Air Revenge Killing?

[ShampooX]

So I’ve gotten on the Finnish Served and notched my first few kills.   The immersion is intense.  I notice however that shortly after a kill usually  I’m attacked by a plane.  Tonight I had a textbook position on a hill about 30m back in from the tree line. Lots of tree cover.   I hit T34 at the CP and withIn a couple minutes was taking accurate aerial cannon fire.  I was in excellent top cover from the trees.   My engine  was off so no exhaust.  It was either amazing team comms or an air revenge kill.   Air revenge kills are a big reason I ditched WT and came here.  I hope that’s not what this was. That would be a bummer. 

[JG27_Steini]

23 minutes ago, 11thPanzer_Pete said:

So I’ve gotten on the Finnish Served and notched my first few kills.   The immersion is intense.  I notice however that shortly after a kill usually  I’m attacked by a plane.  Tonight I had a textbook position on a hill about 30m back in from the tree line. Lots of tree cover.   I hit T34 at the CP and withIn a couple minutes was taking accurate aerial cannon fire.  I was in excellent top cover from the trees.   My engine  was off so no exhaust.  It was either amazing team comms or an air revenge kill.   Air revenge kills are a big reason I ditched WT and came here.  I hope that’s not what this was. That would be a bummer. 

 

Probably it was. There is no punishment when dying. You can select an airplane and come back. This is a server setting. After a fight you should leave your position. Finish server is a good one, but fighting in a tank on an airplane server is always deadly.

[Denum]

Whats your in game tag? You can search on Finnish and see your sortie 

[ShampooX]

Thanks Denum.  Same as my name here. So you are saying you can replay the mission video?  

[No_Face]

7 hours ago, 11thPanzer_Pete said:

Air revenge kills are a big reason I ditched WT and came here.  I hope that’s not what this was. That would be a bummer. 

I don't think I've ever been a victim of air revenge. I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, I'm just saying that my personal experience would tend to say that no, air revenge is not a common thing.

[Denum]

http://ts3.virtualpilots.fi:8000/en/tankman_sorties/20472/11thPanzer_Pete/?tour=40

 

No video unless you recorded it, but these are nice to see what went down

 

 

[ShampooX]

wow Denum thanks!!  This game continues to impress.  I learned that on that last sortie I must have accidentally hit the "bail out" LCTRL/E function.  Ha.  I killed myself!!

[RIVALDO]

Sometimes the tankers and airmen communicate very well as a team. A trace from your shot and a cloud of smoke is a good give away for a trained pilot  despite the tree cover.

[Denum]

Finnish pilots has a wonderful system for after sortie. 

 

The only thing missing is Tacview but unfortunately some people were using it to cheat.

 

I had a game where I got absolutely deleted in my Sherman, I was under the impression I got popped by player tank. 

 

Ended up being a 109 that slammed me with a bomb!

[No_Face]

3 hours ago, RIVALDO said:

A trace from your shot and a cloud of smoke is a good give away for a trained pilot  despite the tree cover.

Certainly our smoke can make us spot as well as the dust that we leave but the real problem is this famous "forest cover" since in reality it does not really exist.

Add to that the fact that the trees don't seem to be blocking projectiles; under cover under the trees you are more vulnerable than you think.

 

What you see :

 

 

 

What your ennemies see from "a distance" :

 

 

 

EDIT : I know that there has been maintenance of the forum but really, it would be asking too much to make it enjoyable to use? I've been hanging out on the internet for more than 20 years and only with this forum posting pictures, videos, copy / paste and painful and incomprehensible.

Edited February 8, 2021 by No_Face

[LachenKrieg]

If you want to use a tree as cover, it works better if you knock one down to hide in. But planes can spot you pretty easy.

 

 

[RIVALDO]

Also some real winners command their rear gunners to attack the ground targets.Then AI rear gunner finds you no matter how well you think you're hidden and starts shooting at your tank,marking you.Then the pilot finishes you with the bombs or cannons.

[LachenKrieg]

1 hour ago, RIVALDO said:

Also some real winners command their rear gunners to attack the ground targets.Then AI rear gunner finds you no matter how well you think you're hidden and starts shooting at your tank,marking you.Then the pilot finishes you with the bombs or cannons.

That highlights another of the long list of things that should be fixed in Tank Crew. Even if the AI skill level is set to the highest skill setting, AI should not be able to use x-ray vision to spot and target you through hills/trees/forests. I think there has already been some improvements with this, but there is still room for improvement.

