clickable cockpits, what's the appeal?

[SharpeXB]

23 hours ago, HR_Zunzun said:

Thansfully, there are technology that will overcome this. Hands tracking and feedback (when they achieve reliability) will solve it and then it will add a ton in inmmersion.

Yeah… in maybe 30 or 40 years ?

[Monksilver]

1 hour ago, Enceladus said:

If anyone wants to make a strong point about how clickable cockpits are totally useless, then destroy your mouse by running it over with your vehicle or with a ballpein hammer and then upload a video of how you were able to load up the game and a mission, career, campaign, and/or selecting a map, position on the map, which side, aircraft, modifications and weapons, etc. just by using the keyboard.

 

A common statement is that clickable cockpits are only useful for starting up the engine, once that's done it's rarely used; same goes for the mouse, the mouse is only useful for loading up the game and selecting what you want to do, after that it's rarely used.

Based on this common statement, the mouse is completely useless.

 

A scientist trained a dog to come to him when he says ' come here boy'. Every time he said this the dog would walk over from the far side of the room. The scientist then cut off the dog's back legs, he then called 'come here boy' and the dog still came to him even if a bit slower. The scientist then cut off the dog's front legs. After that no matter how often he called out 'come here boy' the dog stayed at the far side of the room and wouldn't come to the scientist. The scientist then published a paper showing how he had proved that dogs hear through their front legs.

 

I don't know why that story comes to mind now.

 

P.S. don't worry, it isn't a true story!

[DD_Arthur]

1 hour ago, Monksilver said:

P.S. don't worry, it isn't a true story!

 

I met a man who told me how he had visited a local farm and  been greeted by a three-legged pig.  

The man knocked on the door of the farmhouse but there was no answer, whereupon the pig jumped up on it’s one hind leg and rang a large bell with it’s snout.

The farmer promptly appeared at the door.

 

”Good afternoon” said the visitor. “That’s a remarkable animal you have there.”

 

”Oh, so he is sir” replied the farmer. “He’s saved my life before sir.”

 

”Really” replied the visitor “what happened?”

 

”We’ll sir, one stormy night I fell in the river yonder. I would have been swept away but this pig jumped in and dragged me out to safety.”

 

”Good lord” replied the visitor.

 

”And then there was the fire sir”

 

”The fire?”

 

”Yes sir. Farmhouse caught fire one night. We were all asleep when the pig woke us and dragged us to safety.”

 

”That’s astonishing! Tell me; why has it only got three legs?”

 

”Well sir” replied the farmer “when you’ve got a pig that good, you don’t want to eat him all at once.”

 

 

 

[spreckair]

I have a harder time understanding how clickpits add to immersion.  First, using a mouse is not at all immersive to me; how many WWII pilots used a mouse?  Second, even with VR gloves, if I cannot actually feel the switch or knob, I don't think it will be that immersive.  I think I would need a cockpit mock up with all of the necessary switches and knobs for the immersion to be meaningful, and then again one for each different plane.  How many rooms in my nonexistent mansion would that take up?  Just sayin...

[jonfog]

Well I'm for a clickable cockpit. In VR you cannot see the keyboard, you cannot have a paper or whatever beside showing you the commands.

A clickable cockpit would help, since you don't have remove your headset.

You could argue that u should map the buttons to a Hotas. Problem is for the rarely used commands, you don't remember where that button is. Also the setup doesn't help, in DCS u can press a button and it will jump to that command if the button is mapped. Also in DCS the controllers name is not "joy0..." but something that gives u an hint of which controller it is.

And the per plane assignment gives u the commands applicable to that aircraft. Now in IL2 the aircrafaft  are a lot more similar, but it would really help if you could apply a filter on a specific airplane so you only would see the commands that are valid for that aircraft.

 

But  a clickable cockpit would really help when you're trying out an unfamiliar aircraft, you really don't need to know or map any commands, just move the appropriate controller (tooltip helps).

 

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, jonfog said:

Problem is for the rarely used commands, you don't remember where that button is.

Just look at the Technochat, it will tell you what your controls are doing 

3 hours ago, jonfog said:

Well I'm for a clickable cockpit.

If you’ve read the rest of this thread and others you should realize this will never happen in GB

[Enceladus828]

6 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Just look at the Technochat

The Technochat is really annoying as it continuously says "First Engine Damaged" and stays on for an eternity, that's it; there's no detailed description like there is in CloD such as First Engine: Water Perforated, First Engine: Oil Gasket leak, etc.

