I really don't understand this.

[Panzerlang]

After messing around with lots of settings in the PWCG and IL2 graphics settings I've monitored the CPU and GPU with HWMonitor and seen the GPU mostly around 80%, even at 100% the terrain is silky smooth. As soon as high-density air-traffic spawns in (even before being visible) the whole shebang turns into a slide-show and my brother (co-op) gets the "Server Overload" message, yet the highest any of the CPU cores has hit is 60%.

Air high, ground and AA low, CPU high...server overload and slide-show.

Air high, ground and AA low, CPU med...stutterfest.

WTF is going on? This isn't a GPU issue, because even with shed-loads of planes in view the GPU is at 80% (very occasional spike to mid 90s/100%). Why is the game collapsing at highest CPU of 60%?

32GB of 3600mhz G-Skill RAM in dual-mode.

Is the mobo crap? Z370 Aorus Gaming 7.

CPU i5 8600k at 5gig.

HP Reverb G2 VR.

Edited January 25, 2021 by JG51-Hetzer

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

There is currently no indicator that works correctly for CPU in IL-2.

 

The rule is: If the frametimes don't keep up, but the GPU isn't at >95%, then it is the CPU.

 

 

The "smallest" CPU that runs IL-2 on Ultra at 90Hz 24/7 is Ryzen 5600X. Afaik there's no Intel CPU that can keep up atm, but there'll be a new generation soon.

Edited January 25, 2021 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[Panzerlang]

7 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

There is currently no indicator that works correctly for CPU in IL-2.

 

The rule is: If the frametimes don't keep up, but the GPU isn't at >95%, then it is the CPU.

 

 

The "smallest" CPU that runs IL-2 on Ultra at 90Hz 24/7 is Ryzen 5600X. Afaik there's no Intel CPU that can keep up atm, but there'll be a new generation soon.

HWM monitors the CPU regardless of what is using it (IL2 or whatever else). It's the AI in the game that's bringing it to its knees, but at no more than 60% on any core. Why does the AI make the game fall over when there's still 40% CPU left to go (and the GPU is at 80%)? It's like a car engine conking out when there's still 40% gas left in the tank.

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

25 minutes ago, JG51-Hetzer said:

HWM monitors the CPU regardless of what is using it (IL2 or whatever else). It's the AI in the game that's bringing it to its knees, but at no more than 60% on any core. Why does the AI make the game fall over when there's still 40% CPU left to go (and the GPU is at 80%)? It's like a car engine conking out when there's still 40% gas left in the tank.

 

This behaviour isn't unique to Il-2. Per-core CPU utilization figures are essentially meaningless.

 

Run any single thread CPU benchmark, and you won't see a single core near 100%. Instead, there will be significant (but not very high) utilization across several cores.

 

Unfortunately, CPU utilization is a big red herring that continually causes confusion in gaming. @SCG_Fenris_Wolf is correct here.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Mitthrawnuruodo

[Panzerlang]

9 minutes ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

 

This behaviour isn't unique to Il-2. Per-core CPU utilization figures are essentially meaningless.

 

Run any single thread CPU benchmark, and you won't see a single core near 100%. Instead, there will be significant (but not very high) utilization across several cores.

 

Unfortunately, CPU utilization is a big red herring that continually causes confusion in gaming. @SCG_Fenris_Wolf is correct here.

Prime95 certainly brings them all up to 100%. But I know that's not a fair comparison. I guess IL2, like any program, needs an amount of overhead for all the swapping about.

Conclusion...current CPUs are still primitive shit.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

@JG51-Hetzer

No need to be mad, actually the new AMDs are fantastic and smart boost out of the box to levels Intel can dream of even with manual OCing. So it's really something good. I really recommend them to you, your CPU can use an upgrade. Don't take mere frequency numbers as comparison:

 

There's no confusion here mate, it's not overhead but the IPC and uncore speed that is important too, because IL-2's main swaps from core to core.

 

To match the new 5600X which boosts to 4.85GHz on a single core, the older 8600K would probably need to run more than around 6GHz, rough estimate based on IPC difference of 20-30%. That thing can run IL-2 VR on Ultra. Raw power beating an old engine.

Edited January 26, 2021 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[chiliwili69]

in VR you can always use fpsVR while you are playing, so you can see both, CPU frametimes and GPU frametimes and see what is your current bottleneck in every scenario.

