Tank busting, busted?

[Sybreed]

Hey all, I've been practicing with the Hs-129 against KV-1s in quick mission and have been struggling to get kills. It seems to be very random and tanks seem to be wayyy more tough than what I remembered 2 years ago. After firing 30 rounds at KV-1s, I only managed to get 1 kill. I have the track if it can be sent to anyone. And yes, I attacked from a perpendicular angle at a level angle as well because I know you need to attack their armor straight on instead of diving 30 degrees like T-34s.

 

Anyone having a similar experience or am I just bad? (please don't tell me I'm just bad ahah, I checked the track and I've hit most of my mk 101 shots).

[Lusekofte]

I cannot really help you. My buddies force me to fly fighters so when I do the tankbusting role I end up kamikaze into it.

Because they seemingly getting harder to kill. I find tanks hard to take out, the scale is off, compared to guncams. You cannot really shoot until very close. Just compare vehicles taking off in a plane.

[Denum]

Been dabbling with the AP and ground Vic's, you can kill them it seems.

[Plurp]

52 minutes ago, Sybreed said:

Hey all, I've been practicing with the Hs-129 against KV-1s in quick mission and have been struggling to get kills. It seems to be very random and tanks seem to be wayyy more tough than what I remembered 2 years ago. After firing 30 rounds at KV-1s, I only managed to get 1 kill. I have the track if it can be sent to anyone. And yes, I attacked from a perpendicular angle at a level angle as well because I know you need to attack their armor straight on instead of diving 30 degrees like T-34s.

 

Anyone having a similar experience or am I just bad? (please don't tell me I'm just bad ahah, I checked the track and I've hit most of my mk 101 shots).

They are hard nuts to crack.  I hit middle between the tracks or the rear, or take the 2 50kg especially when armed with the 101

[ITAF_Airone1989]

1 hour ago, Sybreed said:

Hey all, I've been practicing with the Hs-129 against KV-1s in 

 

Did you check to have armour piercing rounds and not the high explosive ones?

[Sybreed]

24 minutes ago, ITAF_Airone1989 said:

 

Did you check to have armour piercing rounds and not the high explosive ones?

If the armor piercing are the blue ones, then yeah I used AP.

[Sybreed]

4 hours ago, LuseKofte said:

I cannot really help you. My buddies force me to fly fighters so when I do the tankbusting role I end up kamikaze into it.

Because they seemingly getting harder to kill. I find tanks hard to take out, the scale is off, compared to guncams. You cannot really shoot until very close. Just compare vehicles taking off in a plane.

Never play career mode?

[Sybreed]

Tried again, almost all hits on the tanks, no kills this time. I'll try to upload it to youtube tomorrow so I can show you guys...

[Plurp]

2 hours ago, Sybreed said:

Tried again, almost all hits on the tanks, no kills this time. I'll try to upload it to youtube tomorrow so I can show you guys...

Tested in quick mission.  3 Kvs.  Hitting the top engine deck at 20 to 30 down angle, kills the engine and then the tank with enough rounds.  Also middle between the treads takes a lot of rounds, so I tried hitting front 1/4 between the treads, which did the trick.  I got all 3 KVs with the 101 this way.

 

Here is a track of just the tread attack.

Duckvs3Kv.zip

Edited April 4, 2021 by Plurp

[Lusekofte]

9 hours ago, Sybreed said:

Never play career mode?

Only a few , some are boring as he'll, repetitive and ai simply make it not worth while. Might test a hs129 career

[ShamrockOneFive]

The KV-1 is one of the most heavily armored early war tanks. The KV-1S is a bit lighter but either way you'll probably need a 30 degree dive on the rear deck of the tank to try and get to the softest part of the armor.

 

I'd suggest practicing against a lighter tank at first and then working your way up to some of the heavier ones.

[RNAS10_Oliver]

18 hours ago, Sybreed said:

It seems to be very random and tanks seem to be wayyy more tough than what I remembered 2 years ago.

