Realistic M2 .50 Dispersion and (sort of) AI Gunnery fix

[ACG_Cass]

So I originally put this in the suggestions thread a while ago and another one in the FM/AI Discussion section. It doesn't appear that the M2 .50 gun dispersion is correct. This further exacerbates the issues with the weapon as you need excellent gunnery to use them effectively, even when the platform was specifically designed to mean gunnery was less important. Also the difference between a 6 and 8 gun configuration is barely noticeable. 

 

 

I've created a mod that addresses this and increases the gun dispersion to what appears to be more realistic levels. I've also included an additional version with much more additional spread that give you an almost "Box Convergence" like pattern (this by proxy helps with the AI's iffy gunnery with wing mounted weapons and sees them landing much more hits on planes).

 

Original:

 

Modded:

 

 

 

Although a marginal increase, this has a significant impact when diving on an enemy, shooting at closer ranges, or anything that involves high deflection. You also see a much more significant difference between the 6 and 8 gun platforms of the P51 and P47. 

 

Even with my shoddy gunnery I'm able to set a He111 on fire almost every time (obviously possible without the mod but once you get in close you have to be really accurate to ensure your rounds aren't going past the target):

 

 

This was achieved by modifying the mg_usa_m2-50.txt file and simply increasing the the BulletDispersionAngleData from 0.0 to 0.1 (0.3 for the Box Convergence version). 0.6 is the maximum dispersion when the gun has overheated, which I have left unchanged. 

 

 

This will affect all .50 caliber guns within the game (A20 rear gun and Sherman MG), but not significantly enough to affect be noticeable for them. It also helps AAA M2 emplacements be slightly more effective on Medium and less snipery on High. 

 

Installation is very simple, just extract the World Objects folder into "data/LuaScripts" and then check "Mods on/enabled" in the settings or start up screen. 

 

Realistic Dispersion.zip

 

Box Convergence Dispersion.zip

 

Any questions or issues, let me know. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by ACG_Cass
grammer

[Dirtbag_Jim]

Thanks for sharing this, this is great! Always hoped there'd be a fix for the bullet dispersion.

 

EDIT: I edited the files for all the other MG's in game in case anyone wants them. I figured any other wing mounted armaments (e.g. .303's on the Hurricane), as well as defensive armaments (e.g. on bombers, etc) would benefit from this mod as well.

 

 

_________________________________________________

 

EDIT 2: To avoid confusion and ease installation, I have updated my zip to include ACG_Cass's original US M2 50 Cal mod. The zip now contains files for ALL MG's in the game, excluding Cannons. This affects (WW2) 30 cals and 50 cals from ALL nations, in both offensive armament and defensive armaments. All MG's have had their dispersion values edited in the same way Cass did for US M2 50 cals in the post above. My zip contains files only for Realistic Dispersion, not Box Dispersion (refer to Cass's post above for the differences between the two).

 

INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS: The zip has been structured for JGSME, simply drag and drop the folder named "Realistic Weapons Dispersion Mod" from the zip directly into your MODs folder in the IL-2 Directory, and enable in JGSME.

 

For those looking to modify the dispersion values on only US M2 50 Cals, please refer to the original post by @ACG_Cass.

All credit goes to Cass for originally coming up with the idea of modifying the dispersion value of the 50 cal, and his efforts in testing, researching and reporting the issue to the dev's. It's much appreciated.

Realistic Weapons Dispersion Mod.zip

Edited April 11, 2021 by Dirtbag_Jim
updated zip file and clarified contents of the zip

[HawkerMkIII_]

Nice mod, do you have any information of if in real life a plane with, say 4x 20mm cannons had the same effect of ''box convergence''? 

[ACG_Cass]

They may have had the guns at different ranges with 4 guns. I doubt it would have been overly done though. You need more guns to ensure a large box area still hasn't decent levels of concentration in it. 

 

What we have in sim is perfect point convergence, so every single gun is aiming at the exact same pixel in the sky. So it exacerbates the issue even more. 

[Creep]

Good lord, that's a problem. Totally makes sense why it's feast or famine with the .50s.

[Mtnbiker1998]

I really like this mod. Gives focused bursts of .50 quite a bit more lethality but doesn't give each individual bullet deadly HE powers like the other weapons mod does. Also makes them more effective at different ranges much like the real box convergences. And as an added bonus, it doesnt interfere with the Multicolor tracers mod!

 

I did find I liked the "realistic" version quite a bit more than the "box" version, I found the box made it a little *too* spread out to still be effective, but that may have been partially due to me using a 230m convergence? is there a particular set you recommend as the creator?

 

I'll be flying with this in singleplayer and I think I'll convince the rest of my buddies to get this setup for our Dogfight/coop sessions.

