clickable cockpits, what's the appeal?

[Jade_Monkey]

I'm not a huge DCS fan but once in a while i enjoy it for a change (just finished the Blue Nosed Bastards campaign for the second time).

 

I'll say that using VR, the mouse is your head and you can map the clicks to a button in the joystick/throttle so you really dont have to use the mouse.

 

One of the upsides other than not having to map everything to a button is that you get to learn the cockpit gauges and switches very well, which translate to IL2 as well.

 

The downside of hotas and technochat in IL2 is that you don't really need the cockpit for most things. DCS has made me appreciate the IL2 cockpits much more.

 

 

 

 

[SharpeXB]

22 minutes ago, JG7_X-Man said:

Word of advice, just do a quick Goggle search before you go throwing out assumptions.

That’s what Google said the Haptx gloves probably cost. The price isn’t posted. You did say “force feedback” glove, not just VR. 

[Denum]

iL2 and clicky pits won't happen, the cost is huge and there's so many aircraft.

 

If people want a study sim that's what DCS is there for. As far as appeal? Personally I don't know. I don't want to go through the start up procedure. I'm here to fly and have fun.

 

People already whined at the cost of Normandy, are people going to be ok with a module that's 500$ or likely more? 

 

Dev time is neither free or unlimited and from what I've read between the Russian forum and here, they work *Alot* already.

 

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by Denum

[SharpeXB]

What’s hilarious about this request is that about 75% of DCS players don’t use the manual startup and just press the cheat keys. And in a WWII aircraft just about the only reason to have clickable cockpits is to start up. ?

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

Clickable cockpits are a novelty until hand tracking for vr becomes mainstream.

[SharpeXB]

45 minutes ago, =AW=drewm3i-VR said:

Clickable cockpits are a novelty until hand tracking for vr becomes mainstream.

Keep dreaming... ?
 

PS hand tracking would be using a clickable cockpit

Edited April 21, 2021 by SharpeXB

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Keep dreaming... ?
 

PS hand tracking would be using a clickable cockpit

Yes, that's exactly what I am saying. Right now, it isn't necessary and a hotas is just as good or better.

[HR_Zunzun]

On 4/21/2021 at 7:46 AM, Denum said:

If people want a study sim that's what DCS is there for. As far as appeal? Personally I don't know. I don't want to go through the start up procedure. I'm here to fly and have fun.

 

People already whined at the cost of Normandy, are people going to be ok with a module that's 500$ or likely more? 

 

Dev time is neither free or unlimited and from what I've read between the Russian forum and here, they work *Alot* already.

 

 

 

Starting up the p-47 in DCS is actually much quicker than the automatic one in il2. It doesn´t take away any flying time compared to il2 and I consider it fun. I like flying planes and i like all that involves flying a airplane (including the start up).

 

In my opinion, clickable cockpits is and add for any sim. Not because the clicking is better than using your hotas. Actually is much worse from an ergonomy point of view, but it let you simulate almost all possible systems in an aircraft without having to map all of them to your hotas. Many of the clickable functions in dcs you use it only once or twice in a flight and the beauty of it is that you don´t have to remember a key or have to map it. Also, using the "real" knob in the aircraft add a lot for immersion.

I know is not going to happen in il2 due to time and cost reasons, and I think is wise, but I have not doubt that the sim would be better with it (because the simulation would be deeper and richer).

[TempestV]

Meh ...I have DCS modules...il2... and X-Plane 11...depending on my mood...mental acuity..sobriety or snack...time...lack of distractions will determine what I fly.

I do spend more time in non clickable cockpits-but what I have to have is throttle, mixture and prop settings from an additional device. FWIW.

 

And I do use the cheat key in DCS-but have went through the tutorials A-10C which was interesting but damned if I would do the startup every time I used that a/c.

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by TempestV

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, TempestV said:

damned if I would do the startup every time I used that a/c.

The thing is if you do the startup every time you fly the aircraft, it becomes super easy. It becomes as easy as pressing a single button. To me it doesn’t matter if it’s a manual start or not, both are as easy as pressing E

Edited May 8, 2021 by SharpeXB

[Angry_Kitten]

Well its like this.  

 

I knew guys who had played HALO  for 7 years online multiplayer    

 

 

 

and never actually played the actual game

[GOZR]

On 4/18/2021 at 10:09 AM, SYN_Vander said:

I'm missing the best reason for having click pits: VR. Once you have that headset on your head it is really nice if you can just (virtually) grope around and flick switches at will. If motion capturing gloves (or sorts) become a thing it will be pretty mandatory.

