Nav Lights Issue/Bug/Exploit

[DBFlyguy]

I Fly Central did a pretty good and to the point video concerning this issue:

 

 

 

 

Hopefully the devs take note and get this taken care of asap @Jason_Williams

Edited March 16, 2021 by DBFlyguy

[=[TIA]=I-Fly-Central]

Thanks for posting this. Saves me having to make a post myself. Would love feedback on this from the devs. Seems it would be easier to fix than some of the other issue people general complain about. 

[CountZero]

There is couple of old posts complaining about this problem for years but as the problem benefits highly squadrons playing and using it to call for help or lure noobs, it aint gona atract many fuss like some other problems. There is even mod that makes nav lights look more natural, its veary hard to belive that this is so unfixable or even considered realistic as its since game was made, its more like its so low on priority of things to fix that it get skiped for so long, as i dont belive any of devs thinks this is how nav lights work on airplane in real life.

 

[GridiroN]

Everyone who's been around since the beginning knows the classic trick... see a plane flying around slow, at 2K, with his nav lights on...he has a friend at 4K waiting for you to take the bait. 

 

I've even seen it used offensively. Guy gets on your 6, turn your nav lights on, now the guy's thinking "crap, he must have a friend behind me, break off him!". Psychological warfare at it's best, lol...

[PB0_Roll]

Full support.

 

Associated complaint: tracers.

 

Broad daylight=short range visibility for tracers (few hundred meters, best case). In game, visible from miles away.

 

If you solve navlights exploit, people will still use tracers to get attention/help.

 

 

[Yogiflight]

1 hour ago, PB0_Roll said:

Broad daylight=short range visibility for tracers (few hundred meters, best case).

That is not correct at least for 20mm and larger caliber. I was shooting the 20mm of our IFV with HE at 2km and you clearly can see the tracers all the time.

[PB0_Roll]

I was indeed refering to small caliber guns. 

 

I'll be pretty happy with 1000m for .303/7.62, 1500 or 2000m for 12.7/13.0/.50 and up to 5kms for higher calibers (37mm and more), with 20mm somewhere in between.

 

Nearly 10km for 7.62 is however not satisfactory and can be used as an exploit, if/when navlights ever get fixed.

 

 

[Denum]

My personal favorite is how you can still see the bomb bay light on the A20 from miles away.

[Eisenfaustus]

On 3/16/2021 at 11:45 PM, Yogiflight said:

That is not correct at least for 20mm and larger caliber. I was shooting the 20mm of our IFV with HE at 2km and you clearly can see the tracers all the time.

And a happy dran drauf drüber to you too, Kamerad

 

But to be honest - I have no idea how WWII tracers really looked. 

 

I guess the composition of the tracer component also plays a decisive role...

 

But of course the calibre matters as well - I fired from 5,56 to 30 and it’s a difference as Night and day

[Yogiflight]

2 hours ago, Eisenfaustus said:

And a happy dran drauf drüber to you too, Kamerad

 

The same to you and always stay were the creeks flow

 

2 hours ago, Eisenfaustus said:

But to be honest - I have no idea how WWII tracers really looked. 

 

I guess the composition of the tracer component also plays a decisive role..

I would guess there shouldn't have been too large changes, but you are right, 'nix gwieß wäss ma net'

 

[gimpy117]

I do agree it need to be fixed.

 

on a side note, if you manage to slip past enemy air defenses in ground strike, you are immediately given away when you strafe ground targets, which is also another problem with the current system. 

[[DBS]TH0R]

This definitely needs fixing. It goes against all that was done in light of the realistic spotting currently implemented.

 

I do hope it gets fixed ASAP.

[DBFlyguy]

Does anyone know if the devs have acknowledged this as a bug?

[PB0_Roll]

Well it seems that, few months later, they didn't acknowledge nor fixed.

 

Guess it has a lower than low priority.

 

If you ever wonder why online servers are mostly empty, this bug is one of the causes, as far as I am concerned.

[Mtnbiker1998]

If you've ever used one of the mods that "fix" this issue, you'll notice it also breaks flares. Coincidently the three colors of flares we have (Red, white, green) also happen to be the same colors of our nav lights. The effects appear to be the same, and separating the two may be difficult depending on how its coded. 

