tiger's frontal turret is penetrated by sherman???

[NoelGallagher]

as you can see sherman penetrate the tiger's frontal turret with aphe rounds at 1km distance 

 

in my own knowledge it shouldn't happen

 

the shell had gone through where the gun optic is located 

 

is it possible?

 

 

i did some research and the conclusion is it shouldn't happen anyway

 

unless the size of the incoming shell fit within the size of the optic 

 

also the angle of the incoming shell is directly aligned (perfect 90 degree) with where the gun optic is 

 

since the sherman fire the shot from 1km distance with more than 30 degree angle

 

it's utterly rediculous 

 

LOL it happened in reality 

 

here's a picture of tiger got hit at the gunner's optic area 

 

the shell didn't penetrate through and this tank managed to get back to HQ

Edited May 25, 2021 by NoelGallagher

[LachenKrieg]

Please, please fix the gun:armor performance in Tank Crew. Tank Crew should be the de facto training SIM for WWII armor, not an arcade shooter. 

[DD_Crash]

Gunner out of service

[ElbellaHood]

A direct pen throurgh gunner's optic must be very hurt for the gunner.

[palker4]

boom headshot

 

[LachenKrieg]

At 1000m, it is not likely that the Sherman could penetrate the Tigers gun mantlet even hitting the gunner's sight like that (approx. 60mm vs 100+). 

[Voidhunger]

16 hours ago, NoelGallagher said:

as you can see sherman penetrate the tiger's frontal turret with aphe rounds at 1km distance 

 

in my own knowledge it shouldn't happen

 

the shell had gone through where the gun optic is located 

 

is it possible?

Good thing is that your Tiger is not a toast! I saw that once or twice.   Great achievement!

Edited May 25, 2021 by Voidhunger

[NoelGallagher]

i did some research and the conclusion is it shouldn't happen anyway

 

unless the size of the incoming shell fit within the size of the optic 

 

also the angle of the incoming shell is directly aligned (perfect 90 degree) with where the gun optic is 

 

since the sherman fire the shot from 1km distance with more than 30 degree angle

 

it's utterly rediculous 

[LachenKrieg]

2 hours ago, Voidhunger said:

Good thing is that your Tiger is not a toast! I saw that once or twice.   Great achievement!

It might as well be, he is basically left with a driver. And even if he could make it to a RRR zone, you can't replace dead crew. So

[Voidhunger]

Maybe the round didnt penetrate and the damage mainly to the crew was done by armor spaling.

 

 

M26 Peshing was clearly penetrated to the machine gun port by the 88.

Ok it was from 100 yards, but I think even not penetrating direct hit to the machine gun/optics will ruin the day for the man behind.

I know that picture of that tiger with the multiple 122mm hits and I think that the crew was very lucky to survive.

I remember Walter Lau report (gunner from Helmut Wendorffs tiger) in which he wrote he almost lost an eye when he fell on the monocular sight, when the Tiger was hit.

 

but some randomness to damage model would be nice when the vision slot/gun optics, machine gun is hit.

Right now every hit to the vision slot/gun optics, machine gun means exploded tank, which is nonsence.

 

Panther hit directly to the gunner optics by 76mm.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Voidhunger

[LachenKrieg]

1 hour ago, Voidhunger said:

Maybe the round didnt penetrate and the damage mainly to the crew was done by armor spaling.

 

 

M26 Peshing was clearly penetrated to the machine gun port by the 88.

Ok it was from 100 yards, but I think even not penetrating direct hit to the machine gun/optics will ruin the day for the man behind.

I know that picture of that tiger with the multiple 122mm hits and I think that the crew was very lucky to survive.

I remember Walter Lau report (gunner from Helmut Wendorffs tiger) in which he wrote he almost lost an eye when he fell on the monocular sight, when the Tiger was hit.

 

but some randomness to damage model would be nice when the vision slot/gun optics, machine gun is hit.

Right now every hit to the vision slot/gun optics, machine gun means exploded tank, which is nonsence.

 

Panther hit directly to the gunner optics by 76mm.

 

 

 

 

Well there is a reason why the Pershing was penetrated.

 

But I agree, I think they need to go back to the drawing board concerning gun:armor performance. IRL, you would pretty much have to get a good shot on the side of a Panther when shooting from a Sherman. But in Tank Crew, he just has to point his gun at you regardless of the angle or direction. It takes so much away from game play, especially MP. If your in a Pz IV, you can hit a Sherman several times from almost point blank only to have him give you that one-tap-dirt-nap after he figures out where you are.