However, my 3080 order, for which I have been waiting 5 months for just has been canceled (thanks MSI) so I won't be flying VR any time soon and for now I'm very happy with my HOTAS ?.

yes ! absolutely this was discussed already on Il2 Blitz called now with Oleg .. it was a must.. now this IL2 is great but we need to move with technology .. we need clickable due to the emergence of VR and gloves..  we need to be up front with it .,. listen to teh new tech not the guys with track it or hat switch they kill the sim.. adapt is key..

Need new textures for basically all cockpits .. a good ratio size of cockpit for human size also a good head placement..  I love it but it's getting outdated quickly  DCS understand this..  IL2 need to do the same.. revamp existing aircraft with some TLC on FM.

[Enceladus828]

On 4/21/2021 at 12:46 AM, Denum said:

People already whined at the cost of Normandy

People who whine at the cost of Desert Wings-Tobruk and Normandy are a bunch of lunatics. For Tobruk, the original price was $70 and not including modifications and Tropical versions, one gets 30 plane types/variants, Battleships, Cruisers, Submarines, Destroyers, several supply ship versions (they did better than 1C Maddox did with PF when it comes to ships), a detailed map, and many scripted campaigns. So for something that costs $10 less than a single IL-2 Great Battles installment, you get tons, and tons of content.

I'm certain that if this was an IL-2 GBs product then it would cost well over $100, maybe even $200.

 

For Normandy, one gets 2.5 more aircraft than in a normal IL-2 GBs installment: C-47, B-26, and V-1, so paying an additional $10 to get those planes, especially a B-26, which has not been in any flight sim (save for Mods) since CFS3, is well worth the price.

 

On 4/21/2021 at 12:46 AM, Denum said:

If people want a study sim that's what DCS is there for

We could also use Desert Wings-Tobruk and the 'yet to be announced' sequel (if it covers Malta a good title would be Falcons/Knights of Malta) as study sims. Not everything is clickable in those games, and the price is reasonable.

 

If you don't like clicking things in MSFS 2020, X-Plane, DCS, IL-2 Dover series, etc., then just don't click things. Problemo solved!

Edited May 13, 2021 by Enceladus

[Denum]

I'd still buy BoN at 100$, 

 

The point is clicky cockpits aren't worth it for BoX.

 

There's a reason DCS planes cost 4 to 5 times as much...

[AndyJWest]

2 minutes ago, Denum said:

There's a reason DCS planes cost 4 to 5 times as much...

 

And take 4 to 5 times as long to deliver.

 

Il-2 GB and DCS are built around fundamentally different approaches. Both have their merits. It's nice to have the choice. But the choice is there because the respective developers, faced with real-world limitations (developer time, hardware, and financial) have chosen to go down different paths. It is easy to construct a fantasy sim in your head which cherry-picks features from multiple products, and sticks them all in a blender. The real world doesn't work like that. 

[SharpeXB]

10 hours ago, GOZR said:

we need clickable due to the emergence of VR and gloves.. 

According to the Navigraph Survey, VR adoption in flight sims has remained flat, at 11-12% for the last 3 years. It’s apparently not growing.

Edited May 13, 2021 by SharpeXB

[F19_Haddock]

In VR you can't see the keyboard, that's why...

And I would be happy with a just few clickable buttons (gear, flaps, etc.), I don't need full DCS functionality.

[Denum]

How much more are you willing to pay for that?

 

Even if it worked out to be a modest additional 10$ per plane, the module costs would double.

 

Still cool with it? 

 

They're trying to walk a fine line between product cost and quality.

 

They've done a great job thus far and in the end.

 

It would likely be cheaper for you to buy a button box from Blackhog.

 

 

[AndyJWest]

18 minutes ago, Denum said:

It would likely be cheaper for you to buy a button box from Blackhog.

 

Or use a 'buttonbox' consisting of a generic gamepad, mounted on some sort of bracket so you don't have to hold it. For the price of a single 'clickpit' upgrade, you've got plenty of buttons, along with a d-pad and a couple of dual-axis analog sticks, which will work with any aircraft you like.

 

I've been doing this for years. Not just with IL-2 GB, but with DCS. Simpler to press a button than to use mouse and TrackIR in the cockpit, particularly for anything you need in combat. I've seen WW2 pilot training films where they emphasise that you have to learn to find controls without looking at them.

[LColony_Kong]

People want click pits because for some reason there are individuals who get a sense of accomplishment because they can push buttons in order. There is no shortage of discussions online about how sims with click pits are "hardcore" etc. Its a bunch of pretentious bullshit. Nevermind that clicking a switch in a pit is much more analogous to pressing a key on a keyboard or on a hotas than fiddling with a mouse to push a button with track ir is. Nevermind that clickpits introduce needless complexity that adds virtually nothing to gameplay and increases development time, and effort that could have been spent elsewhere.