[ACG_Cass]

12 hours ago, Mtnbiker1998 said:

I did find I liked the "realistic" version quite a bit more than the "box" version, I found the box made it a little *too* spread out to still be effective, but that may have been partially due to me using a 230m convergence? is there a particular set you recommend as the creator?

 

I think it's the better option, but thought I'd add the other one in case someone has a preference for it as it helped with the AI Gunnery. 

 

In terms of convergence, the additional dispersion actually gives you more freedom to go with what you prefer. 200-250m is usually the best area but if you want some more elevation for deflection shots, 300-400m still works fine. I'd always recommend testing out a few settings in Quick Mission to see what you prefer. 

[Oyster_KAI]

Awesome MOD!!
Although it's just a MOD, it's really great!!
Has anyone compared DCS .50 cal also has the correct dispersion? 

[Eisenfaustus]

Cool mod and definitely more realistic - all guns in BoX are far too precise anyway. I still remember my surprise at the dispersion when I fired an autocannon and coaxial MG for the first time at the shooting range after having trained on a simulator with laser like accuracy ^^

[ACG_Cass]

May need to buff it out even more to get it realistic, will take a look later today:

 

 

[Denum]

Man I must say that looks just about perfect. Nice big burst. Plenty of damage. Wasn't just a quick squirt and I win. 

I really hope the devs consider trying this even temporarily between patches to see if its enough to placate the .50 woes for a while!

[Oyster_KAI]

Shooting has become much easier now, and shooting at close range won't waste ammo as before.
I heard that this MOD also helps improve the accuracy of AI shooting machine guns.
Will it also affect AAA?
I really don’t hope this will help the AAA, which is as accurate as the aliens, to be more accurate.

[I/JG54_chuishan]

Good mod Cass!

 

As I understand this is only a stop-gap measure for the game does not allow separate alteration of horizontal and vertical convergence. Historically, according to AAF Manual 200-1 Manual for Fighter Gun Harmonization, each pair of .50 cal guns on the aircraft had separate settings for horizontal and vertical convergence. Take a P-51D for example, Left No. 3 and Right No. 3(hereinafter L3 & R3)guns are set to fire higher than the pilot's sight line, L1 & R1 guns are set to fire lower the sight line, while L2 & R2 guns are set to fire exactly on the sight line. Each pair of guns also has different horizontal convergence from 1000ft to 1200ft.

 

With this arrangement, together with the dispersion coming with each individual gun, forms a 'dispersion core' at around 1000ft to 1200ft. Simply expand the dispersion of each individual gun is, therefore, only part of the story. However, I believe it will do its job considering current condition we have with this game:) 

 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by I/JG54_chuishan

[jollyjack]

call me confused? tried the game with the BoX Convergence Dispersion included mg_usa_m2-50.txt file, P51, did not seem to work ...

Edited April 11, 2021 by jollyjack

[ACG_Cass]

On 4/5/2021 at 1:50 PM, Dirtbag_Jim said:

Thanks for sharing this, this is great! Always hoped there'd be a fix for the bullet dispersion.

 

 

EDIT: I edited the files for all the other MG's in game in case anyone wants them, figured any other wing mounted armaments (e.g. .303's on the Hurricane), as well as defensive armaments (e.g. on bombers, etc) would benefit from this mod as well.

Weapons Dispersion Mod.zip 12.6 kB · 35 downloads

Edited Monday at 02:11 PM by Dirtbag_Jim

 

@jollyjack

Did you download from this comment? This was created by another user for 30 cals. 

 

The ones in the original post are both for .50s.

On 4/9/2021 at 12:49 PM, I/JG54_chuishan said:

Good mod Cass!

 

As I understand this is only a stop-gap measure for the game does not allow separate alteration of horizontal and vertical convergence. Historically, according to AAF Manual 200-1 Manual for Fighter Gun Harmonization, each pair of .50 cal guns on the aircraft had separate settings for horizontal and vertical convergence. Take a P-51D for example, Left No. 3 and Right No. 3(hereinafter L3 & R3)guns are set to fire higher than the pilot's sight line, L1 & R1 guns are set to fire lower the sight line, while L2 & R2 guns are set to fire exactly on the sight line. Each pair of guns also has different horizontal convergence from 1000ft to 1200ft.

 

With this arrangement, together with the dispersion coming with each individual gun, forms a 'dispersion core' at around 1000ft to 1200ft. Simply expand the dispersion of each individual gun is, therefore, only part of the story. However, I believe it will do its job considering current condition we have with this game:) 

 

Completely agree, although point convergence was used it was as pointy as we have. I actually originally set out to try and create a more complex harmonization but you don't seem to be able to edit the plane files without the game crashing. 