[Panzerlang]

1 hour ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

@JG51-Hetzer

No need to be mad, actually the new AMDs are fantastic and smart boost out of the box to levels Intel can dream of even with manual OCing. So it's really something good. I really recommend them to you, your CPU can use an upgrade. Don't take mere frequency numbers as comparison:

 

There's no confusion here mate, it's not overhead but the IPC and uncore speed that is important too, because IL-2's main swaps from core to core.

 

To match the new 5600X which boosts to 4.85GHz on a single core, the older 8600K would probably need to run more than around 6GHz, rough estimate based on IPC difference of 20-30%. That thing can run IL-2 VR on Ultra. Raw power beating an old engine.

I'm very leery of AMD stuff, certainly still so after reading about flakey mobos and sub-par hi-rez graphics. In fact their CPUs sound like the only thing they've got right so far.

I guess the acid test is can the 5600X (or better) run high and high in PWCG without "Server Overload"? That's a test I'd like to see.

[jollyjack]

Some 10 years ago i had a 4 year old Acer laptop with AMD CPU burning out. Since then i rarely buy something from those brands. Money was quite scarce for me then LoL.

[ST_Catchov]

Pffft laptop! AMD CPU's have come a long way in 10 years. In fact, I prefer them to Intel now. Bigger bang for your buck shall we say. Please reconsider Jacko.

[LuftManu]

1 hour ago, JG51-Hetzer said:

I'm very leery of AMD stuff, certainly still so after reading about flakey mobos and sub-par hi-rez graphics. In fact their CPUs sound like the only thing they've got right so far.

I guess the acid test is can the 5600X (or better) run high and high in PWCG without "Server Overload"? That's a test I'd like to see.

Yes it does. Really better than a I9 10900K.

Don't know the specifics, but the 5000 series are the only ones that can run the Rheinland_Benchmark without the slowdown thing.

 

Ryzen 5000 series right now are the best CPU for Il-2 performance wise.

Edited January 26, 2021 by LF_Gallahad

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

2 hours ago, JG51-Hetzer said:

I'm very leery of AMD stuff, certainly still so after reading about flakey mobos and sub-par hi-rez graphics. In fact their CPUs sound like the only thing they've got right so far

Same here, I took a chance upon CPU release and got a 5900X.

 

Also, yes you're right, it's just the CPUs. The GPUs (6800 and 6900) somehow have issues in VR, maybe drivers, slower RAM. Lure people with 16GB of RAM, which is worse than the 3080's high-speed 10GB. I stick with Nvidia for GPUs.

 

The Motherboards are very good by the way, there have been some manufacturers that cheaped out on important parts while hiding that.

Now, best bang for buck you can get are MSI Tomahawk WiFi - either b550 (PCIe3 setup) or x570 (PCIe4 setup). They are from 2020 and MSI's apology to the community for having such sub-par components on earlier boards (which are still in circulation and often more expensive - still!).

Edited January 26, 2021 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[Panzerlang]

1 hour ago, LF_Gallahad said:

Yes it does. Really better than a I9 10900K.

Don't know the specifics, but the 5000 series are the only ones that can run the Rheinland_Benchmark without the slowdown thing.

 

Ryzen 5000 series right now are the best CPU for Il-2 performance wise.

I don't know what the Rheinland Benchmark is. The only test that would sell it to me is being able to run a PWCG co-op mission with high air density, low ground and AA density and high CPU without the clients getting the "Server Overload" message and the game turning into a slide-show. If the AMD CPUs can't manage that there's no objective reason not to stick with Intel.

[LuftManu]

5 minutes ago, JG51-Hetzer said:

I don't know what the Rheinland Benchmark is. The only test that would sell it to me is being able to run a PWCG co-op mission with high air density, low ground and AA density and high CPU without the clients getting the "Server Overload" message and the game turning into a slide-show. If the AMD CPUs can't manage that there's no objective reason not to stick with Intel.

There always be slowdown. A better CPU will benefict from more aircraft in the sky, that's it. The new Ryzens are able to do Career on most dense settings without slowdowns on my setup and so far (I've only played PWCG for 2 weeks since I upgraded) I didn't encounter this issue with aircraft at max.

 

You can try this mission to see how your computer fares with lots of calculations 

 

I am not a shill of any brand. I used to have Intel and ditched it as AMD is offering more performance right now for Il-2 and flight sims overall because of the SC performance and IPC.