 

As for the VR angle, I can see why this is wanted. But I am still personally opposed because I dont see VR as very compelling right now as a replacement for monitors in flight sims and I feel like it would waste time and effort essentially rebuilding the game constantly in VR's interest when time would be better spend working on the existing sim.

 

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by LColony_Red_Comet

[farley]

32 minutes ago, LColony_Red_Comet said:

People want click pits because for some reason there are individuals who get a sense of accomplishment because they can push buttons in order...... Its a bunch of pretentious bullshit.....

 

The reason I enjoy them is, in part, I want to know where all of the controls were in the plane, and have them all be usable. It's an immersion thing for me.

But I guess for me it is not that I want to be able to physically "click" each switch, but have the ability,to for example, to be open the oil cooler flaps etc and have them modelled so they actually open and make a difference. I find that part of the challenge and fun.

But maybe that's cuz I'm older (63) and so enjoy getting a wounded plane home as much as i do shooting somebody down.

I like to think I could get in the actual plane and start it up etc.

That's part of the buzz for me, and that's one of the things that clickable cockpits offer.

I don't think it pretentious to want immersion and reality.

But then I'm the kinda guy who spends hours in the Aircorps Library site studying blueprints and manuals etc.

For some of us it's a bit mpre than a game, and I think that's ok.

[Denum]

Not sure what you mean. That's all in the game. You have full control over those setting in the aircraft that require it. Unless you're flying alot of axis that is but most of theirs have automatic engine management anyway.

 

Unless you're flying on easy engine management I guess.

 

 

Basically if it's something people want. They're going to have to buy a different product.

 

This cost me 250$ or so, and it's scratched a certain itch just fine. 

 

 

 

 

[F19_Haddock]

Or the game could do something like this, to helps us VR players... 

 

[farley]

13 hours ago, Denum said:

Not sure what you mean. That's all in the game. You have full control over those setting in the aircraft that require it.

 

This cost me 250$ or so, and it's scratched a certain itch just fine. 

 

 

 

 

 

That's true Denum. Most major controls are available for use. A few minor things on the P-38 I' d like added to increase immersion a bit.

I'm not complaining; really enjoy this sim, just in my perfect world all aircraft controls would be usable.

The peripherals like you have help with the immersion as well I find.

[SharpeXB]

I’ll just keep pointing out the obvious. That it took DCS 9 years to create 6 WWII aircraft. They sell for $49 each. Their maps are $40
If IL-2 GB went for the same level of complexity then the 50 aircraft and 5 theaters in this game would take 75 years to make and the game would cost $2,700

 

These are both great games but they each can’t have every feature 

Edited May 16, 2021 by SharpeXB

[Enceladus828]

If anyone wants to make a strong point that that clickable cockpits should never be in flight sims and are something that never should have been invented, how about destroy your mouse with a hammer or run it over many times with your vehicle and get into the game and load a flight by just using the keyboard.

 

Cheers.

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Enceladus

[SharpeXB]

On 5/13/2021 at 11:50 AM, Enceladus said:

 

I'm certain that if this was an IL-2 GBs product then it would cost well over $100, maybe even $200.

Team Fusion is a hobbyist/volunteer modding team and not an actual company that needs to stay in business. They’re almost certainly operating at a loss. 

2 minutes ago, Enceladus said:

If anyone wants to make a really good point that that clickable cockpits should never be in flight sims and are something that never should have been invented, how about destroy your mouse with a hammer or run it over many times with your vehicle and get into the game and load a flight by just using the keyboard.

 

Cheers.

 

Clickable cockpits are great for certain types of flight sims. They’re just infeasible for a combat sim like IL-2 which is better with a greater variety of aircraft vs less and more highly detailed ones. 

[Enceladus828]

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

Team Fusion is a hobbyist/volunteer modding team

While you are correct that they mainly do their work in their spare time, they are no longer a mod team, they are now recognized as the official developers for the IL-2 Dover series.

 

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

not an actual company that needs to stay in business

Wrong. Just like IL-2 GBs, if the game isn't profitable anymore, they go out of business and the game ends right there.

 

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

They’re almost certainly operating at a loss. 

Says who... yourself?

[BraveSirRobin]

30 minutes ago, Enceladus said:

If anyone wants to make a strong point that that clickable cockpits should never be in flight sims and are something that never should have been invented, how about destroy your mouse with a hammer or run it over many times with your vehicle and get into the game and load a flight by just using the keyboard.