[jollyjack]

you're right, a was trying another mod (weapons etc from above) just installed it later after yours) from a post below, i'll try it again ...

PS i use JGSME for installing, do you want the compiled zip files?

 

Edited April 11, 2021 by jollyjack

[ACG_Cass]

@jollyjackyou'll need to unzip them. 

 

If you're using JGSME you'll have to create a new folder structure. Something like "Dispersion Mod/data/luascripts" and then put the unzipped world objects in there. 

[jollyjack]

Just now, ACG_Cass said:

@jollyjackyou'll need to unzip them. 

 

If you're using JGSME you'll have to create a new folder structure. Something like "Dispersion Mod/data/luascripts" and then put the unzipped world objects in there. 

i did that, cheched it too, and both installed side by side OK.

[Dirtbag_Jim]

2 hours ago, jollyjack said:

you're right, a was trying another mod (weapons etc from above) just installed it later after yours) from a post below, i'll try it again ...

PS i use JGSME for installing, do you want the compiled zip files?

 

 

That's my bad, so sorry bout any confusion I may have caused! I should have been more clear in my post.

My zip was structured for JGSME, and had the files for all MG's (all 30 cals, as well as German, Italian & Soviet 50's), only excluding cannon's and the US 50 cal from @ACG_Cass's original mod.

Will edit my comment to clarify for anyone in the future

Edited April 11, 2021 by Dirtbag_Jim
grammar

[trek]

Dirtbag Jim, I see your new edited post above. Thanks for the JSGME setup for this mod. But unless I'm missing something where is the download link?

Sorry , I see it now. I hadn't refreshed the page since your recent post and it didn't show up yet. Thanks again.

Sorry, I had to refresh the page and now I see it. Thanks again for this.

[jollyjack]

Well, i tried the brownings with a hurri, and .50 with a P51. Did not notice any improvement, even seems easier with out the mod. Is that normal?

[Avimimus]

54 minutes ago, jollyjack said:

Well, i tried the brownings with a hurri, and .50 with a P51. Did not notice any improvement, even seems easier with out the mod. Is that normal?

 

Maybe you were firing at convergence... if you are used to aiming well and firing at the right distance you'd have all of your bullets hitting the same area (and devastating the target).

 

The benefit of the higher dispersion is that bullets aren't actually coming together at the right range - they are ending up more spread out - so overall the firepower is less in any one spot, but the firepower is in a larger number of spots. More of a shot-gun effect (good for deflection shooting or if you aren't that good at judging range).

[Legioneod]

One of the reasons I hope they add other dispersion patterns to the game one day. I personally do not like point convergence, I'd much prefer if they had a box/shotgun style convergence option in the mod selection of the aircraft.

[jollyjack]

10 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

Maybe you were firing at convergence... if you are used to aiming well and firing at the right distance you'd have all of your bullets hitting the same area (and devastating the target).

 

The benefit of the higher dispersion is that bullets aren't actually coming together at the right range - they are ending up more spread out - so overall the firepower is less in any one spot, but the firepower is in a larger number of spots. More of a shot-gun effect (good for deflection shooting or if you aren't that good at judging range).

 

LoL, did not think i was that good untill now, thanks Avimus ... the only real gun i ever fired was an airgun in my youth, shooting target cards.

[Oyster_KAI]

@ACG_Cass Is your mod including weapons Mod? 

 

[vonGraf]

At the moment I'm testing both mods at the same time; they're using different files. Seems to work well.

[354thFG_Rails]

On 4/15/2021 at 10:17 AM, Oyster_KAI said:

@ACG_Cass Is your mod including weapons Mod? 

 

This mod is just dispersion it isn't using the weapons mod.

[nesher666]

@ACG_Cass I really like this mod of yours, it is much appreciated!!! 

I tried both convergence versions, but lately I stuck with the box version since it helps you out in a quick and close deflection shooting situation and even the AI seems to be performing a bit better with it, but that may as well be a placebo effect on my end... 

Please keep up the good work on this mod, any future fine tunings are welcome! 

Edited April 29, 2021 by nesher666

[Siegfried-Schutz]

Could someone tell me how to rewamp the overall damage of M2 guns, because now it is not satisfying me at all.....

[Stonehouse]

52 minutes ago, Siegfried-Schutz said:

Could someone tell me how to rewamp the overall damage of M2 guns, because now it is not satisfying me at all.....

Several different flavours here including an M2 only version.

 

Weapons Mod - Mods - IL-2 Sturmovik Forum (il2sturmovik.com)

[Siegfried-Schutz]

1 hour ago, No457_Stonehouse said:

Several different flavours here including an M2 only version.

