Does anyone else thing the low speed handling in this game is a bit much? Especially going uphill.

[LColony_Kong]

This has been a problem for a long time, but Ive always felt there were other more pressing issues. The low speed control authority seems kinda nuts. The most noticeable problem this seems to cause is that when people are going straight up, or nearly so, they have gunnery-capable control authority even right up to the moment before they completely stall and fall out the sky. I have never had this experience in any other sim. Usually if someone is behind you 600-1000m below it becomes impractical to aim accurately below 110mph and virtually impossible of speeds around 80-60mph. But in il2 people seem to be able to hang on their prop at 65mph and snipe people above them more than 600m away. Ive seen accurate gunnery in those situations out to 1km.

 

That seems just a mite silly. Anyone else experience this?

[354thFG_Panda_]

This is a extremely common phenomenon and many people like to abuse it online.

 

An argument could be made that when they do that they are putting themselves in a horrible position where they can get shot down. On the other hand, when its more in a 1 vs 1 situation they get away with it.

 

This abuse of the FM coupled with spray and pray tactics (silly I know), they try to land a single cannon/heavy machine gun explosive hit to cripple your plane aerodynamically and more or less remove all combat effectiveness. Happens often to me in the p47 and p38 because they are big targets. (I see tempests always do it to my 109/190 too ?)

 

They do it because it works. In single player this is not much of a problem so I do not think its on a priority list to fix. The only advice that I can give to deal with it is not to make zooms steep and elongate them to get seperation after a boom. Also try and keep your distance on the planes known for doing it. It is always something to keep in mind when fighting online. A good thing to have is a wingman or a squad going so when someone tries to pull it off they are quickly shot down.

 

I too would like to see an investigation and look about whats going on the cause this phenomenon along with power on stalls and general flap behavior in these extreme situations. I understand this is very tricky to model since the situation is very dynamic. It can be quite immersion breaking when it happens 

Edited May 9, 2021 by theRedPanda

[sturmkraehe]

I too feel that some plane behavior is pretty of. I have played this sim from release of BoS but had a longer break and missed the release of the late war theatres and now getting back into it.

 

My judgement on FM: They had some wobble issues at early phase after release which stirred up the community but apart from that the FM looked and felt correct and plausible from the overall behavior. This judgement I cannot extend to the late war models now. There is a lot that feels off, from low speed handling to stall behavior, rudder efficiency, coupled aerodynamic effects and some wierd high speed effects (for instance the K4 gets extremely elevator-sensitive at higher speeds as far as I can tell from a few trials with that plane which makes it very difficult to control pitch-wise).

Edited May 9, 2021 by sturmkraehe

[Pict]

11 hours ago, LColony_Red_Comet said:

Ive always felt

 

24 minutes ago, sturmkraehe said:

I too feel that some plane behavior is pretty of

 

25 minutes ago, sturmkraehe said:

the FM looked and felt correct

 

25 minutes ago, sturmkraehe said:

There is a lot that feels off

 

 

I feel that you need more that what you've provided if you want the developer to take this seriously in any way. I may be wrong, after all it's just a feeling I have  

[sturmkraehe]

I expressed an opinion. That is what forums are for as far as I know: to express opinions. You can share it or not. You are free to let us know that you don't share it. You are also free to say that you want us to provide data.

 

It is petty however on your side to try to ridiculize my opinion but if it makes you feel better: go on.

 

Your comment is imho entirely futile as it is just an ad hominem attack. 

Edited May 9, 2021 by sturmkraehe

[Dakpilot]

42 minutes ago, sturmkraehe said:

for instance the K4 gets extremely elevator-sensitive at higher speeds as far as I can tell from a few trials with that plane which makes it very difficult to control pitch-wise).

 

Isn't this a well recognised flaw of the real A/C (control issues at high speed) 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

[Pict]

2 hours ago, sturmkraehe said:

I expressed an opinion...

 

I know, so did I, one that I even suggested may be incorrect. My intention was not the hurt anyone's feelings, but just to draw attention to the fact that I didn't see much depth in the point put across, in a lighthearted fashion.

 

I'm sorry if you find that demeaning.

 

===============

 

That said, my take on the issue is this; Just because the aircraft has stalled, doesn't automatically mean that all control authority is immediately and utterly lost.

