The case for France 1940

[PatrickAWlson]

Taken from the HS123 thread but intended to target a full module rather than s specific plane.  Thanks to @Eisenfaustus for sparking this.

 

Battle of the Sedan!

 

Planes: 

Spitfire Mk I (Not used that much in France but necessary for later scenarios.  Also, it's a Spitfire)

Hurricane MK I

Bloch MN 151

Bristol Blenheim

Curtis Hawk or D.520 (Collector)

 

Me 109 E3

Me 110 C

Ju 87B

Do 17

HS123 (Collector)

 

Map:

Sedan area

 

Why:

Western front 1940 to 1945 all with one more module.

The planes of 1940 are interesting and in many cases rarely done.  

The planes offer a good mix of new and planes that leverage existing models.

Five all new planes.  Five derivative of existing planes. 

Ju87B , HS 123, and to a lesser extent the Do 17 can be used in Russia as well. 

Adding a Sedan map would be useful not just for 1940 but also 1944.

Done right, the planes would allow an ersatz Battle of Britain campaign using the Normandy map.

Dunkirk evacuation could also be done.

Spitfire and Hurricane along with Blenheim (really interesting plane) can be used for post France operations. 

[Eisenfaustus]

obviously I love this proposal!

 

This would be an instant preorder for me. 
 

However I‘d switch the Curtiss and the Spit to include a french fighter in the standard setup. Or exchange the spit for a MS 406 and add the Spit I as a separate premium plane later

[ITAF_Airone1989]

Sedan could also be good for FC 

[PatrickAWlson]

6 minutes ago, Eisenfaustus said:

obviously I love this proposal!

 

This would be an instant preorder for me. 
 

However I‘d switch the Curtiss and the Spit to include a french fighter in the standard setup. Or exchange the spit for a MS 406 and add the Spit I as a separate premium plane later

 

Reasons to include the Spitfire:

Useful  for matchups beyond France. 

Spitfire I is the iconic BoB Spitfire

MP players would want their Spitfire vs Me109 E matchups. 

The Spitfire was in France. 

The Spitfire should be a easier build. 

I think it would be a tough sell without the Spitfire

 

Reasons against:

Something called Battle of France should have more French planes.

A French plane would be more unique

 

But I get your point.  I wouldn't care too much how a Spitfire is incorporated as long as it got there.

[MasterBaiter]

Battle of Sedan not "The Sedan"

 

Also it would need way more french aircrafts from Morane Saulnier, Potez or Lioré et Olivier..

 

Spitfire and Blenheim shouldn't be there even tho I would love to see them in the sim.

Edited March 3, 2021 by JG300_Winterz

[Redwo1f]

You had me at Curtis Hawk ?

(would love to see it in a relevant fashion in this sim sometime - and that is quite an interesting proposal too - I like it ?)

-- regarding any future GBS ventures, however, it will be interesting to see where the CLOD group go next (as I doubt there will be any overlap between titles in the plans -- well perhaps better stated that they won't compete directly) - and I believe they will be up first with that series' announcement before IL2 GBS (or so it looks in the tea leaves ?- apparently already known, just not announced yet)

Edited March 4, 2021 by Redwo1f

[PatrickAWlson]

1 hour ago, JG300_Winterz said:

Spitfire and Blenheim shouldn't be there even tho I would love to see them in the sim.

 

They were there.  

[Beazil]

Ms406 and/or dewo.  If we toss BOB in then add the E4 when proper.  Same with E1.  Love it.

[Mac_Messer]

BoB would be a great interim title, though there should be bomber flights so not ideal for this engine.

It is #3 for me after Italy `43 and Smolensk `42 scenarios and most definitely better than late war.

[Charon]

I agree. This would be an instant pre-order for me, although I would like to see more French planes.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

6 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

Taken from the HS123 thread but intended to target a full module rather than s specific plane.  Thanks to @Eisenfaustus for sparking this.

 

Battle of the Sedan!