[ShampooX]

On 5/24/2021 at 2:56 PM, LachenKrieg said:

Please, please fix the gun:armor performance in Tank Crew. Tank Crew should be the de facto training SIM for WWII armor, not an arcade shooter. 

THIS!!!!!

[Carl_infar]

Personnaly i have quite the  opposite experience. (At least online, i didnt try much the sp)

 

Usually i get killed in the sherman with first max 2 round that hits. I dont remeber to be able to tank more .

 

The panthers i managed to kill only with side shots. I fought the tigers only few times and even when hiting the side and rear while it was moving trough the town from maybe 50 metres i didnt do a thing with aphe. I tried lower glacies or turret with same result or to say lack of it.

 

So either i was unlucky or You were.

 

Anyway in rl also different thinghs happend. For example 1 Pershing was hit by only one 88 round from nashorn and was a total loss, while another Pershing got hit 7 times by Tiger 88 and was repaired...

 

One Tiger was also captured in tunisia when a frontal hit from a Churchill jammed its turret ring...

 

Especially also starting 1944 the armor quality of german tanks deterirated due to the fact that they lost acces to some steel alloying elements and substitued them with others. That resulted in excessive spalling and cracking from not penetrating hits.

 

As a side note during recent years in the donbass when the tanks modern armor couldnt be breached they were fireing he which was destroying optics, jamming turrets, injureing crew from concussions, sometimes even blowing off the turrets.

 

[JG27_Steini]

1 hour ago, Carl_infar said:

Personnaly i have quite the  opposite experience. (At least online, i didnt try much the sp)

 

Usually i get killed in the sherman with first max 2 round that hits. I dont remeber to be able to tank more .

 

The panthers i managed to kill only with side shots. I fought the tigers only few times and even when hiting the side and rear while it was moving trough the town from maybe 50 metres i didnt do a thing with aphe. I tried lower glacies or turret with same result or to say lack of it.

 

So either i was unlucky or You were.

 

Anyway in rl also different thinghs happend. For example 1 Pershing was hit by only one 88 round from nashorn and was a total loss, while another Pershing got hit 7 times by Tiger 88 and was repaired...

 

One Tiger was also captured in tunisia when a frontal hit from a Churchill jammed its turret ring...

 

Especially also starting 1944 the armor quality of german tanks deterirated due to the fact that they lost acces to some steel alloying elements and substitued them with others. That resulted in excessive spalling and cracking from not penetrating hits.

 

As a side note during recent years in the donbass when the tanks modern armor couldnt be breached they were fireing he which was destroying optics, jamming turrets, injureing crew from concussions, sometimes even blowing off the turrets.

 

 

Everything right, but it has nothing to do with current bugs in the game. 

[LachenKrieg]

4 hours ago, Carl_infar said:

Personnaly i have quite the  opposite experience. (At least online, i didnt try much the sp)

 

Usually i get killed in the sherman with first max 2 round that hits. I dont remeber to be able to tank more .

 

The panthers i managed to kill only with side shots. I fought the tigers only few times and even when hiting the side and rear while it was moving trough the town from maybe 50 metres i didnt do a thing with aphe. I tried lower glacies or turret with same result or to say lack of it.

 

So either i was unlucky or You were.

 

Anyway in rl also different thinghs happend. For example 1 Pershing was hit by only one 88 round from nashorn and was a total loss, while another Pershing got hit 7 times by Tiger 88 and was repaired...

 

One Tiger was also captured in tunisia when a frontal hit from a Churchill jammed its turret ring...

 

Especially also starting 1944 the armor quality of german tanks deterirated due to the fact that they lost acces to some steel alloying elements and substitued them with others. That resulted in excessive spalling and cracking from not penetrating hits.

 

As a side note during recent years in the donbass when the tanks modern armor couldnt be breached they were fireing he which was destroying optics, jamming turrets, injureing crew from concussions, sometimes even blowing off the turrets.

 

Your side shot to kill a panther is what we would expect, but hitting a Tiger from point blank at the back is an example of how the game needs to be tuned up. When you get knocked out in the Sherman, do you know which tank fired the shot?

 

I have tried knocking out a Sherman with a Panther before at <500m, and sometimes needed 8 shots. And in the PzIV, I a large number of times I have seen on-line and off where I can hit the Sherman even with multiple direct side shots with no effect only to have the Sherman put me out with a single shot.

