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Comparing HMG Damage, and issues with .50 cals


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QB.Creep
3 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

@Cassthat's great Cass but this information would probably be of much more use posted here:

 

Nothing has been posted to the damage model section since March 10th and it only runs to 5 pages. 

 

The devs literally said “stop” after posting some dubious images of 20mm damage (look at the message on Feb 17).

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ACG_Cass
3 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

that's great Cass but this information would probably be of much more use posted here:

I mean we have. There was a long post comparing AP to HE with a dev response. I can post it but if the response is that 12.7mm AP leaves 1 12.7mm hole, then I'm assuming 20mm AP leaves 1 20mm hole. We've been told time and time again, despite the glaring issues that the DM isn't getting changed. We're running up to a year now either keep highlighting the issues or just deal with it.

 

I get the feeling that the devs misunderstand our criticisms sometimes. The damage model is great. It has its faults and limitations but the fact it spans across two generations of aircraft and a ground tank module in such an old engine is really an incredible feat.

 

The problem is that the easily editable values that are being put into that model are yielding the weird results that we see. Someone's already running through and creating mods by editing these and creating much more feasible results. I understand the push to release new products and the swathe of developers their hiring is good news. But to have not even taken a look at the issue for such a long time is really disappointing.

 

My guess is that the new fueling system will mean a complete rework of the values and they don't want to have to do it twice. But if that's they case they need to be honest with the community as we have no idea when the fueling system will actually be finished.

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6./ZG26_Custard
1 hour ago, QB.Creep said:

The devs literally said “stop” after posting some dubious images of 20mm damage (look at the message on Feb 17).

Are you surprised? There was stuff posted everywhere including 3rd party sites. We are currently at 21 pages and counting on this thread alone, while over on the bug report  it's on 5 pages with the last post on the 10th of March. The developers have now said they will study the damage model. This may not be enough for some people but at least its going to get a second look but the differences between AP and HE are nothing new, except last time it was the other way round with many complaining that AP was devastating and HE was a dud. This was probably partly why the DM was updated and now we have the situation we are currently in. I understand people want to sound off but the best way to get attention is to post in the relevant section. That doesn't always mean you will get the answer that you want but Cass recently raised issues about the P-47 DM and its going to get more attention posted in bug reports. I know people are frustrated but I could think of one particular other flight sim forum where most of the people posting would have banned at the slightest complaint. 

Edit:-

59 minutes ago, Cass said:

 

My guess is that the new fueling system will mean a complete rework of the values and they don't want to have to do it twice

I think you probably guessed right. 

Edited by 6./ZG26_Custard
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-SF-Disarray

So people should post things to the bug reports section to get attention until they post something disagreeable and are told to stop and that posting this kind of thing isn't going to get the devs to move on the issue? I can't imagine why people are a little confused with this whole process.

 

I feel like you think we are expecting imitate action on all our issues. This isn't the case for most people. It is the case, however, that after a year of pointing to this glaring issue with no movement on it at all people are starting to lose patience. This is compounded when a person in their free time can make simple adjustments to values within the damage model using minimal tools and produce a more plausible outcome. That could be the interim fix people have proposed, like the 'temporary' fix to the 109's tail.

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6./ZG26_Custard
28 minutes ago, -SF-Disarray said:

That could be the interim fix people have proposed, like the 'temporary' fix to the 109's tail.

Temporary "fixes" would just be going down the Rabbit Hole even further and open up a bigger can of worms because people would want or expect more and more temporary fixes to other issues that they view as probelmatic. At this point the developers have said they will study the damage model, I've got no idea when they will be but I'm assuming it will be after they've finished the things that they are behind on their schedule. 

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-SF-Disarray

Right, got it. So it was fine that one time they did it but now it is bad and wrong and never to be done again. Cool. I simply can't understand why that might be a problem for people.

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6./ZG26_Custard
Just now, -SF-Disarray said:

Right, got it. So it was fine that one time they did it but now it is bad and wrong and never to be done again. Cool. I simply can't understand why that might be a problem for people.

No, it's not fine, but we are not in undiscovered territory here. It seems that part of the reason for the damage overhaul in the first place was probably because people were complaining about AP that they felt was vastly outperforming high explosive rounds and also complaining about weak aircraft airframes. After the update we have the current situation that we now find ourselves in. I want things as realistic as as possible, like I'm sure you do. I hope a study of the damage model and the introduction of a more complex fuel system and possibly API rounds will address the issues that are being pointing out. I suppose we will have to wait and see? 

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QB.Rails
1 hour ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

No, it's not fine, but we are not in undiscovered territory here. It seems that part of the reason for the damage overhaul in the first place was probably because people were complaining about AP that they felt was vastly outperforming high explosive rounds and also complaining about weak aircraft airframes. After the update we have the current situation that we now find ourselves in. I want things as realistic as as possible, like I'm sure you do. I hope a study of the damage model and the introduction of a more complex fuel system and possibly API rounds will address the issues that are being pointing out. I suppose we will have to wait and see? 

