Il2 Sturmovik - A franchise of non finished combat sims / A suggested future

[PB0_Roll]

How many coop missions in your game directory before adding your own, again ?

[6./ZG26_Custard]

1 hour ago, KGM_Roll said:

How many coop missions in your game directory before adding your own, again ?

If you're concerned about the "lack" of cooperative missions why don't you check out Pat Wilson campaign generator? 

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/forum/99-pat-wilson-campaign-generator/

 

[PB0_Roll]

I'm concerned about new players. I do fly PWCG. Il2 1946 had ngen for coops, it was built-in. Dgen for single wasn't ideal, but it worked. GB has a meh SP career system and no coop generator system. I'm OK with it since I have workarounds, but workarounds won't do with new players. New players need intuitive GUI and no hassle to get single/multiplayer fun. Game is not fun for new players.

[blue_max]

This game needs more polish for sure. Just basics like choosing airplanes. It's functional, barely, but it doesn't really convey any sense of 'look how awesome this plane is and how much effort we put into it'

[DD_Arthur]

Yep, if you have the attention span of a Fruit Fly then pc flight sims are always going to be a no no.       Merry Christmas ?

[SAS_Storebror]

"If it was hard to write, it should be hard to understand."

Good laugh, great meme, perfect way to ruin a game's business model.

Pair this with a questionable issue prioritisation and you've almost nailed it.

 

Just my $0.02.

 

 and 

Mike

[BraveSirRobin]

On 12/25/2020 at 11:47 AM, SAS_Storebror said:

 

Good laugh, great meme, perfect way to ruin a game's business model.

Mike

They’re releasing a new module every 2 years.  When is the ruinous business model going to become apparent to us common folk?

[SAS_Storebror]

 

Just keep enjoying warmth and comfort.

 

Mike

[BraveSirRobin]

Yeah, the game is doomed and you’re the only one smart enough to see it coming.  Sure thing.

[SAS_Storebror]

No Sir, everything's fine and historically correct.

109s were known to have concrete tails and cal .50s only used AP ammo punching tiny clean holes into the void, for pacifistic reasons.

And if minor adjustments to these two would be required, then it'd be way less important than let's say driveable flak cars, fancy pilot dresses and bumpy grassland.

 

It's cool to focus on the really important parts of a recreational scenery travelling game.

 

Mike

[Lusekofte]

On 12/25/2020 at 3:17 PM, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

If you're concerned about the "lack" of cooperative missions why don't you check out Pat Wilson campaign generator? 

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/forum/99-pat-wilson-campaign-generator/

 

Yeah we use it two times a week. Excellent tool. And when a patch make things difficult we use Vanderns easy mission generator. I find this game at it's very best using coop. 

15 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Yeah, the game is doomed and you’re the only one smart enough to see it coming.  Sure thing.

Let me show you a mirror

You stalk every person giving this sim a critique. Yet describing your own conduct to perfection, but ment for others. 

 

[BraveSirRobin]

5 hours ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

 

You stalk every person giving this sim a critique. Yet describing your own conduct to perfection, but ment for others. 

 

 

He isn’t “critiquing” the game.  He says it’s doomed.  Because of some minor issue that he wants fixed.  The devs clearly don’t grasp his brilliance.  So they are doomed.  Business model ruined.  The horror...

There are plenty of features in this game that are worthy of critiquing.  My personal favorite is the fact that we can’t set up multiple controller profiles like we can in RoF.  But declaring the game doomed because the devs are ignoring the issue that you think should be changed is just idiotic.

[sniperton]

39 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

He isn’t “critiquing” the game.  He says it’s doomed.  Because of some minor issue that he wants fixed.  The devs clearly don’t grasp his brilliance.  So they are doomed.  Business model ruined.  The horror...

There are plenty of features in this game that are worthy of critiquing.  My personal favorite is the fact that we can’t set up multiple controller profiles like we can in RoF.  But declaring the game doomed because the devs are ignoring the issue that you think should be changed is just idiotic.

