Fall '42 balance tankset

[ITAF_Airone1989]

Hi to all,

I was wondering if a set of 

- KV1

- Sherman

- T34 (42)

+ PzIII L

+ PzIII M

+ Pz VI 

 

could be considered balanced and quite of historic for a Stalingrad battle.

If not, do you have any suggestions?

 

Thanks ?

 

[ShampooX]

Technically, the Tiger never made it to Stalingrad.  While Hoth's 4th Panzer Army was supposed to break the encirclement so that the 6th Army could retreat, he never made it.  The 4th had the initial compliment of PZ VI's, some from the first summer time deliveries of H1's and mostly in the freshly arrived 11th Panzer Division.  But Hoth could not break through and thus the Tigers never really fought at Stalingrad - and even if you wanted to set up a mission around it, it would have been in December, not the Fall, and Tigers would have been in the areas some 60 miles West of the city.  Hope this helps.

[ITAF_Airone1989]

2 hours ago, 11thPanzer_Pete said:

Technically, the Tiger never made it to Stalingrad.  While Hoth's 4th Panzer Army was supposed to break the encirclement so that the 6th Army could retreat, he never made it.  The 4th had the initial compliment of PZ VI's, some from the first summer time deliveries of H1's and mostly in the freshly arrived 11th Panzer Division.  But Hoth could not break through and thus the Tigers never really fought at Stalingrad - and even if you wanted to set up a mission around it, it would have been in December, not the Fall, and Tigers would have been in the areas some 60 miles West of the city.  Hope this helps.

 

Many thanks, but I guess that any other tank in the game is even less historic, right?

[Cybermat47]

19 minutes ago, ITAF_Airone1989 said:

 

Many thanks, but I guess that any other tank in the game is even less historic, right?

The Panzer IV Ausf. G without side skirts would be a much more historically accurate choice than the Tiger. IIRC the Panzer IV Ausf. F2 had very few differences from the Ausf. G, and it was actually at Stalingrad.

[ITAF_Airone1989]

18 minutes ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

The Panzer IV Ausf. G without side skirts would be a much more historically accurate choice than the Tiger. IIRC the Panzer IV Ausf. F2 had very few differences from the Ausf. G, and it was actually at Stalingrad.

Great, thanks again...

So KV1, Sherman and T34(42) VS PzIII and PzIV... 

But considering speed and gun caliber, is this set balance? 

[ShampooX]

Yes the Panzer 4G with side and turret schurzen is essentially the Panzer 4H which didn't arrive onto the Russian front until Spring 43 as the first Panthers were being delivered.  So Cybermat 47 is correct, disable the skirted plates.  You have to ask yourself then do you want balance or historical accuracy?  To me, the history is the balance.

Edited March 21, 2021 by 11thPanzer_Pete

[ww2fighter20]

Certainly no shermans at Stalingrad, there were only around 40 shermans delivered by lend-lease around the very end of 1942 and these were used for testing and training purposes.

[JG27_Steini]

14 hours ago, ITAF_Airone1989 said:

Hi to all,

I was wondering if a set of 

- KV1

- Sherman

- T34 (42)

+ PzIII L

+ PzIII M

+ Pz VI 

 

could be considered balanced and quite of historic for a Stalingrad battle.

If not, do you have any suggestions?

 

Thanks ?

 

 

Do you want it historical or balanced? Your set of tanks might be historical, but not balanced. The PzIII can not compete with the T34 or the KV1 and both tanks are better than the PzIV. The PzIV at least has a fair chance to penetrate the armour. The PzIII has only a small chance if it can get very close, but even than it takes some rounds to disable the enemy. 

Edited March 22, 2021 by JG27_Steini

[ITAF_Airone1989]

4 minutes ago, JG27_Steini said:

 

Do you want it historical or balanced? Your set of tanks might be historical, but not balanced. The PzIII can not compete with the T34 or the KV1 and both tanks are better than the PzIV. The PzIV at least has a fair chance to penetrate the armour

As much historical as possible, but keeping things fun for both sides...

What is your suggestion?

[JG27_Steini]

Just now, ITAF_Airone1989 said:

As much historical as possible, but keeping things fun for both sides...

What is your suggestion?

 

Fun for both sides? You can use all tanks (except sherman), but you might let the KV and T34 attack the germans, so that they have some defending positions in the town or fortifications.

[Lofte]

On 3/22/2021 at 1:30 AM, ITAF_Airone1989 said:

Great, thanks again...

So KV1, Sherman and T34(42) VS PzIII and PzIV... 

But considering speed and gun caliber, is this set balance? 

You must be jokeing? This is only possible balance set in the game. T-34 vs Pz-IV + Pz-IIIL/M.

KV only has little better armor and 5th crew member - in other things almost identical to the T-34.

