Main gun smoke effects

[FTC_Chilemike]

First ride after patch.  Did a Panther mission and noted that when firing the main gun your vision is obscured until after the round hits making it difficult to bracket a target at longer ranges.  Would this be a more realistic representation or a bit over done?

[CCG_Pips]

with my own opinion (but never fighted in a real tank), it is a little bit over done.....

[FTC_Chilemike]

Agreed

 

[LachenKrieg]

4 hours ago, chilemike said:

First ride after patch.  Did a Panther mission and noted that when firing the main gun your vision is obscured until after the round hits making it difficult to bracket a target at longer ranges.  Would this be a more realistic representation or a bit over done?

I would be interested to know if you noticed this in tanks from both sides? I am definitely seeing this in the Tiger.

 

This issue seems to be slightly different from the complaint some have with the new terrain roughness in that while one could argue/question whether the ground itself was actually that rough, all five crew members of a real world tank traversing the terrain modeled in-game would experience something close to what we are seeing.

 

But in the case of the gun smoke effect, we are only able to see it from the gunners view.

 

The linked video below gives a few examples of the extent of gun fire plume from the Tiger tanks 88mm gun, and while the plume is quite large, it is hard to tell if it would affect the gunners vision to the extent it now does in-game.

 

Part of the problem might be that in a real tank, you had both the Gunner and the Commander ranging targets. So the view to target and the guns effect was taken from multiple perspectives. And it was easy for the Gunner and the Commander to communicate what they were seeing. But when playing alone in-game, we are not only confined to a single position, but the settings you make are deleted if you so much as dare to get another perspective.

 

So the hope is, any consideration given to the gun fire effect should also include consideration of the settings a player makes at each of the stations. I should be able to set my drivers field of view, the zoom, range and elevation of my gunners sight, take control of the bow machine gun, and point my commanders binoculars in the desired direction without the settings changing as I go from position to position.

 

 

[LachenKrieg]

Here is another video showing more examples of the gunfire plume. In one scene you can even see the commander site from on top of the turret, and I have images that also show the commander siting targets from outside the turret, so it must have been a little bit of a luxury for the commander to get out of the turret when the threat was considered to be at a safe distance. There is little doubt that the guns exhaust fumes inside the tank caused problems for the crew, especially during heavy fighting, and it is probably fair to say that the plume on the outside also created a certain amount of obstruction especially for targets at longer range. But just how much is more difficult to say.

 

Anyone interested should pay special attention to the two scenes starting at about 12:30 in the time line if you want to better appreciate a Tiger moving across rough terrain at speed. Notice how much deflection there is in the Tigers gun as the hull goes up and down over the terrain bumps.

 

[69th_chuter]

The cross country clips mentioned at ~12:30 in the last video seem to be accelerated for dramatic effect.  Just the way it looks to me.

[LachenKrieg]

48 minutes ago, chuter said:

The cross country clips mentioned at ~12:30 in the last video seem to be accelerated for dramatic effect.  Just the way it looks to me.

You could be right @chuter, one can never be too sure about anything found on the internet. He does seem to be kicking up the dirt though, so to me it still looks like he is in one of the higher road gears. But the point was the up and down deflection of the main gun. In terms of what we are seeing in-game since the terrain update, here we have a pretty good representation of a real world Tiger going cross-country over rough terrain. I can pretty much generate a very similar image by recording my game play in Tank Crew from the same angle. 

 

I just though it was sort of a testament to the amount of detail that goes into the IL2 product line. If you are into realistic WWII, this is really the sweet spot as far as I am concerned. But the OP's question about the gunfire plume is a valid concern I am sure for a number of people here. I find it challenging to control the tanks as a single player. TBH, it is much easier when you have a second person with you. There is just too much going on. But in real life, it would be impossible to fight as a single person in any one of these tanks.

[FTC_Chilemike]

My thoughts exactly about the commander ranging targets from the turret in actual combat and it being difficult to to ALL the crew jobs in single player.

[69th_chuter]

My thoughts about that particular video clip being sped up (I should add "slightly") are that it is likely from the original film, the Germans wanting to show more impressive performance (maybe) to the general public. 

 

To the point of the muzzle plume, I've noticed there doesn't seem to be any distinctive difference to plume shape whether there is a muzzle brake or not.  There also doesn't seem to be any dust kick-up, but that, too, would probably be an all or nothing feature not taking ground surface (or muzzle) characteristics into consideration so maybe one shouldn't make too much noise over it.

[LachenKrieg]

1 hour ago, chuter said:

My thoughts about that particular video clip being sped up (I should add "slightly") are that it is likely from the original film, the Germans wanting to show more impressive performance (maybe) to the general public. 

 

To the point of the muzzle plume, I've noticed there doesn't seem to be any distinctive difference to plume shape whether there is a muzzle brake or not.  There also doesn't seem to be any dust kick-up, but that, too, would probably be an all or nothing feature not taking ground surface (or muzzle) characteristics into consideration so maybe one shouldn't make too much noise over it.

I agree, you might be right, maybe it was a propaganda show. But regardless of the speed, lets say the tank in the image is going between 15 and 25 kph, the point is the way the real tank responds as it moves over rough terrain is pretty much what we see in-game. So I think from this we can say that the in-game model is reasonable. Some people have questioned how realistic the latest patch is. The hope is that the linked videos help answer that at least in part.

 

I am not sure if you are talking about the muzzle flash, or the plume of smoke that follows, but I think the OP's question was related to the problem with ranging targets because they are harder to see through the smoke. The muzzle flash from a gun is usually a distinct feature that can be reproduced like a signature, but the smoke plume that follows can change a lot depending on wind, temperature and what not. So I am not sure if we are following each other.

 

I planned on taking note of the question raised by the OP as I play in different tanks, but I would expect that the smoke plume following a shot to vary a bit if the model is accurate. Even if the gunner's vision could be affected by the smoke plume, you wouldn't expect smoke that gets blown around to look the same for every shot.

 

And again, regarding the kick-up I now realize that you might be talking about what we see in-game, while I was talking about the video. There is so much dust being kicked-up that you almost lose sight of the tank.

 

 

Edited January 3, 2021 by LachenKrieg

[69th_chuter]

I'm in agreement regarding vehicle movement.

 

With regard to "dust kick-up" I'm referring to actual dust on the ground kicked up by the muzzle blast.  This effect, if modeled (doesn't appear to be) would vary based on terrain type and the worst effect would be from terrain featuring very fine, loose and dry dirt or sand and I'm not seeing any of this.  The muzzle blast (at least with the P4), both the flash and smoke, is modeled to reflect a muzzle brake.  One could go on for days discussing its accuracy, or lack there-of, of depiction of course, but a muzzle brake is accounted for and I would think that would reduce the smoke blinding effect (vs. the same gun without a brake).

 

The question of whether the gunner should have his view blocked so much by the resulting smoke is ... a little subjective, maybe, because of all the other potential variables (not the least of which is wind) and I agree with you on that, as well ... again.

 

PS.  I got to work on the P-63 today.  WOOHOO