 

Planes: 

Spitfire Mk I (Not used that much in France but necessary for later scenarios.  Also, it's a Spitfire)

Hurricane MK I

Bloch MN 151

Bristol Blenheim

Curtis Hawk or D.520 (Collector)

 

Me 109 E3

Me 110 C

Ju 87B

Do 17

HS123 (Collector)

 

Map:

Sedan area

 

Why:

Western front 1940 to 1945 all with one more module.

The planes of 1940 are interesting and in many cases rarely done.  

The planes offer a good mix of new and planes that leverage existing models.

Five all new planes.  Five derivative of existing planes. 

Ju87B , HS 123, and to a lesser extent the Do 17 can be used in Russia as well. 

Adding a Sedan map would be useful not just for 1940 but also 1944.

Done right, the planes would allow an ersatz Battle of Britain campaign using the Normandy map.

Dunkirk evacuation could also be done.

Spitfire and Hurricane along with Blenheim (really interesting plane) can be used for post France operations. 

 

Our Hurricane is not substantially different than a Mk I and can stand in for it reasonably well. I'd keep both the Hawk and the D. 520 instead. Dump the Bloch and substitute a Potez fast bomber. That Blenheim better be the flat glass version as well. Unfortunately a quick Wiki read indicated Blenheim's over France were probably Mk IV's.

[Cybermat47]

The Battle of France is a very interesting scenario. Doing research for CloD’s D.520 campaign, On Ne Passé Pas!, made me interested in the potential for future expansions/games 

 

Moranes and the Hs-123 would be especially interesting to fly, I think.

Edited March 4, 2021 by [Pb]Cybermat47

[ww2fighter20]

France 1940 would give the unique opportunity to include the twin blade Hurricane's.

[Eisenfaustus]

7 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

The Spitfire was in France. 

It flew over Dunkirk and that’s basically it‘s whole contribution to the battle of France. No Spits were stationed beyond the channel 1940.

 

But yes - the Spit is an iconic plane and would have a larger Fantasie then a MS406

 

For career it could be included like the Anton was in BoS - speaks for premium rather then standard though. 

 

1 hour ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

 

Our Hurricane is not substantially different than a Mk I and can stand in for it reasonably well. I'd keep both the Hawk and the D. 520 instead. Dump the Bloch and substitute a Potez fast bomber. That Blenheim better be the flat glass version as well. Unfortunately a quick Wiki read indicated Blenheim's over France were probably Mk IV's.

 

As said above the Hurricanes in France had two bladed propellers. Yes the mark II can stand in like the 109 E7 could stand in for the E3 - but that‘ll be a compromise that hasn’t been done yet for career. 

[Charon]

One point in favor of the MS 406 and the Curtis Hawk is that both were used by the Finns, and could easily fit in Continuation War scenarios.

[MasterBaiter]

7 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

They were there.  

Still few of them compared to french aircrafts.

[migmadmarine]

Curtiss Hawk, Hurricane mk.I, blenheim, Do-17 could be used by the Finns too. Making an MS.406 would be useful for both too. 

Edited March 4, 2021 by migmadmarine

[CaptainFlemme]

I dream of this one

 

I know Pat that you love it, but I would remove the Spitfire - it could (and should) be a collector plane out of a normal BoX module though.

 

My proposal for Allies :

MS406 (to have a French fighter, and useful for Finns & the potential Karelia Map)

Hurricane MkI or Gladiator (to have a RAF fighter, useful for BoB and Finns)

Potez 630 / 631 / 637 (to have a French Twin, useful for Romanian scenarios in BOM/BOS/BOK)

Bleinheim MkI or IV (to have a RAF Bomber, useful for Finns and 1941 channel missions)

Collector : Hawk 75 (A3 / A4) : just because it's the handsomest Curtiss  (and it's mandatory for a proper Battle of France, useful for Finns)

[HBPencil]

Certainly an interesting idea, from the OP it sounds like you want more than one map (e.g. Sedan and northern France/Belgium)? If the the devs stick with just one which should we roll with?

Re the Spitfire MkI, there were no fighters based in France however there was a small number of PR variants based both in northern and southern France, unarmed but when things went sideways some were partially re-armed (4xmg) and pushed into TacR missions. The French had one Spit for evaluation and RAF Spits did visit once or twice I think.