[357th_KW]

I wonder if it wouldn’t be possible to create an option to disable nav lights on the server side.  They don’t serve a useful purpose on any daylight scenario, other than as an exploit.  Players can still use flares, wing waggles etc for communication or signaling.

[[DBS]TH0R]

1 hour ago, Mtnbiker1998 said:

If you've ever used one of the mods that "fix" this issue, you'll notice it also breaks flares. Coincidently the three colors of flares we have (Red, white, green) also happen to be the same colors of our nav lights. The effects appear to be the same, and separating the two may be difficult depending on how its coded. 

 

IIRC they were already toned down few patches ago, only to be "secretly" brightened again in one of the follow up patches.

Edited October 21, 2021 by [DBS]TH0R

[AEthelraedUnraed]

15 hours ago, PB0_Roll said:

If you ever wonder why online servers are mostly empty, this bug is one of the causes, as far as I am concerned.

You're joking, right?

[PB0_Roll]

Not the slightest.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

2 hours ago, PB0_Roll said:

Not the slightest.

I won't deny that the nav lights scale badly as the distance increases, or that this issue should be fixed at some point.

 

However, if you actually stopped playing online because of too bright nav lights, I think you really need to sort out your priorities.

[PB0_Roll]

I didn't stop playing online, I stopped playing in unmodded dogfight servers in which players abuse navlight exploit, and in which too visible tracers tracers affect my gameplay in the same way. Those I play with did the same.

[E69_Chipi]

I usually do not complaint too much about sim details, (like .50cal effectiveness, real life a/c performance and so on),

 

BUT

 

is it that difficult o make the navlights invisble during the day??? In broad daylight they are not visible. Period.

IMHO Devs are doing a great job with a million other details that are not so "exploitable" and potential immersion killers and  I would like to know their reason not to fix this, thas has been requested so many times because it is so damn obvious.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

14 hours ago, E69_Chipi said:

their reason not to fix this

Which they've stated a thousand times already, if not more. It's a small team with a limited budget, and last I checked their team was 9 people short. They're working on an improved fuel system, clouds, the recently released AQMG, Marshall Mode, overhauls of the damage system, AI improvements, countless bugfixes and last but not least the new aircraft/maps that have to pay for it all. I'm sure somewhere down the line the nav lights will be fixed, but they have plenty of other things to do in the meantime.

[PB0_Roll]

Game has had this "feature" for years. They will always have plenty to do, not enough people have complained about nav lights and started voting with their wallet, simple as that. Until then, they won't care, because fixing this does not bring obvious money.

[Talisman]

On 11/1/2021 at 10:37 PM, E69_Chipi said:

I usually do not complaint too much about sim details, (like .50cal effectiveness, real life a/c performance and so on),

 

BUT

 

is it that difficult o make the navlights invisble during the day??? In broad daylight they are not visible. Period.

IMHO Devs are doing a great job with a million other details that are not so "exploitable" and potential immersion killers and  I would like to know their reason not to fix this, thas has been requested so many times because it is so damn obvious.

 

Agree.  The nav lights are a total embarrassment.

 

So much good work from the dev team, but then embarrassing nav lights.  I can't make sense of it.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman 

[RFG_Hisl]

There was this mod. But I have never tried it.

 

[BCI-Nazgul]

Nice to fix, but I wouldn't say that I would consider it a high priority.   Lots of other things are more important to fix first.

[E69_Chipi]

On 11/3/2021 at 9:17 PM, BCI-Nazgul said:

Nice to fix, but I wouldn't say that I would consider it a high priority.   Lots of other things are more important to fix first.

do you play online? We all use them as an exploit. I guess there are SQNs with an SOP to use the lights in combat.

I do really consider that a much higher priority than adjusting the damage model of the .50 cal. But again, sadly it is just my opinion and apparently none of the most influential community members must have complaint about it.

Of course if you just play offline it is not a big deal. I just hate seeing a big furball in which half of the A/C turn their lights on and off simultaneously. It looks like a Xmas tree. Its just saddening,

,

On 11/2/2021 at 2:10 PM, AEthelraedUnraed said:

Which they've stated a thousand times already, if not more. It's a small team with a limited budget, and last I checked their team was 9 people short. They're working on an improved fuel system, clouds, the recently released AQMG, Marshall Mode, overhauls of the damage system, AI improvements, countless bugfixes and last but not least the new aircraft/maps that have to pay for it all. I'm sure somewhere down the line the nav lights will be fixed, but they have plenty of other things to do in the meantime.

again, its clear is a matter of priorities.
Whats really shocking for me is that this issue i such a low priority.
and do you really think that it would be so difficult to just make lights invisible over a certain amount of ambient light??? Because IRL thats what happens. Under MOST daylight conditions they are plainly invisible and now there just like... well you all know how they look like

 

On 11/3/2021 at 3:44 PM, RFG_Hisl said:

There was this mod. But I have never tried it.