 

And if clickable cockpits impedes the ability for Eagle Dynamics to release WW2 planes in a timely manner and clickable cockpits actually increases the prices of aircraft to $50 or more US, then why do they even bother making planes have clickable cockpits??

Also, if most people buy HOTASs with many buttons so you can Toggle the Gunsight dimmer, aileron, rudder, and elevator trim, Magnetos, Mixtures, Propeller levers, etc., etc, onto them then clickable cockpits would seem irrelevant in X-Plane and MSFS, but apparently the developers of those games find clickable cockpits to be necessary regardless.

[BraveSirRobin]

19 minutes ago, Enceladus said:

Also, if most people buy HOTASs with many buttons so you can Toggle the Gunsight dimmer, aileron, rudder, and elevator trim, Magnetos, Mixtures, Propeller levers, etc., etc, onto them then clickable cockpits would seem irrelevant in X-Plane and MSFS, but apparently the developers of those games find clickable cockpits to be necessary regardless.

I have assigned all the buttons that I use regularly to controllers.  I don't need a clickable cockpit for anything.  If you're unable to do that, go play X-Plane.  Sounds like their design philosophy is more to your liking.

[Enceladus828]

16 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

I don't need a clickable cockpit for anything.  If you're unable to do that, go play X-Plane.

Or DCS, MSFS 2020, IL-2 Dover series, etc.

 

But I'm still going to play IL-2 GBs, CloD, IL-2 1946, etc.

Edited September 24, 2021 by Enceladus

[BraveSirRobin]

Just now, Enceladus said:

Or DCS, MSFS 2020, IL-2 Dover series, etc.

Ok, go play one of those.

[Lusekofte]

I am not against click pits. Because you can choose if you use it or not. But a already under manned staff. It would not be possible.

And it is not needed. What I rather would have. Is a setup for each plane. I like to use my trim wheel regardless if it was operated historical with electric switch. I want to choose between historical or what hardware I got. Many things could be done to prevent so many different key bindings.

But why waste energy on this? It won't happen regardless

[BraveSirRobin]

3 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

I am not against click pits. Because you can choose if you use it or not. But a already under manned staff. It would not be possible.

And it is not needed. What I rather would have. Is a setup for each plane. I like to use my trim wheel regardless if it was operated historical with electric switch. I want to choose between historical or what hardware I got. Many things could be done to prevent so many different key bindings.

But why waste energy on this? It won't happen regardless

We had that in Rise of flight. I don't understand why they got rid of it.

[Lusekofte]

50 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

We had that in Rise of flight. I don't understand why they got rid of it.

Neither do I . Control interfaces in this is a bloody mess. And it get worser

[jonfog]

Well maybe it's not coming, but VR is. And thus we have the problem of "were did I map this command?". 

[SharpeXB]

6 hours ago, jonfog said:

And thus we have the problem of "were did I map this command?"

Again, if you want to know what your button assignments are, just look at the Technochat. A clickable cockpit isn’t needed for that purpose. 

6 hours ago, jonfog said:

Well maybe it's not coming, but VR is.

That’s not a certain thing but really the way IL-2 GB works it seems easier to use in VR than constantly reaching for a mouse.

[jonfog]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Again, if you want to know what your button assignments are, just look at the Technochat. A clickable cockpit isn’t needed for that purpose. 

That’s not a certain thing but really the way IL-2 GB works it seems easier to use in VR than constantly reaching for a mouse.

Hm, were's boost toogle? Click, click, click ... Engine on/off!!

Some buttons you don't wan't to press searching for the correct one.

On my throttle I have 62 buttons, joystick 19 and the Honeycomb Throttle 48. That's a lot of buttons to try and most of them aren't used.

It's just that compared to DCS you need to map a lot of commands to your Hotas setup, and then remember them.

[SharpeXB]

21 minutes ago, jonfog said:

Hm, were's boost toogle? Click, click, click ... Engine on/off!!

Some buttons you don't wan't to press searching for the correct one.

On my throttle I have 62 buttons, joystick 19 and the Honeycomb Throttle 48. That's a lot of buttons to try and most of them aren't used.