1. Read back, "doomed" is your word of choice.

2. It's very much a matter of personal preferences what one considers a minor or a major issue.

3. We're in the Complaints section here. A "complaint is "an expression of pain, dissatisfaction, or resentment". What do you think your contribution is good for? Can you offer any cure or consolation, or you're only here to teach others a lesson?

4. It's indeed not considered good business strategy to ignore what several customers regard as a major issue.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

2 hours ago, sniperton said:

4. It's indeed not considered good business strategy to ignore what several customers regard as a major issue.

It's not being ignored. 

 

[BraveSirRobin]

4 hours ago, sniperton said:

 

2. It's very much a matter of personal preferences what one considers a minor or a major issue.

 

Damned near nothing we complain about is a business model breaking problem.  And that is exactly what he’s calling this.  Work on all other features is a waste of resources until his concerns are resolved.  We’re Doooooooomed!
 

[-332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138]

I don't post often in these forums because it almost always turns into a mess whenever someone offers criticism. However, I will say this: I have absolutely loved this sim since i got into it in 2015. It provided a good balance of realism and accessibility. The immersion is excellent and I really liked where it looked like it was going. The fact remains that there should be a better single player experience as it is always mentioned that a majority of the customer base is single players and not online players whenever there is a dispute about damage model or netcode. COOP would also make the game immensely more attractive to new players. Not Pat Wilson. It works and is awesome but it is not part of the game that people pay for. I have bought all the modules (up until BOB) and have bought many of them for friends that were interested in flight sims  as a way to support the small development teams efforts. I no longer promote or buy these products nor do I plan to any longer as the game has too many core issues that go unfixed while new modules are released. If the goal is to generate revenue then more effort should be made to fix these issues. I don't presume to know the business model that 1C is using however I do know that I would gladly have bought more copies of what they sell to support them if they were going in a direction I liked which has not been the case over the last year.  

[sniperton]

1 hour ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Damned near nothing we complain about is a business model breaking problem.  And that is exactly what he’s calling this.  Work on all other features is a waste of resources until his concerns are resolved.  We’re Doooooooomed!

Dear BS Robin, take a nap, re-read, and please consider that people of differing opinions are not hostile to this game. They may or may not forgive you for your continuous trolling, but they are not hostile. Period.

They.Are.Simply.Leaving.Unless.Their.Opinion.Is.Heard.And.Their.Complaints.Are.Addressed.And.They.Won't.Support.This.Game.Any.More.

So simple. And honestly, I am not You who calls others an "idiot", but I'm pretty sure you're doing more harm to this game than anyone who's critical about it.

6 hours ago, sniperton said:

3. We're in the Complaints section here. A "complaint is "an expression of pain, dissatisfaction, or resentment". What do you think your contribution is good for? Can you offer any cure or consolation, or you're only here to teach others a lesson?

Edited December 28, 2020 by sniperton

[BraveSirRobin]

9 minutes ago, sniperton said:

Dear BS Robin, take a nap, re-read, and please consider that people of differing opinions are not hostile to this game. They may or may not forgive you for your continuous trolling, but they are not hostile. Period.

They.Are.Simply.Leaving.Unless.Their.Opinion.Is.Heard.And.Their.Complaints.Are.Addressed.And.They.Won't.Support.This.Game.Any.More.

So simple. And honestly, I am not You who calls others an "idiot", but I'm pretty sure you're doing more harm to this game than anyone who's critical about it.

This is a public forum, champ.  You’re posting your opinions and I’m posting mine.  And if you think that there are currently business model killing problems with this game.  Problems that require work on all other features (like AAA trucks) to be postponed until said problems are fixed, then I’d say that you’re the one who needs to go take a nap.

[DD_Arthur]

32 minutes ago, sniperton said:

They.Are.Simply.Leaving.

 

Strange. In the last six hours this forum has gained one hundred and forty three new members.