 

main concern is multiplayer. Its a mod... I tried it and even in the mod the lights are visible at long distance during the day which IRL they are not.

Edited November 12, 2021 by E69_Chipi

[[DBS]TH0R]

18 hours ago, E69_Chipi said:

do you play online? We all use them as an exploit. I guess there are SQNs with an SOP to use the lights in combat.

 

I agree that this is more of a MP problem than in SP. Perhaps this is why it doesn't get as much attention. Although it definitely should IMHO.

Edited November 13, 2021 by [DBS]TH0R

[RFG_Hisl]

The solution for MP is easy.

Dont use them as an exploit.

Stop turning on [edited]  navlights on landing approach 10km from the airfield.

Ostracise the lightcheaters. ?

There are some things we could really do ourselves.

Edited November 13, 2021 by SYN_Haashashin
Language

[BCI-Nazgul]

On 11/12/2021 at 11:07 AM, E69_Chipi said:

do you play online? We all use them as an exploit. I guess there are SQNs with an SOP to use the lights in combat.

I do really consider that a much higher priority than adjusting the damage model of the .50 cal. But again, sadly it is just my opinion and apparently none of the most influential community members must have complaint about it.

Of course if you just play offline it is not a big deal. I just hate seeing a big furball in which half of the A/C turn their lights on and off simultaneously. It looks like a Xmas tree. Its just saddening,

,

again, its clear is a matter of priorities.
Whats really shocking for me is that this issue i such a low priority.
and do you really think that it would be so difficult to just make lights invisible over a certain amount of ambient light??? Because IRL thats what happens. Under MOST daylight conditions they are plainly invisible and now there just like... well you all know how they look like

 

main concern is multiplayer. Its a mod... I tried it and even in the mod the lights are visible at long distance during the day which IRL they are not.

I do play online and if you have any experience online you know that the lights could be a lure or maybe someone trying to get help or simply people using them to show their friends where they are OR maybe even so people can tell your coming in a for a landing (shocking I know.)   As far as I'm concerned they are not really a problem because it's pretty easy to determine why they are on and you always have a choice about whether or not to go after a lit plane.   They are just a ton of things that are FAR more important to fix for both online play and single play as well.  My biggest one now is the ability of some planes to roll around, porpoise and just do plainly impossible manuevers to dodge enemy fire.   I've seen 190's doing stuff that would make Patty Wagstaff in an Extra 300 look like a noob.  Things that would scramble a pilot's brain besides tearing the aircraft apart and that was after MANY .50s hits no less.   I wish I would have made a video.

Edited November 15, 2021 by BCI-Nazgul

[HR_Zunzun]

On 11/14/2021 at 5:47 AM, BCI-Nazgul said:

I do play online and if you have any experience online you know that the lights could be a lure or maybe someone trying to get help or simply people using them to show their friends where they are OR maybe even so people can tell your coming in a for a landing (shocking I know.)   As far as I'm concerned they are not really a problem because it's pretty easy to determine why they are on and you always have a choice about whether or not to go after a lit plane.   They are just a ton of things that are FAR more important to fix for both online play and single play as well.  My biggest one now is the ability of some planes to roll around, porpoise and just do plainly impossible manuevers to dodge enemy fire.   I've seen 190's doing stuff that would make Patty Wagstaff in an Extra 300 look like a noob.  Things that would scramble a pilot's brain besides tearing the aircraft apart and that was after MANY .50s hits no less.   I wish I would have made a video.

Is it so difficult to fix the light intensity? I am sure there could be some stop gap solutions. This demand has been on the forums for many years now.

And in MP it is an exploit not just a nuisnance. When you have an enemy isolated and he can put the light on and all of a sudden became conspicous to any plane many miles away it is an exploit. He can get instantaneous vectoring directions with the flick of a finger, while with more realistic nav lights he would still struggle to locate himsefl and give directions while dogging the bullets.