 

Weapons Mod - Mods - IL-2 Sturmovik Forum (il2sturmovik.com)

Thank you, I already have it. I have still not enough damage for the 37mm SH-37 gun.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

On 6/4/2021 at 8:00 PM, No457_Stonehouse said:

Several different flavours here including an M2 only version.

 

Weapons Mod - Mods - IL-2 Sturmovik Forum (il2sturmovik.com)

Does this work with that mod?

[blue_max]

Awesome mod! Quick question: how does this work when hosting an MP session?

[150_GIAP-Red_Dragon]

Since I almost stopped using my favorite P 51 and P47 planes and almost don't fly online because of this, I finally tried this mod, and I'm just impressed how well these bullets can work! I just don't understand why devs don't want to temporarily use a similar solution to the problem. Why it is possible to make "concrete" tails for a temporary solution for years and can't just add a little dispercion to get closer to a realistic state. This mod won't make you an ace, but it definitely gives you back your 6 or 8 machine guns instead of 2 or 4. This is felt especially when you destroy ground targets, finally you can feel why the p47 was so good at it. And vice versa, without mod you can remove 4 machine guns on the P47 and you won't see any difference at all.. I can add to this that due to the lack of a solution to this problem, pre-orders have become meaningless for me, since I still fly offline and have to wait for the release to get full offline content, and apparently I will also refuse pre-orders further. But I still hope that the devs will be able to change something with the 50 cal setting

Edited April 5, 2022 by -332FG-Red_Pilot

[-332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138]

I tried the original mod and got an error where i had no tracers but i was still downing planes. Dispersion options definitely need to be added to the game or at least there needs to be some realistic dispersion implemented. It seems like a rather easy thing to add considering everything they've been doing and some of the other shortcuts they've taken in the past. Cough iron tail. This would probably make the .50's shooting ball as good as they need to be now that the velocity has been adjusted. THIS NEEDS CONSIDERATION TO BE ADDED TO THE GAME. This would probably make the .30 machine guns effective at close range as they should be in large numbers.

Edited April 8, 2022 by -332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138

[354thFG_Rails]

They did correct the dispersion. The need for this mod is moot now. What you want is different convergences. Which I agree. We need to have option to have point convergence or box convergence 

[150_GIAP-Red_Dragon]

Obviously, they can't fix the convergence now, but they can change the dispersion. Simulators are full of compromises. If the correct dispersion without the correct convergence leads to an absolutely abnormal result, when all the power is concentrated in one tiny point instead of wide cone, then this will not be realistic in any case, despite the correct "dispersion"!

 

 

 

A compromise that will make the overall result more realistic will be reasonable. and be more honest with the P-47 and P-51 pilots. In addition, I have endured compromises of the concrete tail of the Me-109 and others, why not be another compromise?

 

In other words, I don't care how it will be achieved, it is important that the result should be closer to realism and not vice versa..

 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by -332FG-Red_Pilot

[354thFG_Rails]

On 4/8/2022 at 12:12 PM, -332FG-Red_Pilot said:

Obviously, they can't fix the convergence now, but they can change the dispersion. Simulators are full of compromises. If the correct dispersion without the correct convergence leads to an absolutely abnormal result, when all the power is concentrated in one tiny point instead of wide cone, then this will not be realistic in any case, despite the correct "dispersion"!

 

 

 

A compromise that will make the overall result more realistic will be reasonable. and be more honest with the P-47 and P-51 pilots. In addition, I have endured compromises of the concrete tail of the Me-109 and others, why not be another compromise?

 

In other words, I don't care how it will be achieved, it is important that the result should be closer to realism and not vice versa..

 

 

 

I don’t know how long you’ve been playing but the dispersion is more in line with what was deemed acceptable in manuals. 75% @ 4 mil and 100% @ 8 mil. Before the 50’s were more accurate. If I recall it was more closely to 100% @ 4 mil. What we have now is more spread at distance which I think helps greatly with getting more rounds on target. I think the devs can most certainly do something similar to what clod does where you can set the convergence for each gun in the battery. Probably not ideal for streamlining everything but I like the idea of having more control over how I would want the guns setup. Heck it would be nice to if incendiaries get implemented to have control over belt composition as well for all aircraft. 

[Hook_Echo]

This mod is still working, but when I exit the game I get an error message "Config errors found. Saved to CFGPool.log". I have gone through all my mods and this is the offending party.

[Mtnbiker1998]

3 hours ago, Hook_Echo said:

This mod is still working, but when I exit the game I get an error message "Config errors found. Saved to CFGPool.log". I have gone through all my mods and this is the offending party.

This mod is no longer relevant. The .50 cals in vanilla game have been updated with proper dispersion as well as corrected ballistics as Per Yak Panther's research.