 

It would appear they are simply joining too.

 

[BraveSirRobin]

They probably just signed up to tell the developer why their business model will fail.  
 

 

[Guest deleted@83466]

To improve their business model, I propose they send a free bottle of Stolichnaya along with the sale of every module purchased during a non-discount period. ?

Edited December 28, 2020 by SeaSerpent

[Styx13]

On 12/25/2020 at 2:30 AM, DD_Arthur said:

IL2 GBS coop

 

 

Excuse me, but I thought this sim is made for professional, semi-professianl SP users with a huge amount of historical interests and some knowledge behind. As far as I know for these kind of individuals the coop battles are not meaning a solution. (Especially when flying with US P-38's over Stalingrad.)   

On 12/27/2020 at 12:12 PM, 216th_LuseKofte said:

Yeah we use it two times a week. Excellent tool. And when a patch make things difficult we use Vanderns easy mission generator. I find this game at it's very best using coop. 

Let me show you a mirror

You stalk every person giving this sim a critique. Yet describing your own conduct to perfection, but ment for others. 

 

 

I fully agree with this. I have just put very simple questions and raise an important topic, but the devs decided not to respond intelligently, but became offended, and postet LOL's, ROFL's whatever those are meaning. ? Very annoying behaviour.  

 

16 hours ago, -332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138 said:

I don't post often in these forums because it almost always turns into a mess whenever someone offers criticism. However, I will say this: I have absolutely loved this sim since i got into it in 2015. It provided a good balance of realism and accessibility. The immersion is excellent and I really liked where it looked like it was going. The fact remains that there should be a better single player experience as it is always mentioned that a majority of the customer base is single players and not online players whenever there is a dispute about damage model or netcode. COOP would also make the game immensely more attractive to new players. Not Pat Wilson. It works and is awesome but it is not part of the game that people pay for. I have bought all the modules (up until BOB) and have bought many of them for friends that were interested in flight sims  as a way to support the small development teams efforts. I no longer promote or buy these products nor do I plan to any longer as the game has too many core issues that go unfixed while new modules are released. If the goal is to generate revenue then more effort should be made to fix these issues. I don't presume to know the business model that 1C is using however I do know that I would gladly have bought more copies of what they sell to support them if they were going in a direction I liked which has not been the case over the last year.  

 

Fully agree, thanks. 

15 hours ago, sniperton said:

Dear BS Robin, take a nap, re-read, and please consider that people of differing opinions are not hostile to this game. They may or may not forgive you for your continuous trolling, but they are not hostile. Period.

They.Are.Simply.Leaving.Unless.Their.Opinion.Is.Heard.And.Their.Complaints.Are.Addressed.And.They.Won't.Support.This.Game.Any.More.

So simple. And honestly, I am not You who calls others an "idiot", but I'm pretty sure you're doing more harm to this game than anyone who's critical about it.

 

You are right. I do not pay attention to what BSRobin writes. I suggest simnly neglecting his biased and pre-payed opinion. 

 

14 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

They probably just signed up to tell the developer why their business model will fail.  
 

 

 

And if this is the case and were I one the devs, I would reconsider the strategy. ?

[BraveSirRobin]

29 minutes ago, Styx13 said:

 

And if this is the case and were I one the devs, I would reconsider the strategy. ?

No you wouldn’t.  You’ve made it quite clear that outside opinions have no impact whatsoever on your choice of of strategy.

[SAS_Storebror]

Rule of Thumbs: No customer complains just for the sake of complaining. They have better ways to waste their time.

Ignore their complaints, be it because you think they're not worth considering, be it because you think different, be it just because you are ignorant yourself, the outcome is always the same: Your customers will find better ways to waste their money, too.

 

By the by, if you disagree with statement no.1, you fall into category no.3.

 

Mike

[BraveSirRobin]

I’m relatively certain that the developer is already aware that some of their decisions are not popular with everyone and in some cases those people will leave.  
 

