Developer Diary 281 - Discussion

[FlyingNutcase]

Looking really nice and a notably vibrant post. What, we ponder, is in the offing next week?!

[Guest deleted@83466]

I was under the impression that Allies had almost complete tactical air supremacy in Western Europe from mid 1944 onwards.  How were planes like the Ju-88c6 used on the western front during daylight hours in the 1944 to 1945 timeframe?  Interception of strategic bombers? Or were they making nuisance ground attacks during the daytime? 

Edited May 21, 2021 by SeaSerpent

[Avimimus]

2 hours ago, =FEW=Hauggy said:

Noice!

I hope the announcement will finally bring I-153 related news. ?

 

Ah... an IAR-81 (as an opponent for it)  We can dream. Although I do feel pretty satisfied when it comes to dreams at the moment.

 

1 hour ago, Hartigan said:

The upcoming announcement must somehow be related to a hidden map of Karelia. ? It can already be found in mission builder...for a reason

 

3rd party map? Interesting possibility... or winter war? But surely - they can't develop two major modules simultaneously

 

 

1 hour ago, SeaSerpent said:

I was under the impression that Allies had almost complete tactical air supremacy from mid 1944 onwards.  How were planes like the Ju-88c6 used on the western front during daylight hours in the 1944 to 1945 timeframe?  Interception of strategic bombers? Or were they making nuisance ground attacks during the daytime? 

 

Night operations or over blue-water (where single seat fighters wouldn't be encountered)... even the Bf-110 ceases daytime interceptions after April 9th 1944. The Ju-88C will be useful for night time intruder work, train busting, and daylight operations in 1942-1943 though!

 

As well as some naval operations (although we could do with a Wellington or a Beaufighter or something similar to give it an opponent which is slow enough to catch - I think the U-2VS and the C-47/Lisunov Li-2 are the only aircraft slow enough currently - maybe the Ju-87, Hs-129, and Ju-52 if one wants to switch sides).

Edited May 21, 2021 by Avimimus

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

7 hours ago, Barnacles said:

Wow!

Firstly great to see you've included the special rocket sight with I assume the ability to operate it historically by depressing the reticule 5 degrees!

Your attention to detail is admirable and one of the great things about this game!

Secondly, seeing a 15" gun firing brings back memories of battleships in the old IL2. Definitely keeping the spirit of '46 alive!

Just one thing, you mention the 250 and 500lb bombs. At some point the Typhoon was cleared for 1000lb IIRC


  

Yes, the Typhoon started using 1000lb bombs without being officially cleared to do so, and that resulted in a funny official letter exhange that went something along the lines of "oh we didn't know the 1000lb bombs weren't cleared for the plane, should tell all the Germans we bombed with them in the past weeks to give them back".



 

Edited May 21, 2021 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

[Haza]

With the video of the gun, perhaps a SturmTiger will be next?

 

Regards

[DBFlyguy]

That Tiffy is looking GOOD!!!

[357th_KW]

35 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

I was under the impression that Allies had almost complete tactical air supremacy in Western Europe from mid 1944 onwards.  How were planes like the Ju-88c6 used on the western front during daylight hours in the 1944 to 1945 timeframe?  Interception of strategic bombers? Or were they making nuisance ground attacks during the daytime? 

ZG1’s C6’s were employed in the maritime role supporting submarine operations over the Bay of Biscay.  The luftwaffe was so desperate that they deployed them to Normandy and used them as ground attackers.  This went predictably poorly and the units were rapidly converted to single engine fighters or disbanded.

[=PCM=Newtz]

By looking at the Tiffy shots more closely i noticed something: The guns aren’t showing any muzzle flash while firing. Is that a sneakpeak of new gunfire effects or is it only a part of the aircraft that is not finished yet?

[=621=Samikatz]

Does anyone have any good information on operating this thing?

 

It looks like a depression dial for dive bombing, and I'm wondering if anyone has any charts or guides for using it, if so

[Avimimus]

17 minutes ago, VBF-12_KW said:

ZG1’s C6’s were employed in the maritime role supporting submarine operations over the Bay of Biscay.  The luftwaffe was so desperate that they deployed them to Normandy and used them as ground attackers.  This went predictably poorly and the units were rapidly converted to single engine fighters or disbanded.

 

Was that during the daytime or at night?

 

1 hour ago, SeaSerpent said:

I was under the impression that Allies had almost complete tactical air supremacy from mid 1944 onwards.  How were planes like the Ju-88c6 used on the western front during daylight hours in the 1944 to 1945 timeframe?  Interception of strategic bombers? Or were they making nuisance ground attacks during the daytime? 

