Attack Areas - In a town is it better to have one big one or lots of little ones?

[DD_Friar]

Salute

I am currently building a mission with tanks entering a town. Its squad dogfight map player v AI.

 

I currently have the town under a single MCU Attack Area set to High that covers the whole town and all the AI units in the town object linked from the Attack Zone.

I am finding some of the units a little slow to respond when a tank comes round the corner.

 

Does any one know (I know I should just try it myself but was wondering if anyone else has been there before me) if I would get better response times from the AI if I had them linked to smaller, localised attack zones?

 

Any advice / guidance much appreciated.

 

Cheers

Friar

[Gambit21]

There are so many variables, including relative altitude between the attacker and ground, beginning direction, wind direction.

 

Attack zone size is the least of it.

[DD_Friar]

My issue is just for tanks and AI ground units, but I understand the complexity for aircraft. I am just trying to get a quicker response say from the German halftrack or Marder when a Sherman comes round the corner.

[Jaegermeister]

You may want to consider keeping your AI vehicles moving between waypoints set to medium or low priority and only trigger an Attack Area for them when you want them to stop and shoot it out. Then deactivate it with a force complete and activate a new waypoint. With WP priority set to low, the AI will defend themselves and not move. With WP medium, they will shoot, move, shoot and move. With WP high, they will ignore the threat.

 

There is a time delay for the ground vehicles from when they spot an enemy until when they fire that appears to be around 30 seconds. The German Tanks used to hit their target on the first shot most of the time and reload and traverse almost instantly. That has been adjusted and now depends on AI level. The Russian vehicles reload slower due to mechanical limitations.

 

If you want the tanks to fire faster and hit more often, put them on high or ace AI level. Your attack area size will not affect it.

 

@Gambit21 you might find that useful in upcoming missions as well. ?

 

 

Edited March 3, 2021 by Jaegermeister

[Gambit21]

Thanks Jay.

I completely misread the post and was thinking aircraft.

[DD_Friar]

All of my units are stationary so waypoints are not an issue.

 

I think I probably goofed a bit as well due to my original test. Although I created a single attack zone and object linked it to all the Ai, I forget to enable it with a Mission Begin MCU, so its was probably just the individual units detecting the player tank and opening fire.

[Jaegermeister]

4 hours ago, DD_Friar said:

I think I probably goofed a bit as well due to my original test. Although I created a single attack zone and object linked it to all the Ai, I forget to enable it with a Mission Begin MCU, so its was probably just the individual units detecting the player tank and opening fire.

 

Yes, you would need to trigger the Attack Area MCU with something. Timer, Waypoint, Checkzone, etc.

 

It is my understanding that the vehicle AI has a defense reaction built in. I don't know that you will get any more reaction out of them with a medium priority Attack Area MCU than you would get without one, but you can use waypoints and Attack Area priorities to decrease their reaction if you need to. A stationary tank should defend its self with no Attack MCU. I have been told that a Force Complete command will insure that it does. I have not tested it recently and there have been a few AI updates that apply to tanks since I did. 

 

A high priority Attack Area will probably get a response the same as a low priority waypoint would and vice versa.  

[Gambit21]

If I want a stationary tank to defend itself, (or any stationary anything to fire) I always use a Force Complete MCU. It’s can be either necessary, or an added layer of insurance to get the proper behavior.

[Jaegermeister]

41 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

If I want a stationary tank to defend itself, (or any stationary anything to fire) I always use a Force Complete MCU.

 

Exactly. According to what I've heard, that is how it's designed to work. Tanks, Artillery, Machine Guns, etc.

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Jaegermeister

[DD_Friar]

I have just looked up the notes on the Force Complete MCU but do not understand how this will get a stationery unit to start an attack?

 

Would anyone be able to explain please the sequence of MCU's for a stationery (eg Pak 38 or Halftrack etc) unit if I want it to attack a players tank?

 

At the moment I have one big Attack Zone, triggered by a Mission begin MCU, set to High with an attack duration set to 999 and object linked to all the AI units. The AI units are all set to High.

 

If I use the Force Complete, am I basically telling it to stop doing nothing.....and start doing something (attack the player)?