[JG27_Steini]

2 hours ago, RIVALDO said:

Also some real winners command their rear gunners to attack the ground targets.Then AI rear gunner finds you no matter how well you think you're hidden and starts shooting at your tank,marking you.Then the pilot finishes you with the bombs or cannons.

 

Great. It is still an anti tank gameplay. We more tank only server.

[RIVALDO]

The AI on ground attack planes should be optional and switched off by the server host. Just like in tanks. No AI shoots for you. If you want a gunner in your plane protecting your 6 -get a buddy in your plane and fly together 

[LachenKrieg]

3 hours ago, JG27_Steini said:

 

Great. It is still an anti tank gameplay. We more tank only server.

 

The response to your statement is both yes and no. What we are taking part in is the transition of a successful flight SIM franchise as it attempts to grow into other areas of related game play, and I see at least two main obstacles to that transition.

 

The first being the technical issues that must be overcome by the developers so that air and ground forces are both able to enjoy the same level of game play at the same time on the same map.

 

The second is related to the balance of game play that results from the combination of the two. Compared to other games like WoT and WT where balance is built-in by giving two teams of more or less equal strength concrete objectives, MP game play here is focused more on simulating the real thing. And unlike the real thing where forces are committed with coordination, simulated MP game play can be both uncoordinated and imbalanced at the same time. As reflected in the quoted text below, balanced game play is really left up to the developers working closely with the community so that the server hosts are able implement settings that would allow as close as possible, a simulation of the real thing. 

 

The linked video above demonstrates just how good the visual/audible simulation in the GBS can be. Unless you are very close, you may hear another vehicle operating in your area, a well camouflaged unit will take coordinated planning to root out. When a player who has made what is often a major effort to get into position gets deleted by the unrealistic x-ray vision of AI, it can zap all the juice out of enjoying game play. That is why I hope and think the upcoming AAA vehicles will add a much needed layer to help better balance the combination of air and ground forces, and hope that the developers will continue to work with the community to address the various issues raised.

 

So while I agree having "Tank" only game play servers can be fun, they miss out on the exciting opportunity that a well implemented combined arms game play offers. 

 

2 hours ago, RIVALDO said:

The AI on ground attack planes should be optional and switched off by the server host. Just like in tanks. No AI shoots for you. If you want a gunner in your plane protecting your 6 -get a buddy in your plane and fly together 

 

[Charlo-VRde]

7 hours ago, RIVALDO said:

The AI on ground attack planes should be optional and switched off by the server host. Just like in tanks. No AI shoots for you. If you want a gunner in your plane protecting your 6 -get a buddy in your plane and fly together 

 

Or three or four buddies on the A20, JU88, HE111, etc?  ??

 

The better solution to this very real issue for tankers is for the devs to allow server hosts the option of turning off the "Gunner Attack Ground Targets" option - though that may be much more difficult to implement than we think.

 

I want to encourage tankers on the MP servers, even when they take over my airfield and kill me as I spawn in. It's quite fun going on a tank hunt, but AI should not be able to find a tank for you, and I don't use that option out of fairness

[RIVALDO]

8 minutes ago, Charlo-VR said:

 

Or three or four buddies on the A20, JU88, HE111, etc?  ??

 

The better solution to this very real issue for tankers is for the devs to allow server hosts the option of turning off the "Gunner Attack Ground Targets" option - though that may be much more difficult to implement than we think.

 

I want to encourage tankers on the MP servers, even when they take over my airfield and kill me as I spawn in. It's quite fun going on a tank hunt, but AI should not be able to find a tank for you, and I don't use that option out of fairness

Excellent idea! If certain commands could be locked by the server settings it would be great!!!

We jump between the positions in our tanks,why can't you??

Edited February 9, 2021 by RIVALDO

[LachenKrieg]

1 hour ago, RIVALDO said:

Excellent idea! If certain commands could be locked by the server settings it would be great!!!

We jump between the positions in our tanks,why can't you??

Wouldn't you just use the forward guns available to the pilot instead of jumping in the rear seat? But like you said, it is a little unfair if pilots can use the AI in dual seat planes to spot player tanks with x-ray vision. The AI in Tanks can only react to other tanks, the AI in planes should only be able to react to other planes.

[RIVALDO]

3 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

Wouldn't you just use the forward guns available to the pilot instead of jumping in the rear seat? But like you said, it is a little unfair if pilots can use the AI in dual seat planes to spot player tanks with x-ray vision. The AI in Tanks can only react to other tanks, the AI in planes should only be able to react to other planes.