 

Quote

For instance, in the coming update, you'll experience the higher fidelity damage modeling for AI controllable ground objects such as trucks and tanks. Before, there was no difference where you hit a truck, but in the new system, each 'simple' vehicle has many types of simulated parts - wheels or trucks, engine, ammo rack, fuel tanks, driver, turret, main gun. By hitting a simple AI vehicle at these parts you can immobilize it or render it inoperable by damaging a turret or main gun if any. Statistics system will consider it destroyed if its ammo, explosive cargo or fuel tanks detonated or its crew was killed or its engine was destroyed or its suspension has been rendered inoperable (at least two wheels or tracks damaged). All this not only makes the tank missions more interesting but also increases the simulation accuracy of the ground attack missions for pilots.

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/168-developer-diary/?do=findComment&comment=690091

 

I'm guessing that change was the cause of your differing experiences. In case your not aware also vehicles do not blow up when destroyed anymore, so them having blown up or not is no longer an indication of whether its destroyed or not. The vehicle could appear from the 3rd person to be intact but in fact be destroyed already. Use the statistics screen and see whether you've been credited them instead.

 

And there also seems to be some sort of delay between an attack having been made and the credit being given, as though the crew make the decision after the attack that they are now combat ineffective, and then give you the credit. Well whatever the case it does not seem to be instantaneous between attack and destroyed credit.

[Sybreed]

7 hours ago, LuseKofte said:

Only a few , some are boring as he'll, repetitive and ai simply make it not worth while. Might test a hs129 career

 

My HS-129 career in Stalingrad has had plentyyy of action so far. I highly recommend it. Sometimes I barely have time to regroup with the escort that a flight of Yaks jump us. So far, 4 missions in, all 4 have been action packed and 4 felt completely different.

 

Here's one track I saved and posted on youtube. I targeted 2 specific tanks. Really expected to damage one enough to stop it, but nope. Am I doing something super wrong?

 

Il-2 Sturmovik - Invincible tanks - YouTube

 

 

Edited April 4, 2021 by Sybreed

[BlitzPig_EL]

You are attacking the most heavily armored Soviet tanks in the sim from the side with light aircraft cannon.  Attack from the tank's rear and aim for the top of the engine compartment.

[Sybreed]

21 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

You are attacking the most heavily armored Soviet tanks in the sim from the side with light aircraft cannon.  Attack from the tank's rear and aim for the top of the engine compartment.

German pilots were taught to attack kvs and t34s from the side with the 30mm...

 

 

Edited April 4, 2021 by Sybreed

[BlitzPig_EL]

Well, that may be true, but in the sim you are best to attack from the rear.

[Sybreed]

3 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Well, that may be true, but in the sim you are best to attack from the rear.

Hmm then perhaps devs should look at 30mm penetration's capabilities...

[Lusekofte]

34 minutes ago, Sybreed said:

German pilots were taught to attack kvs and t34s from the side with the 30mm...

 

 

In books I read that touch HS 129 included magazines like Flypast. They went in enemy territory and attacked in direction straigh towards own lines regardless how the target was pointed.

The losses due to ground fire forced this tactics,  this way they had a chance getting to own lines if hit. JU 87 G2 pilots aimed at deck behind tower, but often in guncams you can see they went for the side and tracks.

I have in many years taken documentaries for truth, but older as I am, I grown a scepticism to them. They are like magazines,  they mirror a subjectiv opinion of the editor

Edited April 4, 2021 by LuseKofte

[Sybreed]

18 hours ago, Plurp said:

Tested in quick mission.  3 Kvs.  Hitting the top engine deck at 20 to 30 down angle, kills the engine and then the tank with enough rounds.  Also middle between the treads takes a lot of rounds, so I tried hitting front 1/4 between the treads, which did the trick.  I got all 3 KVs with the 101 this way.

 

Here is a track of just the tread attack.

Duckvs3Kv.zip 4.59 MB · 3 downloads

Did you attack from the side or the rear? Can't open your track.

[Plurp]

4 hours ago, Sybreed said:

Did you attack from the side or the rear? Can't open your track.