 

Many thanks for your advise and guidance on this.

Edited March 5, 2021 by DD_Friar

[Gambit21]

7 hours ago, DD_Friar said:

 

 

If I use the Force Complete, am I basically telling it to stop doing nothing.....and start doing something (attack the player)?

 

Many thanks for your advise and guidance on this.

 

 

Yep.

Force Complete "Low" is basically, "do your thing"

So for an AA gun you'd trigger the attack area, then my method is a second later trigger the Force Complete MCU object linked to the gun/s etc.

I think Jaeger does away with any delays and triggers everything simultaneously. I generally stick with short safety interval between things out of old habit "just in case"

basis. 

 

 

 

Force Complete "High" clears all previous instructions. I use it along with deactivating an attack area, and sending an aircraft on it's way after (RTB for instance) after attacking. So I'd deactivate the Attack MCU, then trigger Force Complete 'High', then trigger the RTB waypoint (set to High).

[SCG_Schneemann]

I seem to remember Coconut (or someone) saying that he didn't even use the attack areas as you are essentially "sleeping" a unit until someone enters the area. With just a force complete, the guns should fire when they feel threatened. This allows them to fire at their optimal to maximum range instead of the distance you set, good for artillery type things, and mg's. Although if it's an ambush scenario, or in a town, you might want them to "hold their fire" and set an attack area to hopefully ensure they don't fire like goons at the first rabbit they see.

[Gambit21]

I often use just Force Complete with ground units. However there may be a circumstance where you want to control/script things more tightly.

[DD_Friar]

I will do a test, have two AI units side by side of the same type, one controlled by an attack area, the other with a Force Complete and see which one fires first.

Many thanks.

[No_85_Gramps]

I have a mission where 8 PZIII's travel along a forested road and move into an open field to deal with two AT guns. When one gun gets destroyed, 3 Shermans spawn in on the flank of the PZIII's. Second AT gun get destroyed and the panzers and shermans go at it. Sometimes the panzers win, sometimes the shermans win. This is w/o any attack area and/or force complete commands. They just rely on their built in logic I guess. What surprised me was how random the battle unfolds. Now, the AT guns never fire, I'm still experimenting with them and will try a force complete with them.

[Gambit21]

13 minutes ago, DD_Friar said:

I will do a test, have two AI units side by side of the same type, one controlled by an attack area, the other with a Force Complete and see which one fires first.

Many thanks.

 

Remeber it’s not as much when they fire, as much as where they fire. With Force Complete only the AI will make it's own decision. This may or may not matter depending on your disposition of units etc. I use small attack areas to keep ground units on the same side from crossing fire for a example.

[DD_Friar]

So I have just done a test. My unit with the force complete did not open fire at all.

 

I have

mission begin

target linked to

Force Complete (I have tried it set to high and low and also ticked "emergency ord" which I assume to be emergency order (the remainder of the text does not display as it is clipped)

object linked to

German Halftrack (with single machine gun)

 

the unit has clear line of sight to the tank but does not fire.

the same unit parked right next to it which is linked to an attack area open fires fine.

[Gambit21]

Can you post a screenshot of your logic?

I’ve never seen Force Complete by itself not work - so something is up.

[Jaegermeister]

1 hour ago, DD_Friar said:

I have tried it set to high and low and also ticked "emergency ord" which I assume to be emergency order (the remainder of the text does not display as it is clipped)

 

I am at work ATM but I can tell you that the above check box is "emergency ordnance drop". If you clear an attack area ground attack command with that checked, the flight will drop their bombs and presumably return to base. "Rejoin formation and continue with the mission" according to the radio call. They will actually do whatever you specify next. That was added to keep AI from returning to base with their bombs and dropping them when they enter the landing pattern.

 

You guys are getting into some tricky stuff here. To start with, the complex vehicles behave differently than the simple vehicles. Complex vehicles are the ones you can occupy with the underscore before their name in the list. They have a different AI routine.

 

All of them have a built in defense reaction so they should fire when threatened. You can see if they detect a threat by pointing them to the side and if the gun or turret traverses, they detected a threat. 