 

And you are right about armor quality at the end of the war, but Tank Crew should model the armor effectiveness to its full thickness IMO.

[Carl_infar]

2 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

Your side shot to kill a panther is what we would expect, but hitting a Tiger from point blank at the back is an example of how the game needs to be tuned up. When you get knocked out in the Sherman, do you know which tank fired the shot?

 

I have tried knocking out a Sherman with a Panther before at <500m, and sometimes needed 8 shots. And in the PzIV, I a large number of times I have seen on-line and off where I can hit the Sherman even with multiple direct side shots with no effect only to have the Sherman put me out with a single shot.

 

And you are right about armor quality at the end of the war, but Tank Crew should model the armor effectiveness to its full thickness IMO.

I Play exclusively online on finnish server, so its easy, i check who killed me in stats. 

 

At least in my case pzIv need not more than 2  penetrating hits to kill me 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Carl_infar

[JG1_Wittmann]

On 5/25/2021 at 11:26 PM, Carl_infar said:

Anyway in rl also different thinghs happend. For example 1 Pershing was hit by only one 88 round from nashorn and was a total loss, while another Pershing got hit 7 times by Tiger 88 and was repaired...

 

 

 

 

That is an apples to oranges comparison.  Nashorn has an 88 L/71       Tiger has an 88 L/56        More than 4 ft longer on the barrel and @ 300 M/S higher MV

[SCG_judgedeath3]

Cant remember if the german tanks used direct optics or if they were mirrored: direct: the sight and optics is just straight on and if a shell hits there, part of explosion and shrapnel would go through the hole and the optics and inside the tank like they do inw arthunder and world of tanks, or if its mirrored, then only the optics will be damaged but no damage to the tank itself.

For fun: american tanks only faced 3 tigers in total from D-day to the defeate of germany, and some myths about shermans not having good armour:

 

[Peasant]

A difference between the mantlet on Tiger I hit by a Sherman with 75mm gun and the mantlet on M26 hit by 88mm gun is that the latter wouldnt've saved the tank even if the hit didnt land on the gunner's optic. The M26 had relatively thin mantlet armor.

[Carl_infar]

On 5/25/2021 at 8:13 PM, Voidhunger said:

Maybe the round didnt penetrate and the damage mainly to the crew was done by armor spaling.

 

 

M26 Peshing was clearly penetrated to the machine gun port by the 88.

Ok it was from 100 yards, but I think even not penetrating direct hit to the machine gun/optics will ruin the day for the man behind.

I know that picture of that tiger with the multiple 122mm hits and I think that the crew was very lucky to survive.

I remember Walter Lau report (gunner from Helmut Wendorffs tiger) in which he wrote he almost lost an eye when he fell on the monocular sight, when the Tiger was hit.

 

but some randomness to damage model would be nice when the vision slot/gun optics, machine gun is hit.

Right now every hit to the vision slot/gun optics, machine gun means exploded tank, which is nonsence.

 

Panther hit directly to the gunner optics by 76mm.

 

 

 

 

This actual case is i think not the optics, but the shot bouncing downwords into the thin roof- the famous panther turret shot trap. In later models of the panther the shape of mantle / front turret was changed to eliminate it.

[[F.Circus]sith1144]

On 5/24/2021 at 11:46 PM, NoelGallagher said:

 

 

LOL it happened in reality 

 

here's a picture of tiger got hit at the gunner's optic area 

 

the shell didn't penetrate through and this tank managed to get back to HQ

That's a later tiger that literally has reinforced armour around the gunner optics to prevent such a thing, you can tell from the slope towards the gun. The tiger we have in game is an early model with a notable weak spot there.

 

Edited June 14, 2021 by [F.Circus]sith1144
Added a picture of my own

[[F.Circus]MoerasGrizzly]

On 5/27/2021 at 9:23 PM, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

Cant remember if the german tanks used direct optics or if they were mirrored: direct: the sight and optics is just straight on and if a shell hits there, part of explosion and shrapnel would go through the hole and the optics and inside the tank like they do inw arthunder and world of tanks, or if its mirrored, then only the optics will be damaged but no damage to the tank itself.