 

This can be easily understood any time you start to taxi in an aircraft, or start your take off run. Some aircraft will have more rudder authority than others, but all will have some due to the prop wash. Same applies hanging on the prop at the apex of a hammer head stall turn.

 

Again I may well be wrong, but I just offered you more than a feeling...or 3

 

 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Unlike older Simulators, Il-2 actually models Propwash over the Elevators and Rudder and the Stall Speed Difference between Idle and Power on stall.

If you have ever watched an airshow with some spastic in a Pitts or Extra, all of these Low Speed Manouvers are performed using only Propwash.

 

Spoiler

 

 

[sturmkraehe]

I would not compare stall behavior of an Extra to the stall behavior of a SEP ww2 fighter. An Extra is designed to show off stalls while this is not part of bfm for a ww2 fighter while fighter designers surely attempted to obtain benign behavior.

 

BTW, as was posted in another thread the historic Spit has for instance a normal spin recovery while the spin recovery in this IL2 is not normal at all.

 

Normal spin recovery is and this I know as it is something I had to learn for my pilot license is to cut power to idle after entering stalling into a spin, applying rudder opposite to spin direction until spin stops and then carefully applying power while carefully leveling the aircraft (not too quick otherwise new stall). In IL2, and again according to the document excerpt posted in another thread, this is not correctly implemented. The in game spit 14 has a very strong spin component about its vertical axis so almost a flat spin in the initial phases. Only after a few spins it gets more into a normal spin with mostly longitunial and a bit of lateral component. The document excepts clearly describes a spin with longitudinal and lateral spin component but NEVER a spin component about vertical axis.

Edited May 9, 2021 by sturmkraehe

[[CPT]Crunch]

Each of these aircraft should have minimum air flow speeds over the flight controls limits on effectiveness, and usually each set of controls aren't exactly limited at the same speeds for any given aircraft.  Rudder should normally be the last control to lose effectiveness.  That's something we don't see, controls across the board are effective right up to the canned number, and that's whats allowing the pointing ability.

 

Now if you lost your ailerons effectiveness, you'd be struggling just to recover before you completely lost control, not using what limits are left to place an accurate shot. 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

10 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

Epis

Ingame, at least whenever I try, Rudder and Elevator Effectiveness are very closely linked to your Power Output and AoA. And as long as you actually Point your Nose vertically you can keep nearly every Fighter Prop Hanging until it reverses. Takes a bit of Training, but it works just grand.
Just takes the Basic Airmanship of knowing that you have no Roll Control via Ailerons at low Speed, so you have to use the Rudder.

The Spit Mk.IX and Mk.XIV can reverse quite happily for prolonged Periods that Way.

[sturmkraehe]

4 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Ingame, at least whenever I try, Rudder and Elevator Effectiveness are very closely linked to your Power Output and AoA. And as long as you actually Point your Nose vertically you can keep nearly every Fighter Prop Hanging until it reverses. Takes a bit of Training, but it works just grand.
Just takes the Basic Airmanship of knowing that you have no Roll Control via Ailerons at low Speed, so you have to use the Rudder.

The Spit Mk.IX and Mk.XIV can reverse quite happily for prolonged Periods that Way.

Of course prop flow will have some effects on rudder and elevator. I wonder however if in real life engine power is really so dominant in defining efficiency for this historic era.

 

I know that modern aerobatic aircraft have this ability but I am not so sure if this can be also said for the spitties and messies.

 

I know that Cessnas and Pipers don't have this effect but well, their power output is also less.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Of Course Cessnas and Pipers have "This Effect" and it is powerful enough to have fun even in them. Especially the Piper Super Cub has a Party Piece one of our FIs does as a Demonstration of Plane Control where he does Slow Taxi, Tail Up with only a bit of Throttle and Light Brake Application, using only Elevator and Rudder.

That's one of the Reason why in regular GA Flying you normally Approach at shallow angles, at Speeds 150% your Power Off Stall Speed, so that in Case you lose an Engine you Transition into the Glide without a lot Trim Change.