On the plus side, it looks like 143 people just jumped in to take your place.

[cardboard_killer]

On 12/26/2020 at 2:27 PM, BraveSirRobin said:

Yeah, the game is doomed and you’re the only one smart enough to see it coming.  Sure thing.

 

Well, of course it's doomed. What flight simulator has lasted more than ten years?

 

17 hours ago, -332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138 said:

I don't post often in these forums

 

Don't post often? You have one post and that is it.

[DD_Arthur]

25 minutes ago, Styx13 said:

Excuse me, but I thought this sim is made for professional, semi-professianl SP users with a huge amount of historical interests and some knowledge behind. As far as I know for these kind of individuals the coop battles are not meaning a solution. (Especially when flying with US P-38's over Stalingrad.)  

 

This game is a piece of commercial software that falls into the 'entertainment' category.  It is made for whoever is prepared to hand over the asking price - simple as that.  All it's commercial competitors, be they DCS, Cliffs of Dover or War Thunder are the same  You are quite welcome to hang whatever hilarious, pompous or deluded misconceptions you may carry onto this statement but it remains a basic truth.   

 

Coop is a multiplayer mode.  I'm not sure what point it is you are trying to make but since we know from your previous posts that you are a self-declared expert with some knowledge in your behind,  let me point out this is a takeoff from an airfield on the Belgian/Dutch borders on the Bodenplatte map.  Congrats on identifying the correct continent! 

 

1 hour ago, Styx13 said:

. I have just put very simple questions and raise an important topic, but the devs decided not to respond intelligently, but became offended, and postet LOL's, ROFL's whatever those are meaning. ? Very annoying behaviour. 

 

   The producer of the series did not become offended but he did deride you and scorned your opinion.  I thought it was a funny and intelligent reply.  

[PB0_Roll]

14 minutes ago, cardboard_killer said:

 

Well, of course it's doomed. What flight simulator has lasted more than ten years?

 

 

As far as being played, too many to quote them all. 

 

As far as being supported with mods, too many to quote them all.

 

As far as being used to sell new additions, can't remember any other than FSX. The other russian sim will soon fall into this category, most likely. This russian sim too.

 

The thing with flight sims is supporters will usually buy even if they don't play, just to support the genre. I have bought almost every ROF plane, but didn't fly most due too a very sterile environment and very questionable AI. Mods helped and I could endure flying two careers (IIRC) with reasonable immersion, despite the dead frontline and the stupid "nothing but graphics" random flak. Bought nearly every plane of the present serie but again seldom fly due to sterile environment, and other sims more fun to fly in solo/coop. I bought because I trusted Jason to be able to make those russians devs understand the notion of single player/coop fun with a strong relation to friendly assets and a sense of immersion.

 

My hope is slowly fading sadly, so unless something is done and done fast BoN could be my last buy. No hard feelings, and I know that if I'm the only one leaving I won't be missed. Stopping/delaying buying the other russian sim for a time seems to have produced results still, so I could very well be back after a few months/years hiatus.

[cardboard_killer]

4 minutes ago, KGM_Roll said:

As far as being used to sell new additions, can't remember any other than FSX.

 

I can think of at least thirty.

[PB0_Roll]

32 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

 

This game is a piece of commercial software that falls into the 'entertainment' category. 

 

That is exactly what I, as most, used this "complaints" sub forum to ask for.

 

Others use it either to provide assistance (thanks to them) or to dissuade complaints (not helping sales imho, but  they know better).

[BraveSirRobin]

4 minutes ago, KGM_Roll said:

 

My hope is slowly fading sadly

You own RoF.  You don’t play it.  You bought 5 modules of BoX anyways.  Why? 

[Lusekofte]

2 hours ago, Styx13 said:

Excuse me, but I thought this sim is made for professional, semi-professianl SP users with a huge amount of historical interests and some knowledge behind. As far as I know for these kind of individuals the coop battles are not meaning a solution. (Especially when flying with US P-38's over Stalingrad.)   