The fact HE is doing 3 separate damages and AP 1? Or the fact that the blast radius’s for the 131 and UB’s are possibly too high? Or the fact that simply giving the M2 a shrapnel component could alleviate a lot of frustration with the American planes? Or the fact that the 47 seems to take less damage than other planes in the game? Or the fact that the 51 has a higher percentage chance of having its rudder disabled compared to other planes in the game as well? The dev’s have put a band-aid fix on the 109’s tail section till they could revisit it? I’m sure other things have been sidelined as well till they could get to it as well. The fact that a simple line of text in the effects file for 12-23mm shells can have a more plausible outcome than what we currently have, and would take a days worth of work is silly not to implement in my opinion.

Edited by QB.Rails
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BCI-Nazgul
1 hour ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

No, it's not fine, but we are not in undiscovered territory here. It seems that part of the reason for the damage overhaul in the first place was probably because people were complaining about AP that they felt was vastly outperforming high explosive rounds and also complaining about weak aircraft airframes. After the update we have the current situation that we now find ourselves in. I want things as realistic as as possible, like I'm sure you do. I hope a study of the damage model and the introduction of a more complex fuel system and possibly API rounds will address the issues that are being pointing out. I suppose we will have to wait and see? 

That's fine, but we've been waiting for over a year now.  I don't see any harm in using the mod since it's just a config file update OR as least allowing the server managers to allow the mod.  It would go a long way towards keeping people quiet about the .50s until the devs complete their "study" (whenever that happens.)  Some people here have been making excuses for the devs for over a year now and seems to me that the people that want to fly American planes and paid for them to work correctly deserve a break now as they've been more than patient.   There didn't seem to be a problem giving the 109 an indestructible tail almost as soon as the problem was discovered.  "Wait and see" seems to be anything from 1 year to when we have people on Mars from what I can tell at this juncture.  People are beginning to post negative comments on external social media now about this and that's not good for 1C, but it is understandable at this point.   The longer this goes on the more negative posts are going to appear on YouTube and other places.   I also know people that have quit playing or are playing a lot less because they can't enjoy their favorite planes that's also not good for 1C.

Edited by BCI-Nazgul
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Mac_Messer
30 minutes ago, QB.Rails said:

The fact HE is doing 3 separate damages and AP 1? Or the fact that the blast radius’s for the 131 and UB’s are possibly too high? Or the fact that simply giving the M2 a shrapnel component could alleviate a lot of frustration with the American planes?

There you have it. Because we PAID for it!!!one111:rofl:

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CountZero

If someone just toled mericans how op HE ammo is they would win ww2 in 1943 , just by having .50 HE in anything that shoots

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HR_Zunzun

Why is people so afraid of temporary fixes when everything is a temporary fix and subjected to change through patches?

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von_Tom

 

Temporary fixes may lead to other problems.  Law of unintended consequences, butterfly effect or whatever you want to call it.

 

There is also the question of what the temporary fix might be.  Temporary does not necessarily mean simple, easy or right.

 

This sim will forever be a work in progress and sometimes some stuff happens faster than other stuff.  Priorities and all that.

 

von Tom

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HR_Zunzun

Temporary fixes may lead to other problems. Right.

"Permanent" fixes like the new DM can lead to other problems too. Good things came together with the mess we currently have with the AP vs HE.

Temporary o permanent doesn´t matter. Do what you can with what you have to fix something that is broken. And the HE-AP performance is broken.

I know they have other priorities right now, but when I think of the new product they are developing that portrays mainly planes with a currently broken DM, makes me wonder if their priorities wouldn´t need to shift even if just a smidge.

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BCI-Nazgul
On 3/23/2021 at 10:29 AM, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

 

Edit:-

I think you probably guessed right. 

There are a lot more problems with AP than having a new fuel system should realistically fix.  Aero damage being the biggest of them.

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6./ZG26_Custard
1 hour ago, BCI-Nazgul said:

There are a lot more problems with AP than having a new fuel system should realistically fix.  Aero damage being the biggest of them.

We won't know what will happen until the developers have conducted their study and added new features that may result in changes to the damage model are implemented.  

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gimpy117

temporary fixes are bad, unless it makes parts of the 109 invincible 

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BCI-Nazgul
7 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

We won't know what will happen until the developers have conducted their study and added new features that may result in changes to the damage model are implemented.  

My expectations are very low.