 

Even the Bf-110 stopped flying daylight interceptions after April 9th 1944... and the Ju-88 would be even more vulnerable. As for ground-attack - allied air-superiority during Normandy made it exceptionally hard for the Fw-190 units to actually get to their targets...

 

So mainly night time intruder missions, blue-water operations (outside the range of single seat fighters). The Ju-88C will still be useful for daytime operations in 1942-1943 (e.g. train busting, attacking small ships).

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, SeaSerpent said:

I was under the impression that Allies had almost complete tactical air supremacy in Western Europe from mid 1944 onwards.  How were planes like the Ju-88c6 used on the western front during daylight hours in the 1944 to 1945 timeframe?  Interception of strategic bombers? Or were they making nuisance ground attacks during the daytime? 

 

This page gives a good overview: http://www.ghostbombers.com/Bongart/ZG1_a.html

[pilotpierre]

Another eggs celent DD, donkey Shane & mercury bow coops.

[Lofte]

33 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

This page gives a good overview: http://www.ghostbombers.com/Bongart/ZG1_a.html

In other words, C-6 is have to become a suicider
Really sad that devs don't want to go in night things.

Ju-88S (S-1 for example) would be perfect for this and much interesting for players than C-6..

[SYN_Luftwaffles]

"New additions to the series"

Awwww man, I gotta buy something else?!

How much we talking so I can save up ?

[FeuerFliegen]

49 minutes ago, Lofte said:

Really sad that devs don't want to go in night things.

 

I absolutely love the few nighttime missions I've played on BoX. 

 

One of the biggest impressions was left on me when I first got the sim; one of the first missions I tried was an IL-2 night strike mission.  Once the spotlights came on and lit my cockpit up to complete brightness, I was in awe and had never experienced any flight sim to that level of immersion.  I want more experiences like that.

[von_Tom]

2 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

Yes, the Typhoon started using 1000lb bombs without being officially cleared to do so, and that resulted in a funny official letter exhange that went something along the lines of "oh we didn't know the 1000lb bombs weren't cleared for the plane, should tell all the Germans we bombed with them in the past weeks to give them back".



 

 

von Tom

[357th_KW]

2 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

Was that during the daytime or at night?

 

Daylight.  There are some claims for them in the RAF records from Spitfire squadrons on June 6th and 7th.  Likewise the Luftwaffe threw some Ju87s against the invasion during daylight on the 6th (I believe these were from some sort of training unit).  They ran afoul of 8th AF Mustangs and never got near the Allied forces.

[Avimimus]

1 hour ago, Lofte said:

Really sad that devs don't want to go in night things.

 

The sad reality is more that it requires modelling a variety of avionics/radar and that there is no certainty that sales would cover the costs.

 

There are some possible solutions - the avionics could be simplified somewhat if the radar operator position isn't modelled (and the pilot is just vectored to the target by another crew-member or ground control). One could also gradually add night-fighter variants with most of the night aircraft being AI versions of existing aircraft (Mosquito FB.VI with serrat... Bf-110G4, Ju-88C, even some Fw-190 variants...) so there might be an incremental pathway if the audience increases significantly in the coming years... but it seems unlikely.

 

I do believe Jason though when he says he (and presumably the devs generally) would model night fighting operations if the market was sufficient to justify the resources (which it doesn't seem to be anyway). So, I think you're mistaken.

 

38 minutes ago, VBF-12_KW said:

Daylight.  There are some claims for them in the RAF records from Spitfire squadrons on June 6th and 7th.  Likewise the Luftwaffe threw some Ju87s against the invasion during daylight on the 6th (I believe these were from some sort of training unit).  They ran afoul of 8th AF Mustangs and never got near the Allied forces.

 

Fascinating! Thank you!

 

47 minutes ago, von_Tom said:

 

von Tom

 

That... is hilarious! ? ?

 

Warrants them adding it as a field mod I think ? 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Avimimus

[ilmavoimat]

The Tiffie looks fantastic!! I'm still waving my plastic for a flyable C-47, can't have Overlord without it!!?

[Cleo9]

11 hours ago, I./ZG1_Dutchvdm said:

Nice! Will be Typhoon be flyable during the Bodenplatte career?

 

Grt M

 I certainly hope so. I assume it will be the case

[=NTAC=Professor_Fate]

Jason, you guys ROCK! Thanks for the update, I can't wait for the next release! It's like Christmas when a new plane/map/upgrade is released.

[Indigene]

Again thank you for the hard work! IL-2 kicks butt!?

Edited May 22, 2021 by Indigene

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

2 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

The sad reality is more that it requires modelling a variety of avionics/radar and that there is no certainty that sales would cover the costs.