Coop can be made exactly as you want them. And that give opportunity for all. 

I am in ww 2 sim because I have a WW2 aviation interest. It does not mean I am not able to fool around too. I care not what other people's preferences are. But flying coop with friends is the most historical resemblance you ever get. You do not have to deal with stupid ai wingmen , do not mind stupid living wingmen. And you do not have to deal with opurtunistic online players whom care not for anything else than points. Patrick wilson mission generator give you plenty of opportunity Syn Vanderns too. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by 216th_LuseKofte

[Styx13]

1 hour ago, DD_Arthur said:

that you are a self-declared expert with some knowledge in your behind

 

You wrong and I do not understand your direct voice. I am declared as an expert in WWII air combat by one of the European universities, now I am the leading researcher of an archive dealing with WWII documents. I also published several articles and books, but nevermind.  

1 hour ago, DD_Arthur said:

Belgian/Dutch borders on the Bodenplatte map.  Congrats on identifying the correct continent!

 

I am just loking the title, which is BoS, not BoP. I'm not interested in others sim experience, so havent watched yet. ?

1 hour ago, KGM_Roll said:

 

As far as being played, too many to quote them all. 

 

As far as being supported with mods, too many to quote them all.

 

As far as being used to sell new additions, can't remember any other than FSX. The other russian sim will soon fall into this category, most likely. This russian sim too.

 

The thing with flight sims is supporters will usually buy even if they don't play, just to support the genre. I have bought almost every ROF plane, but didn't fly most due too a very sterile environment and very questionable AI. Mods helped and I could endure flying two careers (IIRC) with reasonable immersion, despite the dead frontline and the stupid "nothing but graphics" random flak. Bought nearly every plane of the present serie but again seldom fly due to sterile environment, and other sims more fun to fly in solo/coop. I bought because I trusted Jason to be able to make those russians devs understand the notion of single player/coop fun with a strong relation to friendly assets and a sense of immersion.

 

My hope is slowly fading sadly, so unless something is done and done fast BoN could be my last buy. No hard feelings, and I know that if I'm the only one leaving I won't be missed. Stopping/delaying buying the other russian sim for a time seems to have produced results still, so I could very well be back after a few months/years hiatus.

 

Agreed.

[DD_Arthur]

19 minutes ago, Styx13 said:

You wrong and I do not understand your direct voice. I am declared as an expert in WWII air combat by one of the European universities, now I am the leading researcher of an archive dealing with WWII documents. I also published several articles and books, but nevermind. 

 

Please, don't be shy; tell us about your books and articles as I'm very interested.  Although I'm not a historian I do have degree in history from a European University. 

Lets see what you've got

 

30 minutes ago, Styx13 said:

 I'm not interested in others sim experience, 

 

Yes, it's evident you lack something. I think that might have been why the producer laughed at you.

[Enceladus828]

2 hours ago, KGM_Roll said:

My hope is slowly fading sadly, so unless something is done and done fast BoN could be my last buy. No hard feelings, and I know that if I'm the only one leaving I won't be missed. Stopping/delaying buying the other russian sim for a time seems to have produced results still, so I could very well be back after a few months/years hiatus.

For me, I began losing faith in this game when the parachute bug wasn’t fixed or even addressed. I thought that it would be fixed at updates 2.012, or 3.001 when BoK was released, or shortly after, but it wasn’t. I even held my breath that it would be fixed in 3.006 which contained many improvements and fixes, or in the following patch in which pilot models that had parachutes were added, but it was still no. Eventually I began giving up on this game as this issue never happened in IL-2 1946 and CloD. I even told myself that if development of this game at that very moment stopped, I’d be indifferent about it.

But then when BoN was announced and I saw the plane set, my faith of the game was pretty much restored and I am grateful that development of this game is continuing.

I just hope that the parachute bug can be fixed or even addressed during BoN, and things such as drop tanks and improved radio comms can be added as well from now till the final release of BoN.