By the time the fighting started the two bladed fixed pitch prop on the Hurri and Spit was gone, they were using three bladed metal DH variable pitch props (so only two pitch settings were available to the pilot, fine and coarse). However field trials of Rotol (and I think DH?) constant speed units were happening so I guess they could be options in the mods list.

I'd certainly like to see the Blenheim IV, used on many fronts during the war so could work well in other future expansions e.g. MTO or Burma.

[LuftManu]

That would be a really cool scenario. Also, usable with Normandy map in the future for a "BOB".

[II./JG77_Manu*]

I would love the Battle of France as a scenario, but as others said already, with actual French aircraft and maybe one British as premium, but not more. 

Edited March 4, 2021 by II./JG77_Manu*

[jeanba]

The Bloch would be the "152", not the "151".

We do not need the Spitfire.

A Breguet 693 (instead of Potez 63...) and Morane 406 would be needed as they were involved over Sedan.

10 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

Reasons to include the Spitfire:

Useful  for matchups beyond France. 

Spitfire I is the iconic BoB Spitfire

MP players would want their Spitfire vs Me109 E matchups. 

The Spitfire was in France. 

The Spitfire should be a easier build. 

I think it would be a tough sell without the Spitfire

 

Reasons against:

Something called Battle of France should have more French planes.

A French plane would be more unique

 

But I get your point.  I wouldn't care too much how a Spitfire is incorporated as long as it got there.

As you describe it, the spit would be good as a "stand alone collector plane" (like Hurricane II, Yak-9 ...), but not in the "core Battle Over Sedan")

[Alexmarine]

>Battle of France

 

>Sedan area

 

>Only two planes are french (and one is a collector too because a Spitfire has to be shovelled in)

 

I am not even french but the only thing I would say to such a proposal is: merde

 

Now, for a proper allied plane set:

 

1) Morane-Saulnier 406

2) Hurricane Mk.I (DH prop, maybe Rotol prop as mod)

3)Hawk 75

4)Fairey Battle

5)Breguet 693 or Potez 631

 

Much better, don't you agree? We can even drop the two British planes for good to add a Bloch 152 (the actual production model you know) and the Potez 631 as the heavy fighter, make the H-75 the collector plane and voilà. Not wasting an entire module only to have a faux Battle of Britain ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SYN_Vander]

Would be an insta-buy for me as well!

 

The German plane set is no-brainer. But I have to agree with others that the Spitfire I should be a collector's plane (and it would be a best-seller!).

I absolutely love the Hawk75 so I would like to see that one included, but of course a Bloch or Dewoitine should be in there as well.

A French medium bomber would be great (although they are weird  ).

 

About maps::

https://www.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=48d3ca2e241b43f69084851c27ba93d5&extent=351328.8353%2C6620384.8767%2C644847.0239%2C6748951.9583%2C102100

 

There are a couple of French planes on that map, so we could do May 1940 Low Countries as well

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by SYN_Vander

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

You are probably gonna need the Brit crates to keep sales competitive. The Spit is a HUGE draw despite it's limited numbers in the campaign. As to the prop configuration on the Hurricane, I don't see that as anything significant except the to most ardent of purists. I would like to see the E3 over the E7 for the simple reason of manual prop control. It's one of the few things I really enjoyed in the early days of CloD and makes it unique in the 109 world.

[jeanba]

Honnestly, it would be more logical to have Battle Of France as part of CloDo than BoX anyway

[Chief_Mouser]

As much as the Battle of France is intriguing I'd rather not see another scenario with another variation of the Bodenplatte and Normandy maps. Where (and if) there is another full module coming after BoN let's go somewhere else. Murmansk, Finland, Epirus or Malta/Sicily get my vote. Epirus has the most interesting plane set, Malta/Sicily has two different scenarios but both of them feature Italian planes. Let's have something totally new please if we can't have the Pacific.

[jeanba]

If you talk about the french planeset BoF is totally new and original !