 

There are some possible solutions - the avionics could be simplified somewhat if the radar operator position isn't modelled (and the pilot is just vectored to the target by another crew-member or ground control). One could also gradually add night-fighter variants with most of the night aircraft being AI versions of existing aircraft (Mosquito FB.VI with serrat... Bf-110G4, Ju-88C, even some Fw-190 variants...) so there might be an incremental pathway if the audience increases significantly in the coming years... but it seems unlikely.

 

I do believe Jason though when he says he (and presumably the devs generally) would model night fighting operations if the market was sufficient to justify the resources (which it doesn't seem to be anyway). So, I think you're mistaken.

 

 

Fascinating! Thank you!

 

 

That... is hilarious! ? ?

 

Warrants them adding it as a field mod I think ? 

That's hilarious! and "Healy" actually signed it! lol.

[Luger1969]

?Great stuff here comes the Typhoon!! Sharkmouth.. btw the upcoming news...my shot...Sopwith Snipe or something abt tanks.....

[willeverton]

Hoping the announcement next week is the advanced QMB.......

 

That typhoon will be a blast to fly!! Good work as ever?

[Retnek]

•  

Looking at the Ju88C I very much hope we get options to choose models lay-out according to the date of the scenario. The pictures shown present the old style 3 x 20 mm MG-FF. This cannon-layout was outdated for the planes used 1944 in the West. It was replaced by 3 x 20 mm MG 151/20.

(please look at
https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/61074-anyone-gonna-fly-the-ju88c6-in-mp/?tab=comments#comment-929308
https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/61074-anyone-gonna-fly-the-ju88c6-in-mp/?tab=comments#comment-929988)

[Juri_JS]

20 minutes ago, Retnek said:

•  

Looking at the Ju88C I very much hope we get options to choose models lay-out according to the date of the scenario. The pictures shown present the old style 3 x 20 mm MG-FF. This cannon-layout was outdated for the planes used 1944 in the West. It was replaced by 3 x 20 mm MG 151/20.

(please look at
https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/61074-anyone-gonna-fly-the-ju88c6-in-mp/?tab=comments#comment-929308
https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/61074-anyone-gonna-fly-the-ju88c6-in-mp/?tab=comments#comment-929988)

A while ago I had tried to research this topic too, but without much success. Do you know when the change from the MG FF to the MG 151/20 happened?

[Asgar]

Please let next weeks announcement be Tank Crew 2 ?

[Heliopause]

[senseispcc]

At the time the Tempest entered service all Typhoon squadrons were ground support ones. There where Typhoons and Tempests on the same airfields but never in the same units. 

But pilots, like Closterman (once), did fly on Typhoons and Tempests but never in the same unit.

I thank personally the creators of this series of games for this great addition, the Typhoon and Tempest to this game. Merci!

Great game with I hope a great future.

[Bodenplatte]

Well done to Jason and the team.

 

All new content is welcome news, the game keeps getting better and better.

[Rokychuchi]

In "The Big Show" Clostermann's Tempests were promised few times a dedicated flak busting Typhoons squadron's support for almost suicidal strafing attacks (because of a deadly german airbase's late war flak defences). In a book there was always a last minute cancelation accompanied with the "Ups, sorry, Typhoons urgently needed elsewhere, best wishes, good luck!" radio message, but in theory tempest and typhoon squadrons would cooperate this way.

 

Excellent DD, really looking forward!

[danielprates]

22 hours ago, ChicagoChad said:

Any scuttlebutt on what the new announcement might be next week?

 

Pacific still an option?

 

Ahh...  new member. Sorry my friend that won't be it.

 

I have my bets on a less unlikelly announcement: flyable 'something'. Maybe the c47.

[Cybermat47]

1 minute ago, danielprates said:

Maybe the c47.

Yes, I will be flyable in the next update.

[Retnek]

2 hours ago, Juri_JS said:

A while ago I had tried to research this topic too, but without much success. Do you know when the change from the MG FF to the MG 151/20 happened?

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/61074-anyone-gonna-fly-the-ju88c6-in-mp/?do=findComment&comment=929308

"For KG 40 over the Biscay see Chris Goss' "Bloody Biscay" (1997). Lot's of pictures show Ju-88 dayfighters with two forward 20-mm-cannons in the gondola. At least some are detailed enough to see it's MG-151/20.

But there's proof even better by Neitzel (1995), p.193. He pointed on the the limited firepower of the Ju-88 C and R over the Biscay, using 3 x 7.9 mm and 3 x 20 mm MG-FF. There was not enough punch to bring down the large planes used by the Coastal Command. To offer some advance in Juli 1943 the MG-FF were replaced by belt-fed and faster firing MG-151/20. "

In that thread
https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/61074-anyone-gonna-fly-the-ju88c6-in-mp/
I tried to cover some potentially important details for the Ju-88 C6 including some sources. Please feel free to ask further.