 

When I spawn a stationary vehicle, I trigger a force complete at the same time and then trigger an attack area MCU 1 second after. Some will fire without the Attack Area, others will not. They all will fire with a properly set up attack area linked and triggered. With moving vehicles, an attack area is only necessary if you want them to stop for some reason or you want to direct their fire at a particular point.

 

Complex AI Tank Destroyers appear to still have some issues. That needs more testing.

[SYN_Vander]

3 minutes ago, Jaegermeister said:

 

I am at work ATM but I can tell you that the above check box is "emergency ordnance drop". If you clear an attack area ground attack command with that checked, the flight will drop their bombs and presumably return to base. "Rejoin formation and continue with the mission" according to the radio call. They will actually do whatever you specify next. That was added to keep AI from returning to base with their bombs and dropping them when they enter the landing pattern.

 

You guys are getting into some tricky stuff here. To start with, the complex vehicles behave differently than the simple vehicles. Complex vehicles are the ones you can occupy with the underscore before their name in the list. They have a different AI routine.

 

All of them have a built in defense reaction so they should fire when threatened. You can see if they detect a threat by pointing them to the side and if the gun or turret traverses, they detected a threat. 

 

When I spawn a stationary vehicle, I trigger a force complete at the same time and then trigger an attack area MCU 1 second after. Some will fire without the Attack Area, others will not. They all will fire with a properly set up attack area linked and triggered. With moving vehicles, an attack area is only necessary if you want them to stop for some reason or you want to direct their fire at a particular point.

 

Complex AI Tank Destroyers appear to still have some issues. That needs more testing.

 

Can confirm. Only came across the real name of this attribute when I had to add it to my code for the mission generator

 

    MCU_CMD_ForceComplete
    {
      Index = 5618;
      Name = "command Force Complete";
      Desc = "";
      Targets = [];
      Objects = [5614,5606,5610];
      XPos = 177741.471;
      YPos = 0.000;
      ZPos = 175017.034;
      XOri = 0.00;
      YOri = 0.00;
      ZOri = 0.00;
      Priority = 2;
      EmergencyOrdnanceDrop = 0;
    }

[DD_Friar]

18 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

You guys are getting into some tricky stuff here. To start with, the complex vehicles behave differently than the simple vehicles. Complex vehicles are the ones you can occupy with the underscore before their name in the list. They have a different AI routine.

 

All of them have a built in defense reaction so they should fire when threatened. You can see if they detect a threat by pointing them to the side and if the gun or turret traverses, they detected a threat. 

MIND BLOWN!

When I started mission building about a year ago now (mainly after I bough Tank Crew) I built a simple test mission where I had used those tanks with the underscore as an AI tank. I had a problem in that they did not want to fire at the player tanks advancing on them.

I posted in the forums and was advised that these units were for use by players only, so from that day to this I have never used them for AI units.

 

 

[Gambit21]

7 hours ago, DD_Friar said:

MIND BLOWN!

When I started mission building about a year ago now (mainly after I bough Tank Crew) I built a simple test mission where I had used those tanks with the underscore as an AI tank. I had a problem in that they did not want to fire at the player tanks advancing on them.

I posted in the forums and was advised that these units were for use by players only, so from that day to this I have never used them for AI units.

 

 

 

They work great for AI - but they are expensive on resources. So they have to be used carefully. (especially in aircraft missions where generally it’s best to steer clear)

[Jaegermeister]

7 hours ago, DD_Friar said:

MIND BLOWN!

When I started mission building about a year ago now (mainly after I bough Tank Crew) I built a simple test mission where I had used those tanks with the underscore as an AI tank. I had a problem in that they did not want to fire at the player tanks advancing on them.

I posted in the forums and was advised that these units were for use by players only, so from that day to this I have never used them for AI units.

The Complex Vehicles do take more resources than the simple ones, but there is no reason you can't use them. They have fixed all the problems with the AI behavior that I am aware of except the Tank Destroyers won't fire on targets beyond 1000 meters. Not too many people seem overly concerned with that yet, but it should be on a list somewhere.

 

Gambit, That's ironic I was just typing the same thing when you posted.