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

37 minutes ago, 216th_Cat said:

As much as the Battle of France is intriguing I'd rather not see another scenario with another variation of the Bodenplatte and Normandy maps. Where (and if) there is another full module coming after BoN let's go somewhere else. Murmansk, Finland, Epirus or Malta/Sicily get my vote. Epirus has the most interesting plane set, Malta/Sicily has two different scenarios but both of them feature Italian planes. Let's have something totally new please if we can't have the Pacific.

 

With using the same map, it could be a good money maker for the devs to just produce planes for a shorter design cycle and still essentially give us something new. Map team could still get paid for improving current maps and tech on a short cycle. France is probably a pretty good option for a nine to twelve month cycle as opposed to the current fourteen to eighteen month cycle we are currently in.

 

It would allow a room to plot the next strategic move from the Dev's.........psst, Solomons. I actually see us headed to closeout the Eastern Front somewhere in the next two cycles. It could be next actually. Italy to me is at least as interesting as France, as well, but that would be a big design cycle with the map considerations.

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by II/JG17_HerrMurf

[DBFlyguy]

Battle of France would be cool and would stick to getting closer to finishing up the possibility of a full Western Front career but would we really be able to use the same map if we went that era? The defenses and infrastructure on the English and French coasts were substantially different by 1944 compared to 1940. But if we got new aircraft via collector planes releases regardless of having a full out, "Battle of France" with map, career etc release, I'd support it!

[von_Tom]

 

This is a great idea though I'd have the Spit I as a collector's aircraft - it was used but not very much and mainly for recon.  The most beautiful aircraft ever made.

 

 

 

von Tom

 

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by von_Tom

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

2 hours ago, DBFlyguy said:

Battle of France would be cool and would stick to getting closer to finishing up the possibility of a full Western Front career but would we really be able to use the same map if we went that era? The defenses and infrastructure on the English and French coasts were substantially different by 1944 compared to 1940. But if we got new aircraft via collector planes releases regardless of having a full out, "Battle of France" with map, career etc release, I'd support it!

 

I think modifying existing map tiles would be much easier than starting from scratch.

[DBFlyguy]

18 minutes ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

 

I think modifying existing map tiles would be much easier than starting from scratch.

Yeah, good point!

[PatrickAWlson]

If we were only talking about a historical recreation of France 1940 then no doubt another French plane would be more appropriate than the Spitfire.  My reasoning for including the Spitfire factors in sales, ease of build, and further use beyond the module.  These considerations have obviously been thrown into the mix in the past.  Both sides of the argument are IMHO valid.

30 minutes ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

 

I think modifying existing map tiles would be much easier than starting from scratch.

 

In a way they have two head starts.  The Normandy map is going to have some of the locations  up to current standards.  The RoF Channel map is going to have quite a bit more, but not nearly up to Normandy standards.  Honestly no idea if the Channel map would give the team any leverage at all but here's hoping it would.

 

Last but not least, further development along the channel would be usable by FC as well.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

I'm not a fan of including the Spitfire because it was not present in those battles, so it's a spot that can be occupied by another plane that did take part.

One nice bomber we could have: the LeO 451


 

[Talisman]

BoF a total waste of time.  Forget it.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[Tuesday]

7 minutes ago, ACG_Talisman said:

BoF a total waste of time.  Forget it.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

 

Riveting argument! 

 

An interesting scenario with unique aircraft.  As much as I'd love for a Spitfire... I'd rather see French aircraft.  That LeO 451 looks awesome. 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

1 hour ago, ACG_Talisman said:

BoF a total waste of time.  Forget it.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

 

Must have had too much sand in the sandwich. We are here for the fun!

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

I really wouldn't be interested in France or BoB again now that we have Bodenplatte and Normandy (channel map and can do BOB scenarios with better planes). For me, it is Pacific or bust. We have too much eastern front also. I have played so many BoB and BoF scenarios over the years in 1946 and CoD that it would be redundant.

[BraveSirRobin]

19 hours ago, Charon said:

One point in favor of the MS 406 and the Curtis Hawk is that both were used by the Finns, and could easily fit in Continuation War scenarios.

A scenario that almost certainly will never happen.

 

A BoF module needs the Spitfire or it won’t sell enough copies.