In Short Field Operations you change all that, Approaching much slower and at a steeper Angle. Your Approach Speed is just above Power On Stall Speed (On the Edge of the Stall Horn/Stall Indicator) and instead of using excess speed (which we don't have) to flare we use a dab of throttle for a Short Round out, using the Engine Power to Push the Tail Down and Energize the Inner Wing Section enough to get our Vertical Speed to about 1m/s at which Time we cut throttle, and the Aircraft Stalls and precisely Potatoes where we want it to touch down without any excess kinetic Energy to burn.

If the Engine Fails in one of these Approaches the Nose immediately Drops.

Edited May 10, 2021 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[sturmkraehe]

Ok, conceded. Of course they do have this effect but I doubt that I could lower the tail of our C172 or Pa28 just by revving up the engine (no tail dragger experience I have to admit). We are taught to remove lest on the front wheel as soon as possible by slightly pulling as soon as sufficient speed is obtained during start run.

 

But are you sure that what your FI does is not also a bit part due to the pull of the engine itself? By applying a bit of breaks will create a momentum about the contact point between wheel and ground. 

[Guest deleted@258843]

10 hours ago, sturmkraehe said:

but I doubt that I could lower the tail of our C172 or Pa28 just by revving up the engine (no tail dragger experience I have to admit).

 

You absolutely can.

 

Might depend on the specific model and loading, but you can tail strike if you hold full aft and add enough power without releasing back pressure in a 172 even if you're stationary.

 

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Kablamoman

[LColony_Kong]

On 5/9/2021 at 8:39 AM, Pict said:

all control authority is immediately and utterly lost.

Who said all? The problem is that they have enough control authority to shoot a target 1km away going straight up at or below the stall speed of the plane. I don't know of any other sims where this is possible, unless we consider war thunder a sim.

[sturmkraehe]

On a side note: Yesterday I got one shot at a distance of about 1.6 km. Online.

[gimpy117]

I'd say that there's some aircraft that are worse offenders than others, but yeah a lot of stuff right on the edge of stall feels really "nice" 

speaking of that I wonder if VSO is modelled too... 

[Guest deleted@258843]

I'd say the lack of appreciable torque is a big offender in letting the planes in the game prop hang as much as they do.

 

Elevator and rudder maintaining authority in the slipstream with power on is not unrealistic, but the ailerons (well outside of the prop slipstream) seem to maintain their authority even at some pretty silly slow speeds with high power settings.  I suspect that in real life with such a high power-to-weight ratio, at low speeds, high power settings (especially when power is rapidly applied) is really going to want to flip the aircraft on its back. The effect is miniscule in the game, and so there aren't any consequences to rapid power changes at low speed, and it's easy to aim in a prop hang at super low speed with a bit of rudder control when you should be spinning like a top.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Kablamoman

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

On 5/17/2021 at 2:18 AM, Kablamoman said:

I'd say the lack of appreciable torque is a big offender in letting the planes in the game prop hang as much as they do.

 

Torque is a Function of Power and Propeller Diameter. If we had Helicopters, that would be true, but we don't, we have 3m Props mostly which simply cannot put that much Torque into the Air, in rather fast Airplanes.

If such small Props could actually do that kind of Work, Helicopters wouldn't have such long Blades.

The Truth is that at low Speeds the Propellers simply start stirring in their own Wake, especially the 4 and 5 Bladed ones.

[Guest deleted@258843]

2 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Torque is a Function of Power and Propeller Diameter. If we had Helicopters, that would be true, but we don't, we have 3m Props mostly which simply cannot put that much Torque into the Air, in rather fast Airplanes.

If such small Props could actually do that kind of Work, Helicopters wouldn't have such long Blades.

The Truth is that at low Speeds the Propellers simply start stirring in their own Wake, especially the 4 and 5 Bladed ones.

 

 

Not talking about at high speed, so "rather fast airplanes" isn't really a consideration. I'm talking about when they're ballistic in a prop hang at high power settings. Torque should be enough to overcome the little air resistance generated by the wings about the longitudinal axis, should it not?

 

The effect is already there in the game, I just suspect it would be much more pronounced in reality. More akin to what's seen in "that other sim" where rapid changes in power have a much more pronounced effect at airspeeds close to the stall or below.

[ACG_Cass]

22 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

If such small Props could actually do that kind of Work, Helicopters wouldn't have such long Blades.