I still don't understand this fear to AMD. I guess Intel is doing its PR great.

 

Just stick with you want. In my case, the one that performs better.

Edited January 26, 2021 by LF_Gallahad

[Panzerlang]

1 minute ago, LF_Gallahad said:

There always be slowdown. A better CPU will benefict from more aircraft in the sky, that's it. The new Ryzens are able to do Career on most dense settings without slowdowns on my setup and so far (I've only played PWCG for 2 weeks since I upgraded) I didn't encounter this issue with aircraft at max.

 

You can try this mission to see how your computer fares with lots of calculations 

 

I am not a shill of any brand. I used to have Intel and ditched it as AMD is offering more performance right now for Il-2 and flight sims overall because of the SC performance and IPC.

I still don't understand this fear to AMD. I guess Intel is doing its PR great.

 

Just stick with you want. In my case, the one that performs better.

With 12 years of PC engineering under my belt I too frequently came across AMD CPUs that had not stood the test of time. They burned out. I don't know if that's still an issue but my regard of them is tainted by that history.

 

[LuftManu]

Just now, JG51-Hetzer said:

With 12 years of PC engineering under my belt I too frequently came across AMD CPUs that had not stood the test of time. They burned out. I don't know if that's still an issue but my regard of them is tainted by that history.

 

Everybody has their opinion. I had problems with both Intel and AMD. Most of them, user made.

 

If you want to stick with Intel, it's a valid option, but AMD is performing better on Il-2, period. You can check the public benchmarks and see how a $300 CPU beats an i9 10900K in the game.

So if this post is to seek performance, you won't do with that unless you wait.

 

Intel is going to release a two new gens soon. One is due this spring. Maybe it performs better, maybe it performs worse, but it will be better than what they had. In AMD you already know it's working good.

[Panzerlang]

2 minutes ago, LF_Gallahad said:

Everybody has their opinion. I had problems with both Intel and AMD. Most of them, user made.

 

If you want to stick with Intel, it's a valid option, but AMD is performing better on Il-2, period. You can check the public benchmarks and see how a $300 CPU beats an i9 10900K in the game.

So if this post is to seek performance, you won't do with that unless you wait.

 

Intel is going to release a two new gens soon. One is due this spring. Maybe it performs better, maybe it performs worse, but it will be better than what they had. In AMD you already know it's working good.

What system are you running (hardware) and can you test a PWCG co-op mission with the settings I mention? You have to fly it until the AI spawns in of course because they (the missions) begin very smoothly.

Edited January 26, 2021 by JG51-Hetzer

[Voidhunger]

1 hour ago, LF_Gallahad said:

Don't know the specifics, but the 5000 series are the only ones that can run the Rheinland_Benchmark without the slowdown thing.

Hi, can you share your in game graphic settings?

 

Do you use things like maximum performance in win10 power option and prefer maximum performance in nvidia control panel?

 

I have updated bios to the newest beta one and it seems somewhat better, but the game is still not fluid(like in QMB or without enemy activity) and I can clearly see time dilation in career in all density settings.

and small stutters here and there.

 

Thanks

[LuftManu]

6 minutes ago, JG51-Hetzer said:

What system are you running (hardware) and can you test a PWCG mission with the settings I mention? You have to fly it until the AI spawns in of course because they (the missions) begin very smoothly.

Right on my signature. Will do ASAP but this week is troublesome whit COVID here.

 

4 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

Hi, can you share your in game graphic settings?

 

Do you use things like maximum performance in win10 power option and prefer maximum performance in nvidia control panel?

 

I have updated bios to the newest beta one and it seems somewhat better, but the game is still not fluid(like in QMB or without enemy activity) and I can clearly see time dilation in career in all density settings.

and small stutters here and there.

 

Thanks

Are you still having issues? Yeah wait a min.

 

Ingame settings: All maxed out except full screen, Sharpen. MSAA x2 and Res 2560x1440.

 

Manual RAM OC

 

CPU settings at stock. We are three in our squadron with this combo: Ryzen 5600X, Aorus B550 pro and 16Gb CL16 Ballistix.

 

I am not even doing any OC outside RAM. With new beta AGESA I can push IF to 1900 and still, but no need. No slodowns. Period.

 

I'm starting to believe you have a serious hardware problem. None of the guys with this combo is having slowdowns. Not anybody with a 5000 we can hear in this forum with stock career.