In this track, the side.  Flaps down to help get as close to 0 degrees dive as possible.  Works for the rear also.  Otherwise, normal 20 deg dive for top down on the engine compartment.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Plurp

[migmadmarine]

I'm surprised to hear about good results against the KV from 6 o'clock high, I would have thought the relative angle even with a 30 degree dive would be enough to negate the the benefits off going for the thinner engine deck. I've been able to get at least mobility kills against KVs coming in from 3 or 9 o'clock low, and 6 high against the T-34, you can often get their engine smoking with this method. Also note again what another has said above, that not all tanks die in a fireball anymore, the game will consider engine destruction, crew kills, immobility etc all "dead" now, many of which are much less spectacular. Also note that the scoreboard often takes several seconds to a minute to register a ground target kill. 

@LuseKofteyou watch the video? He's reading from the Luftwaffe's own test report of the weapons against captured KVs and T-34s, this ain't some history channel guy making grand statements about "the luftwaffe's UNSTOPPABLE tank KILLER" despite what the thumbnail may suggest. 

[Lusekofte]

4 hours ago, migmadmarine said:

LuseKofteyou watch the video? He's reading from the Luftwaffe's own test report of the weapons against captured KVs and T-34s, this ain't some history channel guy making grand statements about "the luftwaffe's UNSTOPPABLE tank KILLER" despite what the thumbnail may suggest. 

It might be, my point is. I do not even trust my sources. But how the pilot really operated , in my mind what I wrote made sense. What was adviced is another matter.

I get more survivable hours in servers in a HS 129 and a2a kills for that matter with less flying hours than I get in a P47 and IL 2.

But I normally get only 1 or two tanks with it on a mission. 

[Sybreed]

9 hours ago, migmadmarine said:

I'm surprised to hear about good results against the KV from 6 o'clock high, I would have thought the relative angle even with a 30 degree dive would be enough to negate the the benefits off going for the thinner engine deck. I've been able to get at least mobility kills against KVs coming in from 3 or 9 o'clock low, and 6 high against the T-34, you can often get their engine smoking with this method. Also note again what another has said above, that not all tanks die in a fireball anymore, the game will consider engine destruction, crew kills, immobility etc all "dead" now, many of which are much less spectacular. Also note that the scoreboard often takes several seconds to a minute to register a ground target kill. 

@LuseKofteyou watch the video? He's reading from the Luftwaffe's own test report of the weapons against captured KVs and T-34s, this ain't some history channel guy making grand statements about "the luftwaffe's UNSTOPPABLE tank KILLER" despite what the thumbnail may suggest. 

 

if you watch my video (it's about 3 minutes on youtube), you would see that both tanks I shoot at continue running without any issue. No kill whatsoever. I tried going both for the engine and for ammo explosions by shooting at the turret, but I'm not sure ammo explosions are modeled in-game.

 

Edit : oh and Bismarck explained he had to use more clickbait titles because of YouTube's algorithm.  He hates it as well. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Sybreed

[JG1_Vonrd]

I can't attest to the truth of this article but it seems to be well researched and believable given that ALL countries had vastly inflated claims of kills (air or ground) compared to what subsequent research has found. 

 

See this statement about where to attack / aim:

While the 37mm cannon was far more accurate than rockets, the much smaller projectile could only penetrate the thinner part of a tank’s armor, i.e., the horizontal surfaces, especially the top of the turret and the armor above the tank’s engines. 

 

https://www.historynet.com/myth-of-the-tankbuster.htm

 

[Asgar]

On 4/4/2021 at 10:59 AM, LuseKofte said:

Only a few , some are boring as he'll, repetitive and ai simply make it not worth while.

POV: you‘re Erich Hartmann who has been fighting on the eastern front for 2 years ?

[Lusekofte]

12 hours ago, Asgar said:

POV: you‘re Erich Hartmann who has been fighting on the eastern front for 2 years ?