For fun: american tanks only faced 3 tigers in total from D-day to the defeate of germany, and some myths about shermans not having good armour:

 

Notable that most myths wrt WW2 nazi equipment are due to during-ww2 and post-ww2 nazi propaganda. The SS Panzer commander Witmann's (no offense to JG1_Wittmann in this thread, your name just reminded me of the SSer) abilities, for instance, are massively overstated. In 1943, the Tiger was a highly advanced tank, but German documents note that in 1944, the Tiger simply wasn't as good anymore. This is reflected in Wittman's military career: After scoring a lot of successes on the eastern front, he died pretty quickly on the western front thanks to the Shermans.
(though, ofc, it should be noted that successes are relative since the Waffen-SS was simply not performing as well as the Heer in 1943 and they needed propaganda to make up for it - this is in general the issue with anything other then a model/calculation driven approach in WW2, since even testimonials from the people involved in the war are not fully reliable, often trying to save face after a loss, even beyond the general issues with eyewitness accounts just not being that reliable at the best of times).

 

This goes hand in hand with the need to reinstate the German military after WW2 in order to face the cold war too. A lot of our perception the nazi war machine is highly influenced by post-war politics rather then what happened at the time.

Edited June 14, 2021 by [F.Circus]MoerasGrizzly

[LachenKrieg]

@[F.Circus]MoerasGrizzly, regarding myths, I am wondering if you aren't contributing to them yourself. Can you tell me they shell type and the gun that fired the shot into the Tigers mantlet? Because it is not a 76mm bore hole from a Sherman, which is what this thread is about.

 

By 1944, the allied response to the Tiger required that it be updated itself, hence the Tiger II with its sloped front. The reason M. Whittmann died on the Western front was for reasons that stretch well beyond the importance of any specific tank. And again, a Sherman did not knock his tank out frontally, it was a side shot that hit ammo storage.

 

This thread is about a Sherman hitting the front of a Tiger tank from a long distance, and penetrating it where it has no chance to.

[[F.Circus]MoerasGrizzly]

17 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

regarding myths, I am wondering if you aren't contributing to them yourself. Can you tell me they shell type and the gun that fired the shot into the Tigers mantlet? Because it is not a 76mm bore hole from a Sherman, which is what this thread is about.

 

Considering I didn't post the picture and you seem to appear to know that it is not a 76mm bore hole from a sherman, you know more about that picture then me - Can you tell me what hole it is?

[LachenKrieg]

On 5/25/2021 at 2:13 PM, Voidhunger said:

Maybe the round didnt penetrate and the damage mainly to the crew was done by armor spaling.

 

 

M26 Peshing was clearly penetrated to the machine gun port by the 88.

Ok it was from 100 yards, but I think even not penetrating direct hit to the machine gun/optics will ruin the day for the man behind.

I know that picture of that tiger with the multiple 122mm hits and I think that the crew was very lucky to survive.

I remember Walter Lau report (gunner from Helmut Wendorffs tiger) in which he wrote he almost lost an eye when he fell on the monocular sight, when the Tiger was hit.

 

but some randomness to damage model would be nice when the vision slot/gun optics, machine gun is hit.

Right now every hit to the vision slot/gun optics, machine gun means exploded tank, which is nonsence.

 

Panther hit directly to the gunner optics by 76mm.

 

 

 

 

This post is so good that I had to quote it again because it provides the best rationale to include post damage analysis in the model. Then the player could better understand that the crew/equipment was injured/damaged by spalling, the tank was penetrated by this shell at this angle through this armor....

 

This is very important for a SIM, because it would help teach things like how to position your armor, and weak spots on the tank your in. It would be great if they could resolve what ever the issue is online, and make Tank Crew into a real WWII armor simulator capable of actually training virtual tank crews.

 

The IL2 team has done an amazing job in such a short period of time, and the hope is they keep going in that direction.

[[F.Circus]MoerasGrizzly]

Reverse image searching what Sith has posted indicates that the picture with the optic penetration is Tiger 423, killed near Kharkov, February 1943. Notable that the bodies of the gunner and radioman are there, covered up. It's more or less exactly what happened to Gallagher's tank.

 

Can't say what shot took it out, but whatever was available to the soviets in february 1943.

 

I'm gonna throw on simple logic here and say that if it wasn't a problem on the Tiger I, it wouldn't have been reinforced in later models

Edited June 14, 2021 by [F.Circus]MoerasGrizzly

[LachenKrieg]

From the center of the Tiger's gun bore, it was 845mm to the right edge of the mantlet when you are viewing the tank from the front. Comparing the size of the hole in the mantlet to the dimensions of the mantlet itself, my guess is it is about 120mm. And sorry I only realized that you were not the person who posted the pic until now. But the point is, a Sherman didn't make that penetration.