Pz-IVF2s were in 4th panzer army already in july-august 1942 and fought in area south of Stalingrad.

In december 1942 two companies (~30 tanks) of long barreled Pz-IV were in 6th panzer division (operation "Winter Storm").

Tigers never were at Stalingrad..

[ITAF_Airone1989]

Mmm..

@Lofte What about T34&KV1 vs PzIV&PzV?

They seems to have pretty similar gun&speed...

Edited March 23, 2021 by ITAF_Airone1989

[Lofte]

27 minutes ago, ITAF_Airone1989 said:

Mmm..

@Lofte What about T34&KV1 vs PzIV&PzV?

They seems to have pretty similar gun&speed...

aha... very simlar.

Even though T-34 can't penetrate Pz-V front armor at any distance while Pz-V can do it at 1,5-2 km)

[ITAF_Airone1989]

And can the KV1 do that?

[Cybermat47]

14 minutes ago, ITAF_Airone1989 said:

And can the KV1 do that?

No, it has the same gun as the T-34.

 

Including the Tiger and the Panther would be inaccurate and give Germany a massive advantage. 
 

Excluding the Tiger and the Panther would be accurate and give the Soviets an advantage.

Edited March 23, 2021 by [Pb]Cybermat47

[ITAF_Airone1989]

LOL.

Thanks Cybermat.

 

For what I know Germans had an advantage at the beginning cause they were using large armour division, while the Soviet tanks were used in small numbers as infantry support.

Was still like that in 1942?

[Lofte]

1 hour ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

Excluding the Tiger and the Panther would be accurate and give the Soviets an advantage.

What exactly advantage (except speed)?

[JG27_Steini]

36 minutes ago, Lofte said:

What exactly advantage (except speed)?

 

T34 and Pz IV is the best balance setup. Dont underestimate speed. PzIV is much slower if not on the road and T34 has better armour. I you have ever chased a T34 on rough ground trying to get a good position you will know. In multiplayer T34 will reach strategic points much faster and hase more possibilities. The PzIV is too slow. If you gain a important point (hill, forest, fortification) much faster than the opponent you have much better chance to win the fight. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by JG27_Steini

[Cybermat47]

5 hours ago, Lofte said:

What exactly advantage (except speed)?

The T-34 and KV-1 both have 76.2mm guns. The only German tank with a comparable weapon would the the Panzer IV, as the Panzer III uses a 50mm gun.

[Lofte]

6 hours ago, JG27_Steini said:

Dont underestimate speed

What should T-34 do with +10-15 km/h in clear battlefield? Sometimes it can help only die faster and that's all.

If we talk about Pz-IV and T-34 imo Pz-IV has two important advantages.

1) Pz-4 has 5 crew members. Commander is separate person. No need to jump up (to look around) and down (to aim) constantly

2) Pz-4 has more powerful long barreled gun (43 or 48 calbers) while T-34 has short barreld gun (41,5 calibers)

 

T-34 has also two advantages

1) Speed

2) Armor with large slope angles (teoretically more chance for ricoshet)

 

So you can choose on which tank you go in battle - fast but blind and a bit underguned or slow but with more powerful gun and good observation and command/control system.

 

[JG27_Steini]

6 hours ago, Lofte said:

What should T-34 do with +10-15 km/h in clear battlefield?

 

 

Right with armament and armour, speed is a key element of a tank. If 2 elements are similar, speed makes the difference.

[BlitzPig_EL]

And yet, with it's speed advantage, 8 T34s were lost for every German tank that was destroyed, in the real war.

 

Just another case where simulators don't simulate very well.

[JG27_Steini]

8 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

And yet, with it's speed advantage, 8 T34s were lost for every German tank that was destroyed, in the real war.

 

Just another case where simulators don't simulate very well.

 

That would give us a revolt. As you know it had to with the inhumanity by russian leaders. Better german tacticts or tanks had a minor effect.

[LachenKrieg]

12 hours ago, Lofte said:

What should T-34 do with +10-15 km/h in clear battlefield? Sometimes it can help only die faster and that's all.

If we talk about Pz-IV and T-34 imo Pz-IV has two important advantages.

1) Pz-4 has 5 crew members. Commander is separate person. No need to jump up (to look around) and down (to aim) constantly

2) Pz-4 has more powerful long barreled gun (43 or 48 calbers) while T-34 has short barreld gun (41,5 calibers)

 

T-34 has also two advantages

1) Speed

2) Armor with large slope angles (teoretically more chance for ricoshet)

 

So you can choose on which tank you go in battle - fast but blind and a bit underguned or slow but with more powerful gun and good observation and command/control system.