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=621=Samikatz
3 hours ago, gimpy117 said:

temporary fixes are bad, unless it makes parts of the 109 invincible 

 

Wondering when they plan to get around to redoing this "temporary" fix. Was hoping the G-6/Late launch would be their excuse to redo the DM here, was really disappointed when it didn't. Even 37mm HE shots can be totally absorbed by the tail right now, it's very silly

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3 hours ago, =621=Samikatz said:

 

Wondering when they plan to get around to redoing this "temporary" fix. Was hoping the G-6/Late launch would be their excuse to redo the DM here, was really disappointed when it didn't. Even 37mm HE shots can be totally absorbed by the tail right now, it's very silly


Whole heartedly agree. 

Between the FM and its ability to absorb damage into the tail I feel like I'm playing WarThunder arcade. It gets very frustrating.

 

I had to take a break tonight because I put 3 or 4 37mm HE shells from a Yak 9T into one and I don't think it went down. 
Meanwhile I'm getting full on exploded in the P47 from single 20mm hits. 

 

Was ready to tear a tissue in anger I tell you!

Edited by Denum
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-332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138

Same here. I'm at the point where this game is just not enjoyable. I can fly planes i want to and just get frustrated because of the compounding issues that cause imbalance, or I can fly any German plane and just not even feel good about it. I can do 5-6 kills in a Dora and rtb for because of fuel. I can go up in a jug and get one hit on my tail or wing from a blue player spraying and yanking back on the stick and it wont even let me bail out. Getting my P47 thrown around by a 20mm hit while in a turn causing a spin is ridiculous as well. How a small shell like that can toss a 10,000lb plane around while its moving through air is just silly.

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CountZero

Can wait for CB to install IL-2 Stats Mod: Global Aircraft Stats to check how allied airplanes match vs axis before 4.005 and after 4.005.

They were late war focused server that whole time so it should have good data.

 

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DBFlyguy

Geez... you guys are really starting to make me regret my BoN pre-order...   The P-51B is gonna be dang near useless at this rate 😔  I think I'll just keep my wallet closed until this and the indestructible 109  tail "temporary" issue is actually resolved.

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RedKestrel

Even if they never fix the skin damage, If we ever get API that works close to realistically a lot of axis-only experten are going to go absolutely nuts. Make this thread look like a tea party. Right now they can just soak up rounds, flip and flop and kill you with 12.7mm HE, not to mention actual cannon. Hard to do that if you're on fire.

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CountZero
28 minutes ago, DBFlyguy said:

Geez... you guys are really starting to make me regret my BoN pre-order...   The P-51B is gonna be dang near useless at this rate 😔  I think I'll just keep my wallet closed until this and the indestructible 109  tail "temporary" issue is actually resolved.

Oh yes there is P-51B coming to game loloing from Spit14

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=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand

I thought the whole .50 discussion hit peak red whine with that cringe lord making the website, but this thread is becoming tough competition

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27 minutes ago, =EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand said:

I thought the whole .50 discussion hit peak red whine with that cringe lord making the website, but this thread is becoming tough competition

 

I don't think you have seen anything yet. The day the 50's are fixed....the outcry from all the bonafide LW flyers will be out of this world. All pretend Hartmans on here (including you) will have a "reality" check unlike anything in history.

 

I really look forward to that...but I don't have high hopes this will happen any time soon. Hence why this game is shelved for my part. Don't get me wrong...this will happen, otherwise this game will cease to exist.

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=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand
4 minutes ago, NIK14 said:

I don't think you have seen anything yet. The day the 50's are fixed....the outcry from all the bonafide LW flyers will be out of this world. All pretend Hartmans on here (including you) will have a "reality" check unlike anything in history.

 

I really look forward to that...but I don't have high hopes this will happen any time soon. Hence why this game is shelved for my part. Don't get me wrong...this will happen, otherwise this game will cease to exist.

 

well, thanks for proving my point 🤙

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VBF-12_KW
3 minutes ago, =EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand said:

 

well, thanks for proving my point 🤙

 

100% Blue sorties going back to pre-4.005.  Everyone knows why you’re posting in here.  Enjoy it while it lasts.

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QB.Rails
On 3/21/2021 at 1:22 PM, QB.Rails said:

Does anyone here think that 1 gram of HE filler in the 131 creates a blast radius of 1.3 meters? Or even 2 grams of HE filler in the UBs cause a blast radius of 2.2 meters?

Do you think anyone will answer this question?

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CountZero
24 minutes ago, Denum said:

20210217_132124.jpg

Iz that what 131 HE round did ? looks same az wat it does in game after 4.005. Glory to z Germanz!

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=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand
On 3/23/2021 at 5:32 PM, Cass said:

I mean we have. There was a long post comparing AP to HE with a dev response. I can post it but if the response is that 12.7mm AP leaves 1 12.7mm hole, then I'm assuming 20mm AP leaves 1 20mm hole. We've been told time and time again, despite the glaring issues that the DM isn't getting changed. We're running up to a year now either keep highlighting the issues or just deal with it.