Nope, I am igor zBokkerski getting wipped by a ai I got fed up turning circles with in a inferior plane

[Yogiflight]

On 4/5/2021 at 4:25 PM, Sybreed said:

I tried going both for the engine and for ammo explosions by shooting at the turret,

I wouldn't go for a KV-1 turret, always for the lower hull. The armor there is much thinner. I gave it today a try and killed one KV-1 with one pass, no explosion or large fire. Maybe it would have started burning if I would have waited longer. A second one, this one I had attacked from the rear, couldn't move anymore, then I got issues with my TrackIR and exited the QMB mission.

[Sybreed]

1 hour ago, Yogiflight said:

I wouldn't go for a KV-1 turret, always for the lower hull. The armor there is much thinner. I gave it today a try and killed one KV-1 with one pass, no explosion or large fire. Maybe it would have started burning if I would have waited longer. A second one, this one I had attacked from the rear, couldn't move anymore, then I got issues with my TrackIR and exited the QMB mission.

Have you watched my video? I feel like I went there as well.

[Yogiflight]

3 hours ago, Sybreed said:

Have you watched my video? I feel like I went there as well.

LOL, I had started to view the 'German Tank Buster' video and was wondering, what I should see there. Now I saw the right one and yes it looks like you are right on target. The problem might be, that you have to shoot at very short distance to penetrate the KV-1's armor, attacking very low from its 3 or 9. I just tried it again and destroyed one, but at one of my next attacks touched the ground. That is the risk, when attacking that low.

But what I wrote above, was connected to your statement, that you tried to go for ammo explosions by shooting at the turret. But the MK 101 and 103 are not the weapons to shoot at a KV-1's turret.

[Sybreed]

39 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

LOL, I had started to view the 'German Tank Buster' video and was wondering, what I should see there. Now I saw the right one and yes it looks like you are right on target. The problem might be, that you have to shoot at very short distance to penetrate the KV-1's armor, attacking very low from its 3 or 9. I just tried it again and destroyed one, but at one of my next attacks touched the ground. That is the risk, when attacking that low.

But what I wrote above, was connected to your statement, that you tried to go for ammo explosions by shooting at the turret. But the MK 101 and 103 are not the weapons to shoot at a KV-1's turret.

 

Understood, although the t-34 also took those shoots like nothing happened. The other video I posted from Military aviation history still prove my point that the mk-101 should have a decent enough chance to penetrate a target at close range. And the data is from the germans testing the gun itself.

[Sonntagskind]

Check out Requiems video on using the Hs129 for strafing attacks. It has been very helpful for me. The description also includes a link to a training mission he created:

 

[jollyjack]

LoL, with a Halberstadt it's a piece of cake using bombs that is  ..

Tiger Killing Halberstadt.zip

Edited April 8, 2021 by jollyjack

[Sonntagskind]

On 4/3/2021 at 9:01 PM, Sybreed said:

Hey all, I've been practicing with the Hs-129 against KV-1s in quick mission and have been struggling to get kills. It seems to be very random and tanks seem to be wayyy more tough than what I remembered 2 years ago. After firing 30 rounds at KV-1s, I only managed to get 1 kill. I have the track if it can be sent to anyone. And yes, I attacked from a perpendicular angle at a level angle as well because I know you need to attack their armor straight on instead of diving 30 degrees like T-34s.

 

Anyone having a similar experience or am I just bad? (please don't tell me I'm just bad ahah, I checked the track and I've hit most of my mk 101 shots).

Just tried Requiems Hs129 training mission: I managed to disable all kv-1 tanks in the column, but I did not manage to get a kill. I got some kills on the T-34s though...

You are not the only one struggling.

[[808_BOB]_RlCK]

The Duck (Hs 129) only carries one 30mm cannon. KV-1 was a tank that became notorious because of its heavy armor. I wouldn't suggest attacking a KV-1 from the side with the 30mm, but only from the rear or diving almost on top of it. The Stuka with 37mm cannons can easily attack and kill KV-1 tanks from the sides, but I doubt the Duck even has enough penetration on its 30mm cannon.