Edited January 26, 2021 by LF_Gallahad

[Voidhunger]

3 minutes ago, LF_Gallahad said:

Are you still having issues? Yeah wait a min.

Yep still and Im totaly pisse... off

 

also it would be nice if someone can record heavy mission and upload it on youtube.

I need to see the performance.

 

I even slightly overclocked cpu with the ryzen master software.

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Voidhunger

[Cynic_Al]

15 minutes ago, JG51-Hetzer said:

PC engineering

 

Just for clarity, could you define the exact meaning of that phrase?

[Voidhunger]

15 minutes ago, LF_Gallahad said:

Right on my signature. Will do ASAP but this week is troublesome whit COVID here.

 

Are you still having issues? Yeah wait a min.

 

Ingame settings: All maxed out except full screen, Sharpen. MSAA x2 and Res 2560x1440.

 

Manual RAM OC

 

CPU settings at stock. We are three in our squadron with this combo: Ryzen 5600X, Aorus B550 pro and 16Gb CL16 Ballistix.

 

I am not even doing any OC outside RAM. With new beta AGESA I can push IF to 1900 and still, but no need. No slodowns. Period.

 

I'm starting to believe you have a serious hardware problem. None of the guys with this combo is having slowdowns. Not anybody with a 5000 we can hear in this forum with stock career.

Vsync on and track ir?

[LuftManu]

21 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

Vsync on and track ir?

Yes, target at 144 fps.

[Voidhunger]

23 minutes ago, LF_Gallahad said:

Yes, target at 144 fps.

Ok thanks, i will try the rheinland time dilation mission today.

I though that with vsync on you dont need to set the target framerate.

[LuftManu]

Just now, Voidhunger said:

Ok thanks, i will try the rheinland time dilation mission today.

I though that with vsync on you dont need to set the target framerate.

Thats because I don't have a DP cable yet. I will try to use Freesync in the future ?

[Panzerlang]

55 minutes ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

Just for clarity, could you define the exact meaning of that phrase?

Fixing peoples PCs and building new ones. Also networks for small businesses.

[Voidhunger]

8 minutes ago, LF_Gallahad said:

Thats because I don't have a DP cable yet. I will try to use Freesync in the future ?

Ok ok, i know that im annoying , but i have to be absolutely sure, cos i need to crack it down. If you run qmb 4x4 planes on kuban or rheinland map( i dont know which is more demanding) at max ( almost max settings) you have this fluid performance (like i have in qmb) throughout the whole career. You cant see the difference if you are playing career or qmb. Thanks again.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Voidhunger

[LuftManu]

Just now, Voidhunger said:

Ok ok, i know that im annoying , but i have to be absolutely sure, cos i need to crack it down. If you run qmb 4x4 planes on kuban or rheinland( i dont know which is more demanding) at max ( almost max settings) you have this fluid performance (like i have in qmb) throughout the whole career. You cant see the difference if you are playing career or qmb. Thanks again.

 

 

Everything smooth as butter.

[Cynic_Al]

29 minutes ago, JG51-Hetzer said:

Fixing peoples PCs and building new ones. Also networks for small businesses.

 

Exactly as I suspected; nothing to do with engineering.  You're a technician who assembles, connects, configures and tests the products of other people's engineering.

[Panzerlang]

6 minutes ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

Exactly as I suspected; nothing to do with engineering.  You're a technician who assembles, connects, configures and tests the products of other people's engineering.

Lol. It's a loose term. Would it have made you feel better if I'd said "technician"? Apparently so. I'll not bother to keep your odd and pointless hostility in mind for future reference of course.?

[Cynic_Al]

2 hours ago, JG51-Hetzer said:

Lol. It's a loose term. Would it have made you feel better if I'd said "technician"? Apparently so. I'll not bother to keep your odd and pointless hostility in mind for future reference of course.?

 

Some countries still allow its abuse, the more enlightened ones have strict legislation to protect it.  I won't ask which type you inhabit.

[Panzerlang]

9 minutes ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

Some countries still allow its abuse, the more enlightened ones have strict legislation to protect it.  I won't ask which type you inhabit.

Eh? ?

[Cynic_Al]

3 minutes ago, JG51-Hetzer said:

Eh? ?

 

Not everywhere lets you call yourself an engineer unless you can show recognised qualifications.  Does that dumb it down enough for you?