[Asgar]

16 minutes ago, Cybermat47 said:

Yes, I will be flyable in the next update.

i don't think i read anything about it being ready yet

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Asgar

[RNAS10_Oliver]

23 minutes ago, Asgar said:

i don't think i read anything about it being ready yet

 

 

Whoosh....

 

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Oliver88

[Lofte]

15 hours ago, Avimimus said:

The sad reality is more that it requires modelling a variety of avionics/radar and that there is no certainty that sales would cover the costs.

Not necessary. Сomplex night war combat systems are option of strategic bomb war.  BoX cant implement strategic bombers because of serious reasons (too expensive 4-engine models, huge distances, dificult development of all night systems etc.). So, on tactical level all we need to implement good night missions are only flare bombs and maybe some ground radio systems (but very simplified or even working in text mode). And also maybe little improovement of radiobeacon system.

At least for Eastern front it would be fully enough to do all kind of night missions.

 

Btw., just read (in "JUNKERS JU 88 KAMPFGESCHWADER ON THE RUSSIAN FRONT"), that C-6 were widely used in 1942-43 on Eastern front as train-busters in so called "Eis." (Eisenbahn) staffels in KGs 1, 3, 51, 76.

And even in antishipping operations over Black Sea. Will be good plane for Kuban.

 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Lofte

[Avimimus]

34 minutes ago, Lofte said:

Not necessary. Сomplex night war combat systems are option of strategic bomb war.  BoX cant implement strategic bombers because of serious reasons (too expensive 4-engine models, huge distances, dificult development of all night systems etc.).

 

I agree with you entirely.

 

With the one exception that I'm slightly more optimistic that it is technically possible for player flyable Nacht-jager units to be modelled for several reasons:

 

(1) Bomber command used lose formations to minimise risk of collisions, meaning that bombers could be spawned and despawned at a distance - thus keeping the total aircraft count low, even for a bomber raid of hundreds of aircraft.

 

(2) Bomber Command aircraft usually had between one and three gunner positions, meaning that a Lancaster requires about half the AI resources as a single He-111 does. Whereas the U.S. 8th airforce requires simultaneously modelling 50-72 gunners at a minimum... Bomber Command requires between 0 and 12 (Lancaster four ship).

 

(3) Luftwaffe aircrews were usually restricted to patrolling a single sector under ground control. As a result to this a smaller than average map area is required to model the Luftwaffe experience.

 

(4) The pilot usually didn't have access to the radar and radar homing systems. So the entire radar system could be modelled as part of one effort which would give the pilot access to vectoring from both a ground controller and from an on-board crew member (e.g. 4 radar and emission homing systems, and two ground control radars, with information delivered to the player verbally from the controllers). The exception would be the night landing systems (also required if we ever get a Do-217 or Ju-188) which the pilot had more direct access to.

 

So modelling an AI Lancaster (or Wellington), and an AI Mosquito variant (FB.VI with Serrat homing or B.IV) plus the Ground controllers (useful for other purposes) could allow the introduction of a Ju-88C6b or a Bf-110G4 etc. It is technically possible.

 

IMHO, the issue is more whether Americans or Russians would by it - or whether the market would be limited to people from Commonwealth countries of the older generation who new the vets/family histories and/or read books on the subject. That is the unknown and where the unlikelihood/implausibility comes from. The fact is that a lot of people just don't know how interesting this is (or even that Bomber Command dropped a similar tonnage of bombs to those dropped by the Americans)...

 

It'd probably be easier to release a pack of recon aircraft variants (with expanded camera simulation & campaigns) or artillery spotter aircraft (Fi-156, Grasshopper, U-2VS, Ar-196) with an ability to direct barrages...

 

I suppose the plausible pathway would be: (1) a massive growth in overall profitability of flight sims, (2) Development of radar ground controllers (likely for a Korean War or a contemporary Europe 1950-1955 module), (3) modelling an earlier theatre to give us an AI Wellington or engine refinements to allow heavy bombers (making it more likely that a Lancaster would be accepted). Then we might see a Ju-88Cb or a Bf-110G4... and maybe even a Mosquito variant (if people can get over the air-starts).

Edited May 22, 2021 by Avimimus

[Badger343rd]

hmmmm...as much as I expect the additional content to be ww2 assets(either TC2 or pacific theatre)... I would love it if iL-2 would move forward in era...Korea!!!

Flying panthers and sabers and migs ...yes please