 

Cheers.

 

How does that prove anything?  I don’t use the mouse for anything while I’m flying.  The fact that I have to use it to start the mission does absolutely nothing to help your argument.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Enceladus said:

Wrong. Just like IL-2 GBs, if the game isn't profitable anymore, they go out of business and the game ends right there.

 

Says who... yourself?

I can see what these types of products cost from other actual developers. So if TF aren’t changing about the same prices… what does that tell you? They will probably not stay in business. They inherited a game which already bankrupted one developer so continuing in that direction is bound to fail. 

[Enceladus828]

7 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I can see what these types of products cost from other actual developers. So if TF aren’t changing about the same prices… what does that tell you? They will probably not stay in business. They inherited a game which already bankrupted one developer so continuing in that direction is bound to fail. 

Fascinating. How about posting that in the CloD/DW-T section of this forum.

 

P.S. If you can post that “TFS will probably not stay in business” in the IL-2 GBs section of the forum, then you can post that as well in the CloD/DW-T section as well.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Enceladus said:

Fascinating. How about posting that in the CloD/DW-T section of this forum.

 

P.S. If you can post that “TFS will probably not stay in business” in the IL-2 GBs section of the forum, then you can post that as well in the CloD/DW-T section as well.

What’s the point? Sorta off topic for that forum, asking for them to remove a feature they already have. And if TF decides to price or package that game differently in the future that’s up to them.
You’re the one asking for clickable cockpits in IL-2 GB. It’s been stated repeatedly by the Devs that this won’t happen. Enough said. 

[Guest deleted@83466]

Personally, my simming doesn’t suffer from not having clickable cockpits until you get post-Korea era fighters.  If I were flying a B-29 or even a B-17, sure, I’d want clickpits (sucker for a2a Fortress and Stratocruiser in FSX), but for the range of aircraft in current IL-2, not really necessary in my opinion.  I would fly a MiG-15 or F-86 in IL-2 (rendered to the fidelty of the current IL-2 ME-262) and not feel like I was compromising the “sim” in what I think everyone agrees is a survey sim, not a study sim.  IL-2 has all the combat essential things mapped to keys, like operation of gunsight, weapon selection.  Even something like the ME-262 startup sequence is adequately covered in just a couple of keys that covers the jist of it.  Unless you have a mouse fetish, who cares if essential system operation is taken care of with a couple of keystrokes.  In my particular setup, I actually prefer it, because clicking stuff with a mouse in the middle of combat sucks balls.  And we aren’t flying Hornets here.

Edited May 17, 2021 by SeaSerpent

[F19_Haddock]

Mouse clicking in the middle of combat sucks of course, and so does removing your VR headset to turn on the landing lights just because you've run out of buttons on your HOTAS... ?

[DD_Friar]

Clickable buttons... No, No, No and just NO.

 

As @SharpeXB said, if you want that sort of thing, fire up DCS.

 

Our developers have all sorts of other things to be getting on with.

 

 

[SharpeXB]

4 hours ago, F19_Haddock said:

Mouse clicking in the middle of combat sucks of course,

Even in DCS I doubt anyone uses the clickable cockpit controls for “combat”. Those commands are obviously mapped to a stick or HOTAS 

[Enceladus828]

5 hours ago, DD_Friar said:

if you want that sort of thing, fire up DCS.

Or Desert Wings-Tobruk

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Enceladus said:

Or Desert Wings-Tobruk

I can’t imagine that game is on the level with DCS. No way…

The thing about clickable cockpits is that they go hand in hand with full systems modeling. There’s no point in having one without the other. The only reason to give the player control over every switch and button in the cockpit is that the aircraft has been fully modeled with every system.

There’s no way that the 40 (40? that’s what Steam says it has) flyable aircraft in DWT are all modeled at DCS level of fidelity when DCS wants $50 for a single plane and the whole DWT game sells for the same price. 

[F19_Haddock]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The thing about clickable cockpits is that they go hand in hand with full systems modeling.

Not always. I just want to click on the landing lights switch without removing my VR headset... I've run out of buttons on my HOTAS ?  I don't need full systems modelling.
 

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, F19_Haddock said:

Not always. I just want to click on the landing lights switch without removing my VR headset... I've run out of buttons on my HOTAS ?  I don't need full systems modelling.
 

But it’s a big expense to do for something so trivial. If people are going to pay for the cockpit they’ll want the systems to go along with it. And this feature couldn’t be justified just to satisfy VR players, they’re only a small %