previous test I hit the Typhoon in the same instances where I missed above. But if I waste those early opportunities, I seem to lose energy (unless I sacrifice altitude in the turn) faster than the Typhoon in sustained turns.

[oc2209]

Rather than explain what I mean regarding the Typhoon, I'll just show it:

 

Spoiler

 

 

In the test, I have the engine mod and the 4-blade prop. The Hurricane has the engine mod as well, and standard armament.

 

The Hurricane turn rate is listed as being 16.8 seconds (if memory serves). The Typhoon's is 23.4; other ~23 second turners in the sim include: Fw-190s, late 109 series (on combat power), Bf-110Gs, and 1941 Sturmoviks. In other words, unexceptional turners.

 

I could have hit the Hurricane earlier in the clip, but let him enter a full turn just to show I could easily out-turn him. At one point at the end of the segment where the AI was trying to make me overshoot, I was going right around 100 MPH. I was on the verge of stalling (by the feel of it), so I gave the engine power a few seconds before the Hurricane began to accelerate. Otherwise, in my opinion, we entered the turn on fairly equal footing.

 

If anyone's wondering what the point of my test is, I'm trying to figure out what the Typhoon's turn rate is. All I know is, it really doesn't feel like 23 seconds, or other planes with that turn rate.

[Field-Ops]

Instantaneous turn rate is not what the turn time is measured at. Turn time is measured for a full 360 at a constant speed. Doing these instantaneous turns bleed speed beyond sustainability and thats why it doesnt have a higher listed turn rate. The Fw190 has a similar characteristic where instantaneous turn rate is excellent but sustained turn rate is not. 

[oc2209]

36 minutes ago, Field-Ops said:

Instantaneous turn rate is not what the turn time is measured at. Turn time is measured for a full 360 at a constant speed. Doing these instantaneous turns bleed speed beyond sustainability and thats why it doesnt have a higher listed turn rate. The Fw190 has a similar characteristic where instantaneous turn rate is excellent but sustained turn rate is not. 

 

I realize that.

 

Except, when I'm chasing an AI-flown Typhoon, it doesn't lose speed in much longer turns than the one I showed.

 

Comparing more equal engine powers, I easily out-turned a Tempest, which I'd given the boosted engine; while I was in an unmodded Typhoon.

 

Edit:

 

Did a few more tests just now. Unmodded, I could easily turn inside a Yak-9. I failed to keep up with a Spit IX with 150 octane. However, with the prop and engine mods added, I did defeat the Spit quite handily in a sustained turn. Also defeated a 109G-6 Late with MW-50 in a turn.

 

In other words, there's no plane in the sim that the Typhoon can't out-turn.

 

The only explanation I can think of is that the wing thickness, surface area, and shape, are reminiscent (to me at least) of the Zero.

Edited June 5, 2021 by oc2209

[Bernard_IV]

Loving the Typhoon.  The rocket loadout is great.

[Ringlett]

I must commend you on the beautiful Typhoon. I loved this plane in Il-2 ´46 and I must say that I don´t regret my purchase of the Normandy at the moment.
Thanks!

 

 

Why doesn't the game remember my code set on the aircraft?
Every time I log into the game and the server I have to set it again.
Will this work for other planes in the game?

[Quax]

On 6/2/2021 at 4:33 PM, NIK14 said:

 

No reaction to the fact that the trim tabs are moving opposite directions on the horizontal stab though? Do you not sense the plane rolling when trim is applied? And you are a tester...

 

It works correct. Has it been fixed in the hotfix ?

[Fritz_X]

18 minutes ago, Quax said:

 

It works correct. Has it been fixed in the hotfix ?

 

Yes.

 

9. Typhoon right elevator trimmer animation is corrected (it was visually inverted)

Edited June 5, 2021 by Fritz_X

[BlitzPig_EL]

Yes.  Read the notes on the hotfix.  It was an animation issue and had nothing to do with FMs.