Yes,yes and yes! How in the world would a rear gunner spot a stationary tank that's sitting under the tree or between a couple of buildings!? Seems like a little too much...

[LachenKrieg]

On 2/9/2021 at 7:26 AM, RIVALDO said:

Also some real winners command their rear gunners to attack the ground targets.Then AI rear gunner finds you no matter how well you think you're hidden and starts shooting at your tank,marking you.Then the pilot finishes you with the bombs or cannons.

 

20 hours ago, RIVALDO said:

The AI on ground attack planes should be optional and switched off by the server host. Just like in tanks. No AI shoots for you. If you want a gunner in your plane protecting your 6 -get a buddy in your plane and fly together 

 

8 hours ago, RIVALDO said:

Yes,yes and yes! How in the world would a rear gunner spot a stationary tank that's sitting under the tree or between a couple of buildings!? Seems like a little too much...

I don't know, you would have to tell me. I understood from your original description that you meant the pilot would bank the plane. I now have to assume that you were not being sincere, and that you have now stretched your exaggeration to the point where it has become idiotic.

 

I don't frequent the MP servers. My comments and the video I posted were directed at a post by @No_Face. In his "what you see" pictures, he shows an LOS from the front of his tank. In his "what your enemy sees" picture, he shows the right side of a tank in the open. If the two sets of pictures are connected, then by rotating his view 45degrees, he would have seen the enemy tank on his flank.

 

From the Commander's position, you can allow the AI Gunner to shot for you, and I know that the AI gunner in this game is not modeled well. The AI don't aim and shoot like a player does, the game marks a pixel on your tank where the shot will hit. The mussel flash, flying shell, and explosion that follows are just graphic effects. This is how an SU 122 can hit a moving target, or the shot trap on a Panther at 1400m over and over, but IRL would be almost impossible. 

 

So as a sincere contribution to the OP's concern even though he now realizes that he might have inadvertently abandoned his vehicle, he can greatly reduce the issue of revenge killing by using effective cover. If you are well hidden, your enemy has very little chance of even knowing what direction the shot came from unless he/she actually saw the smoke plume. From the air, it is not only easier to see the smoke plume, but you can also see the MG tracer fire.

[ShampooX]

Thanks for all the great replies. Now that I’ve got about 15 hours on the Server I see how the lack of a real kill cam and the respawn process really make it almost impossible.   Now I just check the sky before lighting up a target and make sure to have my next move/spot already planned before firing.   The sky’s are just very dangerous.  

[No_Face]

1 hour ago, LachenKrieg said:

 

 

 My comments and the video I posted were directed at a post by @No_Face. In his "what you see" pictures, he shows an LOS from the front of his tank. In his "what your enemy sees" picture, he shows the right side of a tank in the open. If the two sets of pictures are connected, then by rotating his view 45degrees, he would have seen the enemy tank on his flank.

Erf, sorry, it's my fault. The different screenshots are not connected. They are just there to illustrate what you can see when you are in a hedge (a fairly dense cover)  and how another player can see someone in a hedge (a fairly sparse cover). 

[LachenKrieg]

6 minutes ago, No_Face said:

Erf, sorry, it's my fault. The different screenshots are not connected. They are just there to illustrate what you can see when you are in a hedge (a fairly dense cover)  and how another player can see someone in a hedge (a fairly sparse cover). 

I didn't think there was any fault in your post. Your point was well understood, that is why I was suggesting that the OP actually knock the tree down to hide in it if he want's to improve his chances of not being spotted. If you are well hidden, even planes will have a hard time spotting you at least until you fire.

[RIVALDO]

50 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

 If you are well hidden, even planes will have a hard time spotting you at least until you fire.

 

Pretty idiotic statement.  Command your gunners to shoot at ground targets while in bomber or ground attack plane,and the AI will spot you from any position in the plane.Then the pilot will finish you off.

[LachenKrieg]

21 hours ago, RIVALDO said:

Excellent idea! If certain commands could be locked by the server settings it would be great!!!

We jump between the positions in our tanks,why can't you??

 

15 hours ago, RIVALDO said:

Yes,yes and yes! How in the world would a rear gunner spot a stationary tank that's sitting under the tree or between a couple of buildings!? Seems like a little too much...

 

4 hours ago, RIVALDO said:

 

Pretty idiotic statement.  Command your gunners to shoot at ground targets while in bomber or ground attack plane,and the AI will spot you from any position in the plane.Then the pilot will finish you off.

It's pretty hard to follow you!