Edited June 14, 2021 by LachenKrieg

[[F.Circus]MoerasGrizzly]

1 minute ago, LachenKrieg said:

From the center of the Tiger's gun bore, it was 845mm to the edge of the mantlet. Comparing the size of the hole in the mantlet to the dimensions of the mantlet itself, my guess is it is about 120mm. And sorry I only realized that you were not the person who posted the pic until now. But the point is, a Sherman didn't make that penetration.

 

What soviet equipment had 120mm guns in February 1943?

[Irishratticus72]

9 minutes ago, [F.Circus]MoerasGrizzly said:

 

What soviet equipment had 120mm guns in February 1943?

They started cranking out SU122s in December of '42. 

[[F.Circus]sith1144]

measure better. The mantlet is 450mm tall, making the hole 22/130*450=76.1mm across. Accounting for measurement inaccuracy and considering the most common soviet cannon, is probably the 76.2x385. Which in both its field gun and tank mounts has less penetration at 1000m than the sherman 75. 

Edited June 14, 2021 by [F.Circus]sith1144

[[F.Circus]MoerasGrizzly]

39 minutes ago, Irishratticus72 said:

They started cranking out SU122s in December of '42. 

that thing fired HE though

[LachenKrieg]

22 minutes ago, [F.Circus]sith1144 said:

measure better. The mantlet is 450mm tall, making the hole 22/130*450=76.1mm across. Accounting for measurement inaccuracy and considering the most common soviet cannon, is probably the 76.2x385. Which in both its field gun and tank mounts has less penetration at 1000m than the sherman 75. 

So does PX = pixel?

[[F.Circus]sith1144]

Just now, LachenKrieg said:

So does PX = pixel?

yes.

[LachenKrieg]

Well then check your math because I think you are dealing with a units issue.

[[F.Circus]sith1144]

the math is right in the post. Show me where its wrong?

[F.Circusxthetenth]

The most likely mistake, by far, has to do with you using the length from the bore, which is not visible in the picture and is thus a guess, rather than using measurements where both sides are defined by a clearly visible point in the picture. Past that it's a silly easy pair of ratios.

 

Also, I independently did the same technique and apart from thinking the mantlet is 129mm high my figures agree with sith's.

Edited June 14, 2021 by xthetenth

[Irishratticus72]

16 minutes ago, [F.Circus]MoerasGrizzly said:

that thing fired HE though

Until May of '43, you are correct, even then, the HEAT was marginally more useful. 

[LachenKrieg]

Pixel (X) to Millimeter Conversion Table · 1 pixel (X), 0.2645833333 mm

[[F.Circus]sith1144]

Im not converting pixels to millimeter. There is no regular way to convert that as it depends on pixel density, which is variable. I calculated the size of the hole as a percentage of the size of the mantlet (22/130) and then multiplied that percentage with the known size of the mantlet (450mm) resulting in 76.154mm

[F.Circusxthetenth]

On 5/25/2021 at 11:55 AM, NoelGallagher said:

i did some research and the conclusion is it shouldn't happen anyway

 

unless the size of the incoming shell fit within the size of the optic 

 

also the angle of the incoming shell is directly aligned (perfect 90 degree) with where the gun optic is 

 

since the sherman fire the shot from 1km distance with more than 30 degree angle

 

it's utterly rediculous 

 

I missed this incidentally. How in the world are you getting a thirty degree angle on sherman shells from 1 km out?

1 minute ago, LachenKrieg said:

Pixel (X) to Millimeter Conversion Table · 1 pixel (X), 0.2645833333 mm

 

I'm sorry, what?

 

Did you just use the typographic measurement of a pixel based on a 96 DPI screen and assume that the pixels on an arbitrary image map perfectly to a screen standard half a century from being invented when the picture was taken in its original form and likely a decade out of date when the image was digitized?

 

In a picture, the pixels are an angular measurement, that's it. No more, no less. You find the length of the arc that a known distance covers and how many pixels it is. That gives you the conversion between pixel distances (angle measurements) and linear distances in that plane in that particular image. In the case of this tiger's mantlet, it's 450mm / 130 px = 3.461... mm/px. Then you measure the thing you want to measure, in this case 22 px. It's ???? mm, but you know that ???? mm / 22 px = 3.461... mm/px. So multiply both sides by 22 px and you get 76.153... mm.