It's just that compared to DCS you need to map a lot of commands to your Hotas setup, and then remember them.

Sure the control mapping menu could be improved in this regard. But that really doesn’t have anything to do with clickable cockpits. Being away from any game for a long while is going to involve a bit of relearning. GB is no different. The big difference between this game and DCS is that there’s only one mapping scheme to remember. So it’s not that difficult. 

[Enceladus828]

@SharpeXB may I suggest that you do this:

 

 

[jonfog]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Sure the control mapping menu could be improved in this regard. But that really doesn’t have anything to do with clickable cockpits. Being away from any game for a long while is going to involve a bit of relearning. GB is no different. The big difference between this game and DCS is that there’s only one mapping scheme to remember. So it’s not that difficult. 

Yeah I agree that if you stick to one sim it's easier, but the clickable cockpits are a bonus  since you don't have to remember so much, just click, flick or scroll the appropriate cockpit item. But apparently that's not going to happen...

[SharpeXB]

5 minutes ago, jonfog said:

Yeah I agree that if you stick to one sim it's easier, but the clickable cockpits are a bonus  since you don't have to remember so much, just click, flick or scroll the appropriate cockpit item. But apparently that's not going to happen...

The clickable cockpits are indeed essential for the more complex modern aircraft. But for WWII era planes they’re mostly just used for startup. 
And yeah, it’s just not ever going to happen in GB and not needed here, so not worth going on and on about. 

[Enceladus828]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

But for WWII era planes they’re mostly just used for startup. 

Well then, I guess real-world flight sims like MSFS 2020 and X-Plane should discontinue adding 1930s planes (with no-Garmin cockpits) and WW2 planes because of that.

[BraveSirRobin]

34 minutes ago, Enceladus said:

Well then, I guess real-world flight sims like MSFS 2020 and X-Plane should discontinue adding 1930s planes (with no-Garmin cockpits) and WW2 planes because of that.

that isn’t how this works.  Once you’ve made the design decision to include clickpits, you really have no choice but to include them for every aircraft.  Even those that don’t really need them.  This isn’t something that I should have to explain to you, but here we are.

[Enceladus828]

15 hours ago, Enceladus said:

Well then, I guess real-world flight sims like MSFS 2020 and X-Plane should discontinue adding 1930s planes (with no-Garmin cockpits) and WW2 planes because of that.

 

14 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

that isn’t how this works.  Once you’ve made the design decision to include clickpits, you really have no choice but to include them for every aircraft.  Even those that don’t really need them.  This isn’t something that I should have to explain to you, but here we are.

No, what I'm saying is that MSFS 2020 and X-Plane should not include 1930s and WW2 planes, period.

[BraveSirRobin]

1 hour ago, Enceladus said:

 

No, what I'm saying is that MSFS 2020 and X-Plane should not include 1930s and WW2 planes, period.

 

That sounds like a really stupid idea. Why don't you go to their form and ask them what they think of it?

[Enceladus828]

12 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

That sounds like a really stupid idea. Why don't you go to their form and ask them what they think of it?

If SharpeXB is correct that clickable cockpits are mainly used for startup in WW2 era planes, so not worth it and only worth it for modern planes, then thus, it’s pointless for WW2 era planes to be added to MSFS 2020 and X-Plane.

 

That’s all I’m saying.

[BraveSirRobin]

14 minutes ago, Enceladus said:

If SharpeXB is correct that clickable cockpits are mainly used for startup in WW2 era planes, so not worth it and only worth it for modern planes, then thus, it’s pointless for WW2 era planes to be added to MSFS 2020 and X-Plane.

 

That’s all I’m saying.

As I explained earlier, once you have click pits you need to use them for everything.

 

How could you possibly think it makes sense to leave out pre-World War II aircraft from those games?

[Hoss]

"LMAO, What was it Rodney Dangerfield used to say? Not the "take my wife please" ...... oh yeah, "I get no respect".... 

A little less snark, and a bit more respect for people would be great. Didn't our parents tell us if you can't say anything nice keep your mouth shut..... or something along those lines. NPD is pretty prevalent on here..... 

 

Well, cheers....

Hoss

[BraveSirRobin]

3 hours ago, Enceladus said:

If SharpeXB is correct that clickable cockpits are mainly used for startup in WW2 era planes, so not worth it and only worth it for modern planes, then thus, it’s pointless for WW2 era planes to be added to MSFS 2020 and X-Plane.