 

[Monksilver]

 

 

 

 

I can understand people want something to be better, no matter how good it is to start with. But when contemplating whether the developers should make changes for commercial reasons it is worth bearing in mind the story of American Airlines and the olives. Would we like an olive, yes we would, but it isn't necessarily sound commercial sense to give us one.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Monksilver
Good point made by SAS_Storebror

[SAS_Storebror]

11 hours ago, Monksilver said:

I would not expect someone who is a declared WWII air combat expert who has written books on the subject and is a leading researcher on WWII archive to refer to his interest in WWII aviation as a mere "hobby". There is a clear contradiction in terms here and the 2 propositions appear mutually exclusive.

Not sure whether it's a clever move to accuse each other of being a liar, regardless how much you wrap these words in cottonwool.

 

11 hours ago, Monksilver said:

I can understand people want something to be better, no matter how good it is to start with. But when contemplating whether the developers should make changes for commercial reasons it is worth bearing in mind the story of American Airlines and the olives. Would we like an olive, yes we would, but it isn't necessarily sound commercial sense to give us one.

I see where you're coming from and if what I'm complaining about was the proverbial olive of this game, I would agree.

For instance, I could ask for different german accents in the radio chatter (and other language accents as well, wherever they'd fit), but is that really important to the gameplay? Probably not too much. So I'm not complaining.

What I'm complaining about though - the indestructible tail of the main frontline axis fighter in combination with inappropriate ('44 onwards) and generally nerfed main western allied fighter ammo - is of a different importance by far and IMHO that's unarguably. If this was an olive, it's weight would be 10 tons each and it was mankinds staple food.

 

Mike

[sniperton]

And now we have this added, "an update induced bug" that makes AP like rain drops on the roof:

 

[unreasonable]

Bugs are bugs - every update seems to get one or two, they get fixed. Completely different issue from the OP's list of complaints, and his incredulity that the developers do not spend time explaining to him personally, in detail, why they cannot or will not deliver all of this right now, or at all.

 

Everyone seems to be going a bit unreasonable at the moment. Lock-down derangement syndrome?

[Lusekofte]

16 hours ago, Enceladus said:

For me, I began losing faith in this game when the parachute bug wasn’t fixed or even addressed. I thought that it would be fixed at updates 2.012, or 3.001 when BoK was released, or shortly after, but it wasn’t. I even held my breath that it would be fixed in 3.006 which contained many improvements and fixes, or in the following patch in which pilot models that had parachutes were added, but it was still no. Eventually I began giving up on this game as this issue never happened in IL-2 1946 and CloD. I even told myself that if development of this game at that very moment stopped, I’d be indifferent about it.

But then when BoN was announced and I saw the plane set, my faith of the game was pretty much restored and I am grateful that development of this game is continuing.

I just hope that the parachute bug can be fixed or even addressed during BoN, and things such as drop tanks and improved radio comms can be added as well from now till the final release of BoN.

 

I never really lost hope myself, I just felt phased out. And that is just not the same. I acknowledge Jason's have a budget to think of. 

I know my vision of the game might not be economical smart move. Jason's attempt to improve his budget by making bobp was the end of the line for me. I knew right then that the increased complexity of DM and FM will not happen. And that is a shame, because as I stated many times before, without fixing and implement the small stuff , this sim / game will only be a shining gorgeous empty shell compared to what it could have been. Of cource this is a bit of polarized view, I do understand Dev's willingness to accommodate new toys for the louder majority, but in the long run the game loose following this strategy. 

And yes I can see improvement's like this come slow and steady, I can also see Jason want them, but as the busyness model is working to date, he cannot take money for them. 

Now he offer two or three packs at the time. In the midst of a serious pandemic. What we talk about is not going to happen. But I do understand frustration of those complaining. They all see what this game could have been, this game is just too good to abandon, yet lack so much

Edited December 29, 2020 by 216th_LuseKofte