 

Helicopters literally need another mini-helicopter at the back pointing to the side to counter the torque. 

 

 

 

edit: - sorry @6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann. Didn't mean that to come across quite that sassy.

 

Torque is definitely under pronounced in the game, especially in the late war super props where you have enormous amounts of power. You get a little Yaw but almost no roll. Sure the propellers aren't massive when compared to the mass of the plane, but they have 2000hp+ engines spinning them at tremendous speed. You're going to notice that if you are slow and don't have enough airflow. 

 

This is without my rudder pedals plugged in and using a tiny bit of ailerons. There doesn't appear to be any difference in Torque between the F2 and the K4 (K4 first then F2). I even try dipping the wing heavily towards the torque while almost at stall speed in the 2800hp P47 and it was barely noticeable. Also actively tried to stall the K4 and SpitIX during the power shift but wasn't able to.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by ACG_Cass

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Well, this is how it works for me. Spinning Top and Stall Throttle Change. Pretty massive effect.

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[Bremspropeller]

On 5/10/2021 at 12:01 PM, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Just takes the Basic Airmanship of knowing that you have no Roll Control via Ailerons at low Speed, so you have to use the Rudder.

 

Ailerons don't care much about speed. They care about AoA.

 

It's more pronounced in highly swept wings for two reasons.

 

First, they're suseptable to dihedral effect.

Second, they have a flatter and wider CL over AoA curve, making you reach those higher AoAs in the first place.

 

 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

Ailerons don't care much about speed. They care about AoA.

Still, the Aileron Force is proportional to the Airspeed, otherwise I could do Barrel Rolls on the Taxi Way.

[Bremspropeller]

11 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Still, the Aileron Force is proportional to the Airspeed, otherwise I could do Barrel Rolls on the Taxi Way.

 

That is true, but it applies to all flight-control surfaces. It always helps to metally delete the engine and just think about gliders.

 

Also, if you're slow and at negative AoA, you might think twice about mixing in rudder.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

4 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

That is true, but it applies to all flight-control surfaces. It always helps to metally delete the engine and just think about gliders.

 

Also, if you're slow and at negative AoA, you might think twice about mixing in rudder.

In a Cable Break I usually don't attempt Aerobatics while my Passenger's Head slams into the Canopy.

[Bremspropeller]

18 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

In a Cable Break I usually don't attempt Aerobatics while my Passenger's Head slams into the Canopy.

 

That's why you strap them in properly.

 

On 5/18/2021 at 4:00 PM, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

The Truth is that at low Speeds the Propellers simply start stirring in their own Wake, especially the 4 and 5 Bladed ones.

 

Yeah, no.

Props will always produce significant influx across the disc area. At slow speeds, that induces a loss of local blade AoA, which impinges thrust a little.

 

@I./ZG1_HeTzeR might tell you a little story about how six blades at 1020RPM "stirr their own wakes" on take-off...

[I./ZG1_HeTzeR]

I can but I wont ?

 

[LColony_Kong]

Torque isnt the problem here. Its the authority of the control surfaces when very very slow, say under 80mph.

[gimpy117]

1 hour ago, LColony_Red_Comet said:

Torque isnt the problem here. Its the authority of the control surfaces when very very slow, say under 80mph.

i mean yeah look at the elevator authority of the K4 coupled with...whatever UFO tech allowed that kind of AoA at that speed 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

4 hours ago, gimpy117 said:

i mean yeah look at the elevator authority of the K4 coupled with...whatever UFO tech allowed that kind of AoA at that speed 

80mph isn't slow. Just take that our Bf109 has roughly the same elevator and Rudder that the Bf108 had, a Plane that compares to a Cessna 182 or a Pa-28.

All of these Planes have Control Surfaces that are made to come alive at 25mph with 230hp Engines and a Gross Weight of less than 1500kg.

 

The K-4 is like a normal Bf109, but more Tailheavy due to the MW50 Installation, and the 109s already have adjustable Stabilizer Trim, that once in Tailheavy Trim Range will use the Propwash of 2000hp to essentially have Thrust Vectoring.