 

That’s all I’m saying.

I suppose in an alternate universe where all flight sim development decisions are linked to whether a click-pit is necessary, and absolutely nothing else matters, then this does make sense.  But it’s unlikely that the primates in that universe would advance past the “living in trees and flinging their own poo at each other” stage of development.  So it still doesn’t really make sense.

[F19_Haddock]

This new VR game is interesting: Tinker Pilot
 

I think the blue-looking clickable buttons are really intersting solution. They sit in space pretty much like the IL2 OSD already does, but they are clickable in VR.
Perhaps a few buttons like that could be a cheaper alternative to full clickable cockpits? 

[alexfry]

To me, it feels like clickable cockpits are an inevitability. At some point they will simply become table stakes for any serious sim. Which means IL2:GB gets it, it's successor (IL2:Future Whatever) gets it, or whatever eventually replaces IL2 in the market gets it.

 

Having spent plenty of time working with VR UI systems, I find the argument that it will massivly increase the per plane development cost in a serious way, totally unconvincing. Setting up bounding boxes and mapping them to exisiting functions, pales in comparison to modeling and textureing the cockpits, creating the activation animations, and developing the systems functions themselves. All of which already exist. There is work, but it's mostly in developing the framework for basic interaction, not the per plane application.

 

Whatever combination of factors are making DCS modules so much more expensive than IL2 aircraft (systems depth, business model, yacht loan size), I just don't buy that adding click boxes to already modelled and animated 3D cockpits is it.

 

Maybe there is a fundermental reason it's hard to do in the existing IL2 engine? Hard to draw a ray from the controller, or no exising concept of 6 DOF controllers in the code at all? Or maybe they don't currently think it's worth it until something like the Quest's optically driven bare hand tracking shows up on the PC side?

 

As for the devs setting, or having, a "policy" about something like this.. whatever.

Comments were made in a forum, almost half a decade ago. Software development is a fluid enterprise. And forums like this are a place where people discuss ideas around them. You're not dealing with a goverment agency.

 

Finally, given the surprising success of Untitled Goose Game, I'm not entirely convinced that Dead Horse Beating Simulator isn't actually a multi million dollar idea.

[SharpeXB]

19 hours ago, alexfry said:

Whatever combination of factors are making DCS modules so much more expensive than IL2 aircraft (systems depth, business model, yacht loan size), I just don't buy that adding click boxes to already modelled and animated 3D cockpits is it

Yet here’s the reality. 
$79 in IL-2 buys you 10 aircraft plus a map and a dynamic career campaign. 
$59 in DCS buys one aircraft. 
Those prices are fairly consistent for this genre. Flaming Cliffs planes in DCS are similar to IL-2 without full systems/clickpits and are 7 for $49. Full systems clickpit aircraft for MSFS are anywhere from about $25+

It’s not just the clickable cockpit that’s the difference, it’s more likely the full systems modeling. One goes hand in hand with the other.

 

[Enceladus828]

20 hours ago, alexfry said:

Having spent plenty of time working with VR UI systems, I find the argument that it will massivly increase the per plane development cost in a serious way, totally unconvincing. Setting up bounding boxes and mapping them to exisiting functions, pales in comparison to modeling and textureing the cockpits, creating the activation animations, and developing the systems functions themselves. All of which already exist. There is work, but it's mostly in developing the framework for basic interaction, not the per plane application.

Agree. People say that clickable cockpits are why it took 6 years for TFS to release Desert Wings-Tobruk, but no that was actually because of many factors which had nothing to do with clickable cockpits: after receiving the 1C source code decided to release the game as Blitz, decided to add ~15 more planes to make DW-T a more comprehensive product, were never given any Map Tool to build the Tobruk map, were never given any developers guide, and possibly COVID: more info here on comment #22

 

20 hours ago, alexfry said:

Whatever combination of factors are making DCS modules so much more expensive than IL2 aircraft (systems depth, business model, yacht loan size), I just don't buy that adding click boxes to already modelled and animated 3D cockpits is it.

While DCS does model their planes so that every single lever, switch, button is clickable (unlike in the IL-2 Dover series, MSFS 2020 and X-Plane) and that may contribute to the higher price, it could mainly be that's just how they set their prices -- even if there were no clickable cockpits. 