 

Very well said, but there are probably a couple of other advantages you could add to the T34 side. The first being numbers. The German's were heavily outnumbered throughout the Eastern front. But the second, and probably the biggest advantage the T34 side had was the guy in charge of the German side. Only a complete buffoon would string a smaller army out across hundreds of miles and four seasons with inadequate food, water, material supplies, and reserves, and then make the decree that under no circumstances was the heavily outnumbered force allowed to retreat. Stalingrad was a perfect example of how this guy was destined to forfeit the war.

 

Another advantage that the T34 side seems to have in this SIM is that it seems to be favored slightly, even when up against the Tiger, or Panther. 

[Cybermat47]

On 3/24/2021 at 10:28 PM, JG27_Steini said:

 

That would give us a revolt. As you know it had to with the inhumanity by russian leaders. Better german tacticts or tanks had a minor effect.

How so? I don’t think that the Holodomor or Great Purge would have had such an impact on T-34 losses. 

[JG27_Steini]

4 hours ago, =13NVO=Eeafanas said:

This comrade just grew up on myths about the USSR, do not pay attention.

 

Was not me who wrote this.  You might explain the high T34 losses. 

 

Quote

8 T34s were lost for every German tank that was destroyed, in the real war.

 

5 hours ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

How so? I don’t think that the Holodomor or Great Purge would have had such an impact on T-34 losses. 

 

No, but T34 were pushed into risky attacks often enough. I have read many stories about rushing T34 straight into enemy defensive lines. 

[Peasant]

On 3/24/2021 at 12:33 AM, Lofte said:

What should T-34 do with +10-15 km/h in clear battlefield? Sometimes it can help only die faster and that's all.

If we talk about Pz-IV and T-34 imo Pz-IV has two important advantages.

1) Pz-4 has 5 crew members. Commander is separate person. No need to jump up (to look around) and down (to aim) constantly

2) Pz-4 has more powerful long barreled gun (43 or 48 calbers) while T-34 has short barreld gun (41,5 calibers)

 

T-34 has also two advantages

1) Speed

2) Armor with large slope angles (teoretically more chance for ricoshet)

 

So you can choose on which tank you go in battle - fast but blind and a bit underguned or slow but with more powerful gun and good observation and command/control system.

 

 

I disagree with this notion. I believe it is obvious that hitting a moving target is more difficult than a stationary one and hitting a fast moving target is even more so. Although both tanks will have to stop in order to fire accurately enough to hit a tank sized target. And T-34s are gonna need that speed to survive long enough to get in effective range where they can match the german tanks superior firepower, before they are destroyed.

 

 

[JG27_Steini]

45 minutes ago, Peasant said:

 

I disagree with this notion. I believe it is obvious that hitting a moving target is more difficult than a stationary one and hitting a fast moving target is even more so. Although both tanks will have to stop in order to fire accurately enough to hit a tank sized target. And T-34s are gonna need that speed to survive long enough to get in effective range where they can match the german tanks superior firepower, before they are destroyed.

 

 

 

This was a PzIV and T34 comparison only and he is right in that case. The faster T34 is indeed harder to hit in motion, but as a good gunner this is no problem at all. After the first shot, you should get your target.

Edited March 26, 2021 by JG27_Steini

[JG27_Steini]

46 minutes ago, =13NVO=Eeafanas said:

Inexperience of crews

 

Who send inexperienced crews to front instead of training them? After 1943 russia was in full offensive on all fronts. It was up to the leaders to send inexperienced crews to death. You nailed it 

 

1945 stalin wanted to reach berlin earlier then the americans, at all costs and no matter of losses. There are many more examples how young soldiers were sentenced to death. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by JG27_Steini

[JG27_Steini]

2 hours ago, =13NVO=Eeafanas said:

in 1943 there was no Russia, there was the Soviet Union (USSR)

 

Can you provide documentary evidence?

 

Read this article.  (use google translate)

https://topwar.ru/157616-sovetskie-i-germanskie-poteri-tankov-v-1942-g-akkuratnee-so-statistikoj.html

 

Youself prooved me. Thats enough for me. 

[JG27_Steini]

2 hours ago, =13NVO=Eeafanas said:

There is no evidence - no trial.  I ask you to stop blaming without evidence the country in which you have never lived.

 

You gave the evidence yourself. I am sorry that you feel sad about that. You might block me if your ego can not stand any discussion about history.

 

8 vs 1 my friend, 8 vs 1. Sorry i could not prevent ?

 

15 hours ago, =13NVO=Eeafanas said:

Inexperience of crews

 

[Cybermat47]

15 hours ago, JG27_Steini said:

 

Who send inexperienced crews to front instead of training them?

 

The USSR, but this was hardly unique. Britain had sent inexperienced pilots into combat during the Battle of Britain, and Germany ended the war by throwing untrained men, women, and children against the Allies.

[Leon_Portier]

42 balanced tank set better be balanced