 

I´m pretty sure the devs will deal with it (and then I will have a super rude awakening :D), they don´t let themselves get pressured into any project AFAIK. They never have and if they did they would just welcome getting played by the community. I think they learned some lessons regarding that in the old Il2 series. The pe2 for example used to be practically invulnerable. People brought it up for years too and it only just changed a while ago. Pretty sure that it will be the same with .50s but tbh I would rather have them look at it systematically and when they have time than have them throw out hotfixes every 2 weeks.

So just relax .50 isnt that bad :)

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6./ZG26_Custard

At this point in time we don't have much of a choice but to wait until updates are forthcoming or go and fly in another sim until further developments are revealed. In DD 275 this was posted We're working on the improvements in the physical damage system as well, but we'll tell you more about that later.  I will say again, this is not necessarily a new problem, as many posts prior to the major DM overhaul were complaining consistently about underpowered HE rounds and overpowered AP. The bickering back and forth is not going solve anything. Considering that the GB series is in constant development and time and again the developers have under promised and over delivered gives me confidence that this small and dedicated team will undoubtedly surprise us with new features and with further development and updates to the damage modelling. 

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27 minutes ago, =EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand said:

 

looool just triggered the entire .50 mad squad. So yeah I guess everyone knows why I am posting here. What is still left to be discovered is why you and your mates from the ballistics echo chamber have been cry raging yourselves for the past 20 pages of this thread.

I mean the test was ok and there was also some interesting discussion, but now we have some smooth brain comparing accuracy stats for ace in a sortie flights and everyone cheers him like he is the .50 saviour. This thread has just gone uber cringe sorry to break it to you guys.

 

 

Smooth brain? 

 

Delightfully classy guy aren't you.

 

 

My point is that the .50 birds require substantially more skill and time on target? Sometimes the truth hurts.

 

Stats are showing they have the lowest survivability also.

 

This is caused in part by needing to park on someone's 6 o clock and unload 100+ rounds into them leaving you a free target.

 

Doing proper hit and runs is dangerous because the .50s don't cause any aerodynamic penalties.

 

So your intented target is free to Luftwobble pray and spray as you go by.

 

People aren't going to drop this issue.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Denum
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-332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138

I believe on Finnish the top ten planes by k/d include 9 German planes and the tempest which is around 8th place. Not saying this proves anything outright but...

 

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34 minutes ago, Denum said:

People aren't going to drop this issue.

 

They would be wrong to drop it, there's a fundamental issue with the ammunition of a whole subset of aircraft, and consequently the damage profiles of many other aircraft.  Yes, the developers have said that they will eventually look at the problem when time allows but that isn't a directive to stifle discussion (no matter how mundane) about the problem. Remedy's latest aircraft stats update is a blessed one; on both Finnish and Loose Deuce, the top twenty aircraft by lethality are pretty much exclusively German whilst the American aircraft sit nicely in the top ten for worst durability. I look forward to Combat Box eventually revealing their own aircraft statistics.

 

Bang the drum some more, that's all I'd say.

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HR_Zunzun

It is funny how some people complain that those posts are very much alive when most of the activity is to answer to people like them. Used to be to the "fact denials", but now seems that trolls are joining in.

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1 hour ago, =EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand said:

 

well, thanks for proving my point 🤙

 

No worries...do you want me to send you plastic knights cross from amazon? Or do you need plastic oak leaves at this stage? :)

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Mac_Messer
1 hour ago, =EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand said:

 

I´m pretty sure the devs will deal with it (and then I will have a super rude awakening :D), they don´t let themselves get pressured into any project AFAIK. They never have and if they did they would just welcome getting played by the community. I think they learned some lessons regarding that in the old Il2 series. The pe2 for example used to be practically invulnerable. People brought it up for years too and it only just changed a while ago. Pretty sure that it will be the same with .50s but tbh I would rather have them look at it systematically and when they have time than have them throw out hotfixes every 2 weeks.

So just relax .50 isnt that bad :)

The way the .50cal Karens are threatening to not buy any GB copies ever again is indeed hilarious to bystanders. To developpers I think it is just sad. You could tell some people here that throwing insults at them isn`t going to change their reality but I doubt that would work. Especially when the 50cal threads keep missing the point of DM issues entirely. Demanding HE dynamics and ballistics for an AP (Incendiary - less) round as a "quick fix" too, since the usermade mod istn`t nearly enough to boost their egos online. Fixated on 50cal because they`re CUSTOMERS and they PAID for it. Uh uh, nobody else paid for it...right.

And to think if not the insults, maybe we could all benefit from AP overhaul. Nah, not possible.

Edited by Mac_Messer
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