[unreasonable]

Non-technical non pilot thoughts here, so feel free to correct me: if you can change heading while taxiing with propwash using just the rudder I do not see why the same should not be possible in principle when in the air at low speeds.  Some for elevators: if they had no authority at low speeds why do you need to keep stick back in some planes while on the ground: why push forwards to unstick tail wheel on take off?

 

On ailerons, I recall RoF being suspect in this case but the current series not so bad.  Given that most aircraft can also roll with the rudder, they still could change direction to get a shot near the end of a vertical climb. Whether a real pilot would do such a thing in a real fight is another matter.  

[JtD]

Air and ground are different because the wheels on the ground add stability to the airframe. You don't flip over as easily as you can in the air.

 

However, there are remarkable videos showing some of these WW2 fighters in the air, doing amazing low speed manoeuvering (Ki-43, I-153 in particular come to mind). If you did this in a game, you'd say the FM is wrong...

 

That said, I still consider low speed handling somewhat fishy in BoX.

Edited May 20, 2021 by JtD

[ACG_Cass]

I get the prop wash argument, even though IMO I think it's a far too pronounced. But general control surface at low speed is largely to blame here it seems. 

 

I understand that the 109 is 3300kg and forces required to rotate it are pretty significant. I also understand there would be some resistance from the wings in terms of drag. 

 

But at the same time this is 2000hp going through a propeller and yet the ailerons are still effectively counteracting that rotation well below 100kmh. 

 

 

[gimpy117]

16 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

80mph isn't slow. Just take that our Bf109 has roughly the same elevator and Rudder that the Bf108 had, a Plane that compares to a Cessna 182 or a Pa-28.

All of these Planes have Control Surfaces that are made to come alive at 25mph with 230hp Engines and a Gross Weight of less than 1500kg.

coming alive and effective at low speeds are two different things. I don't think that kind of elevator authority and ability to snot stall with that kind of AoA at 80mph is suspect. 

[[CPT]Crunch]

I've seen experienced pilots damn near panic when they raised gear and banked aggressive before the wheels slowed spinning and settled into the wells.  Nose gear spin will cause a violent shudder in a C-130 cockpit, shake the entire deck and make it feel as if the plane is coming apart, some pilots didn't seem to like it, especially unexpected.?

 

So its not simply all a power on thrust based torque issue, there's still a mass with that centrifugal force behind it.  At min control speeds and unstable angles those extra bladed props ain't going to appreciate any attempts to change their axial direction.  Your going to fight that force in order to get your nose shifted, thrust or not, it should be a bit of battle at VMC's.  Exactly why an engine out at VMC is a place you never ever want to be in a multi engine. 

[JG7_X-Man]

Guys - We are asking a lot from $80 video games and a pretty old flight model engine at that.

 

If you take this for what it really is - a game, I think we are pretty much getting our monies worth.

 

The real gem would be to merge X-Plane's FM engine, The old IL-2 number of aircraft and multiengine of aircraft it can handle online, the current IL-2 BG game graphics and fidelity. However, that would be expensive!

 

The fact the prop wash is modeled in X-plane is just amazing! However it's not 100% but better than anything else on the market.

 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by JG7_X-Man

[Nocke]

18 hours ago, ACG_Cass said:

I get the prop wash argument, even though IMO I think it's a far too pronounced. But general control surface at low speed is largely to blame here it seems. 

 

I understand that the 109 is 3300kg and forces required to rotate it are pretty significant. I also understand there would be some resistance from the wings in terms of drag. 

 

But at the same time this is 2000hp going through a propeller and yet the ailerons are still effectively counteracting that rotation well below 100kmh. 

 

 

How am I going to deduce anything meaningfull from a video in slow motion, apparently only showing the last part of a zoom climb? This seems to me very manipulative, insinuating something that is not really there, at least not to that degree.

[unreasonable]

Just now, 216th_Nocke said:

How am I going to deduce anything meaningfull from a video in slow motion, apparently only showing the last part of a zoom climb? This seems to me very manipulative, insinuating something that is not really there, at least not to that degree.

 

No different from almost all of the hundreds of other FM/DM videos posted on this and other sites over the years. People like to think they are engaged in empirical debate here, but anything involving videos is almost always rhetoric.  When scientists present findings, they do not do it on YT or in other video formats.