[Panzerlang]

10 minutes ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

Not everywhere lets you call yourself an engineer unless you can show recognised qualifications.  Does that dumb it down enough for you?

Lol. You're now blocked. Byee!

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Guys, that was surely just lost in translation of Hetzer. He is probably from some country in which the title is distributed inflationarily (like all the "managers" in Russia). I am an engineer, and where I'm from a technician must not call himself an engineer. In the country I am from (Germany), this is a protected title, and here it's even a fine-able offence. Same as calling yourself a Dr. But you shouldn't blame him for (mis)translating it - his country probably just handles it differently, so it's normal. It's similar to people entering Coding-Bootcamps and calling themselves "Software Engineers" in the US. In Germany they'd receive looks for that.

 

What I don't get is just this: Hetzer, you have asked for advice. We have given you advice. It's based on actual data, we're not fanboys. I had bad experiences with AMD in the past and ordered the new gen Ryzen on the premise that I could return it. Needless to say, I've kept it after benching everything. It wipes the floor with the latest-gen Intel CPUs on large Single-Threads as well. You could just say "thank you", and that's it, instead of trying to fight our findings.

 

So, we shouldn't fight over such trivial things, these are not console wars. We want IL-2 to run properly, that's our main goal.

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

"Engineering" in ordinary English can simply be the action of designing/building something. By itself it is not a title and it does not imply any particular qualifications.

 

Anyway, I wouldn't worry about CPU failures. The risk is tiny and you never know how newer manufacturing processes will behave.

[Panzerlang]

3 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Guys, that was surely just lost in translation of Hetzer. He is probably from some country in which the title is distributed inflationarily (like all the "managers" in Russia). I am an engineer, and where I'm from a technician must not call himself an engineer. In the country I am from (Germany), this is a protected title, and here it's even a fine-able offence. Same as calling yourself a Dr. But you shouldn't blame him for (mis)translating it - his country probably just handles it differently, so it's normal. It's similar to people entering Coding-Bootcamps and calling themselves "Software Engineers" in the US. In Germany they'd receive looks for that.

 

What I don't get is just this: Hetzer, you have asked for advice. We have given you advice. It's based on actual data, we're not fanboys. I had bad experiences with AMD in the past and ordered the new gen Ryzen on the premise that I could return it. Needless to say, I've kept it after benching everything. It wipes the floor with the latest-gen Intel CPUs on large Single-Threads as well. You could just say "thank you", and that's it, instead of trying to fight our findings.

 

So, we shouldn't fight over such trivial things, these are not console wars. We want IL-2 to run properly, that's our main goal.

You've misunderstood my words it seems. Nowhere have I been trying to "fight" your findings. I've asked for specific empirical proof because I'd like to know, specifically, if the AMD CPU would be suitable for my needs. Neither have I implied anyone is an AMD "fanboy". I have no agenda here other than to get the best co-op performance possible. If somebody does an actual PWCG co-op test with the settings I've mentioned and it stomps it, I'll be purchasing an AMD. And THAT person will get my thanks, because they'll have earned it. Specifically.

[Dutch2]

9 hours ago, JG51-Hetzer said:

You've misunderstood my words it seems. Nowhere have I been trying to "fight" your findings. I've asked for specific empirical proof because I'd like to know, specifically, if the AMD CPU would be suitable for my needs. Neither have I implied anyone is an AMD "fanboy". I have no agenda here other than to get the best co-op performance possible. If somebody does an actual PWCG co-op test with the settings I've mentioned and it stomps it, I'll be purchasing an AMD. And THAT person will get my thanks, because they'll have earned it. Specifically.

 

Sorry to interrupt here, but right now there is a shortage on hardware and because of that very expensive. Q3 2021 the new DDR5 will be released, guess by that time also bringing normal prices and new sockets/CPU for both AMD & Intel. Just my 2cents. 

Edited January 27, 2021 by Dutch2

[Panzerlang]

7 minutes ago, Dutch2 said:

 

Sorry to interrupt here, but right now there is a shortage on hardware and because of that very expensive. Q3 2021 the new DDR5 will be released, guess by that time also bringing normal prices and new sockets/CPU for both AMD & Intel. Just my 2cents. 

That is the bigger issue right now unfortunately. It's one thing to identify the best hardware, something else entirely to get ones hands on it. Lol.