 

You claimed that players in planes can set their AI to attack ground targets. You implied that when a player does this, the AI will spot your tank regardless of how well camouflaged it is.

 

I don't fly planes in IL2, but I have no reason to not believe what you are saying. Especially since I have already seen the AI in tanks doing nearly the exact same thing.

 

So I said your claim highlights the long list of things that need to be fixed in Tank Crew, and I agreed, if players in planes can set AI to spot players in tanks even when completely hidden from view, then I'm not surprised considering all the other bizarre things in Tank Crew like the gun lock issue for example.

 

So I will repeat, if players in planes can set AI to use x-ray vision to locate players in tanks, then that is just messed up, and I have no idea how that is supposed to help grow the user base and entice players to participate in MP game play in tanks.

 

But then you suggested that players in planes should be able to occupy different positions. My question to you was and still is, why wouldn't you just use the guns/bombs available from the pilots seat? Unless there are planes where the pilot has no access to guns/bombs, and I don't know that there is, then regardless whether the seat is in the tail, below wing, or behind the pilot, why move if you have access to guns/bombs from the pilot's seat? In a tank, you don't change from the Gunners station to the Drivers station because you want to use the main gun! And in planes like the Pe-2 and He 111, the gun turrets were meant mostly to protect the plane from other planes as it conducted bombing runs on infrastructure, and less to attack ground targets. But again, if a player in an He 111 can set the AI to spot players through hills/tress/forests, then hey, welcome to Tank Crew!

[RIVALDO]

I thought a winking emoji after me saying about switching positions would've given away the SARCASM! 

[SCG_Neun]

I would sprinkle the woods with target droppings for the auto AI gunners to waste their rounds on.  Make the vehicles targets invulnerable....and fire away...back seat AI radar shooters till your hearts content.

[RIVALDO]

Stationary cars or trucks would work sometimes. But you can't really cover the whole drivable map with targets. Because you don't know where and when you might encounter an enemy plane  .

[ShampooX]

Jus dumb down the AI on ground targets?  Is this possible to code?  Like when I try the Easy Mission Planner and one of the options is “gunners are harmless”.  Or just turn off ground gunner from air all together.   I have no problem with a flyboy who works for a ground kill flying low and scanning for targets and while I think tank only should still be an option, that combined arms with realistic air interplay makes the immersion amazing. If the programmers can master this this game will dominate. It’s already better that WT with the AI the way it is now. 

Edited February 12, 2021 by 11thPanzer_Pete

[SCG_Neun]

Like Rivaldo stated there is already an option to turn off the ai gunner for tanks, just make this an option for planes, but you have to come up with something as a workaround in the meantime because change can be very slow at times here.  When any player in a server uses his AI gunner to spot ground targets he himself cannot spot then this is just not fair to tankers who have gone to great lengths to remain hidden from the air.  Sometimes driving in wooded areas for long periods and risking the other nightmare of invisible trees.  
 

Still a great game though.

Edited February 13, 2021 by SCG_Neun

[LachenKrieg]

Most of my time is spent in SP mode, and even at that, with the extended effort it takes to position yourself in a game like this, it is frustrating enough to have an AI delete your tank when it doesn't seem like it should be able to. I can imagine how much more frustrating it must be when you are competing with real players.

[beresford]

AI rear gunners shouldn't fire at tanks, since they are likely wasting ammo. But they should be able to fire at AAA to suppress or kill it as you exit from an attack run.

[JG27_Steini]

31 minutes ago, beresford said:

AI rear gunners shouldn't fire at tanks, since they are likely wasting ammo. But they should be able to fire at AAA to suppress or kill it as you exit from an attack run.

 

It should be possible when there is an historical background. I can not image that rear gunner frequently and without permission attacked ground targets. They were supposed to watch the sky and cover the pilot. It is very unlikely to hit the ground target in moving plane without a huge amount of ammo.

[LachenKrieg]

1 hour ago, beresford said:

AI rear gunners shouldn't fire at tanks, since they are likely wasting ammo. But they should be able to fire at AAA to suppress or kill it as you exit from an attack run.

IMO, the point is less about who is allowed to shoot at you, and more about whether or not you are even visible to be shot at. If your tank/plane becomes visible in the gun sight of your opponent, then I am sure we can all agree on the fairness of that. But if the AI in this SIM can see through hills/forest/buildings to shoot/spot you for other real players, then it is obviously unfair and this community shouldn't be expected to agree with that. And I agree, suppressing AAA fire as you exit from an attack would be a good sign in terms of AI behavior working properly.