Edited November 16, 2021 by HR_Zunzun

[[DBS]TH0R]

6 hours ago, HR_Zunzun said:

Is it so difficult to fix the light intensity? I am sure there could be some stop gap solutions. This demand has been on the forums for many years now.

And in MP it is an exploit not just a nuisnance. When you have an enemy isolated and he can put the light on and all of a sudden became conspicous to any plane many miles away it is an exploit. He can get instantaneous vectoring directions with the flick of a finger, while with more realistic nav lights he would still struggle to locate himsefl and give directions while dogging the bullets.

 

That is by far the biggest problem in MP with this bug. In MP it is an exploit.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

On 11/12/2021 at 8:07 PM, E69_Chipi said:

again, its clear is a matter of priorities.
Whats really shocking for me is that this issue i such a low priority.

A lot of the things they're working on are either new content or directly related to it (e.g. the new fuel system) or important to improve their market position (e.g. the clouds, as their current implementation isn't really up-to-par to its competitors). Those three categories are necessary to obtain the cash flow needed to even remotely think about fixing nav lights. I find nothing shocking about that at all.

 

On 11/12/2021 at 8:07 PM, E69_Chipi said:

and do you really think that it would be so difficult to just make lights invisible over a certain amount of ambient light??? Because IRL thats what happens. Under MOST daylight conditions they are plainly invisible and now there just like... well you all know how they look like

Why do you assume it's easy? As you say, they're nearly invisible under most daylight conditions, but not all. That means that you have to create a material/effect that differs between time of day, weather and other subtleties such as cloud and sun positions. Frankly, that doesn't sound trivial at all. Furthermore, I have no idea about how hardcoded their current implementation is, and what would need to be changed to fix the navlights. Unless you're a Developer, I assume you don’t either, so please don't make unfounded claims about how easy it might be to fix.

[PB0_Roll]

42 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

Why do you assume it's easy?

Because modders already did it ?

 

Not perfectly, but much, much better than what we have in stock game ?

[Mtnbiker1998]

49 minutes ago, PB0_Roll said:

Because modders already did it ?

 

Not perfectly, but much, much better than what we have in stock game ?

They did it and they broke the flares, because they use the same effect. Hardly a "perfect" fix considering flares are used pretty often in the singleplayer content (which we've already determined is far higher priority than multiplayer.)

[CountZero]

Then simple solution, just remove nav lights untill have time to do it properly, clod dont have them from start and no one complains or ask for them, nav lights are useless no one would care if they are gone.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

44 minutes ago, Mtnbiker1998 said:

They did it and they broke the flares, because they use the same effect. Hardly a "perfect" fix considering flares are used pretty often in the singleplayer content (which we've already determined is far higher priority than multiplayer.)

Precisely this is an example of what I mean with how hardcoded it is. Just as an example, if their current implementation of flares is as an AI-less "vehicle" with attached nav lights, that means that not only they'd have to create a new nav light effect, but also completely redo the flare system (not that I think it is, but we shouldn't assume it's simple just because modders have made a partially working -and partially flawed - implementation).

[Mtnbiker1998]

26 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

Precisely this is an example of what I mean with how hardcoded it is. Just as an example, if their current implementation of flares is as an AI-less "vehicle" with attached nav lights, that means that not only they'd have to create a new nav light effect, but also completely redo the flare system (not that I think it is, but we shouldn't assume it's simple just because modders have made a partially working -and partially flawed - implementation).

I think its probably more along the lines of the implementation of nav lights is Flares strapped to a plane's wing (I think something like this is the more likely answer, since the WW1 RoF engine probably didn't have nav lights.) Its pretty much impossible to fix nav lights without also breaking flares unless theres a significant amount of recoding done.

 

If it was an easy fix it would have been fixed.

[LukeFF]

58 minutes ago, Mtnbiker1998 said:

I think its probably more along the lines of the implementation of nav lights is Flares strapped to a plane's wing (I think something like this is the more likely answer, since the WW1 RoF engine probably didn't have nav lights.) Its pretty much impossible to fix nav lights without also breaking flares unless theres a significant amount of recoding done.

 

If it was an easy fix it would have been fixed.

 

There is one plane in ROF that has navigation lights (the Handley Page bomber), but yeah, they are very rare in that game. I'm sure they'll get around to improving then sooner rather than later.