 

20 hours ago, alexfry said:

As for the devs setting, or having, a "policy" about something like this.. whatever.

Comments were made in a forum, almost half a decade ago.

Due to the fact that the search function is all bugged, probably by the time you actually find posts by the devs stating that this game won't have clickable cockpits they will already be implemented into the game. But still, the devs may have changed their minds ?

[fogpipe]

The novelty of it is fun for about 20 minutes, then its just a pita.

[BraveSirRobin]

1 hour ago, Enceladus said:

Due to the fact that the search function is all bugged, probably by the time you actually find posts by the devs stating that this game won't have clickable cockpits they will already be implemented into the game. But still, the devs may have changed their minds ?

They’re not changing their minds.

[JimTM]

2 hours ago, Enceladus said:

...

Due to the fact that the search function is all bugged, probably by the time you actually find posts by the devs stating that this game won't have clickable cockpits they will already be implemented into the game. But still, the devs may have changed their minds ?

 

FYI, you can do a Google search like so:

 

site: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com "clickable cockpits"

Edited April 5, 2022 by JimTM

[F19_Haddock]

On 4/5/2022 at 1:38 AM, SharpeXB said:

Yet here’s the reality. 
$79 in IL-2 buys you 10 aircraft plus a map and a dynamic career campaign. 
$59 in DCS buys one aircraft. 
Those prices are fairly consistent for this genre. Flaming Cliffs planes in DCS are similar to IL-2 without full systems/clickpits and are 7 for $49. Full systems clickpit aircraft for MSFS are anywhere from about $25+

It’s not just the clickable cockpit that’s the difference, it’s more likely the full systems modeling. One goes hand in hand with the other.

 

There are plenty of Flight Simulator planes for $15, all with clickable cockpits.

I can understand how going back to ALL the planes in the IL2 series to make them clickable might not make economical sense, but the systems modelling wouldn't need to change, and the cockpit animations are already there, surprisingly.

They could test the waters with some new "VR collectible" plane range to see if there is any interest. A good excuse to make us buy the same planes again... I would.

[BraveSirRobin]

2 hours ago, F19_Haddock said:

There are plenty of Flight Simulator planes for $15, all with clickable cockpits.

I can understand how going back to ALL the planes in the IL2 series to make them clickable might not make economical sense, but the systems modelling wouldn't need to change, and the cockpit animations are already there, surprisingly.

They could test the waters with some new "VR collectible" plane range to see if there is any interest. A good excuse to make us buy the same planes again... I would.

They would have to make massive changes to the game engine to enable this.  It isn’t going to happen.

[AndyJWest]

3 hours ago, F19_Haddock said:

There are plenty of Flight Simulator planes for $15, all with clickable cockpits.

 

There are. Unfortunately more than a few Flight Simulator planes costing $15 (and sometimes considerably more) feature clickable cockpits that are implemented very poorly, in a manner that I suspect few IL-2 GB players would find acceptable. The MSFS market is very much a mixed bag, with a few gems amongst the crud, with price almost no indicator of quality. And perhaps more to the point, given the comparative size of the market, the cost of implementing clickpits (even done properly) can be absorbed over a much larger purchase base. Price comparisons between MSFS and air combat sims are likely to be misleading, giving no indication of what actually matters when it comes to developers making decisions on such matters: whether the cost benefits can be absorbed over the customer base. To put it bluntly, it appears that given the size of the market, selling junk (clickpits and all) at $15 on MSFS appears to be profitable. The market IL-2 GB sits in is smaller, and I'd have to suggest less likely to tolerate such crap.

 

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by AndyJWest

[F19_Haddock]

Yes but the planes in Il2 are already made. The question is how much it would cost adding clickable cockpits on top, and how much revenue they could make if sold separately. 

 

A good example is the new dynamic tactical codes. The feature is being introduced very slowly on the background, with just handful of planes supporting it. It seems like a good model to try new features without the need to implement it across the whole plane set.

 

But sure. They probably have a pretty long list of more critical stuff on the backlog to do first...  

[SharpeXB]

It’s worth noting that the clickable cockpit in these WWII aircraft is mostly all used just to start the aircraft. 
And cold starting in IL-2 is only done in MP

And 90% of players in this game do SP

So therefore 90% of the players wouldn’t even use the click pit functions. ?