P-40 or Hurricane, how to continue?

[Noisemaker]

After a long delay of Xsolla blocking my credit card for "security reasons" (Even though it's the only card I've used to buy all of my IL-2 and COD products, but that's another issue), I finally have the Hurricane.

I'm about half way through a Moscow career in a P-40, and now I have the opportunity to transfer squadrons (The same airfield none the less!) to a Hurricane squadron.  I haven't had a chance to fly the Hurricane yet due to that pesky work problem, and will likely get some hours in on the weekend to try her out, but I wanted to ask the community their thoughts on the pros and cons between the P-40 and the Russian Hurricane varient, and whether a change from the P-40 would be an upgrade, downgrade, or a lateral move.

Thoughts?

[Bremspropeller]

Should be a slight downgrade performance-wise, but at least you get a manifold pressure regulator. Armament might be a good bit of an improvement.

[Lusekofte]

It got awesome weapons. 
I regard both to be favorites. But US planes are simply suffering from a syndrome in this game. You simply do not get the pro’s in the same level as cons. 
You do that in a Hurricane. Yes it is slower. But it is maneuverable and stable

[DD_Arthur]

The Hurricane will run rings around the P40 and give a.i. 109's a very hard time.

 

 If you choose the .303 armament be prepared to be shot down by your targets wingman. You'll become target fixated as you keep knock splinters off the 109 up front as it continues to fly  onwards and upwards.

 

Take the Russian cannon option and get in close.  Give 'em one good squirt of everything and break off for a look-see.

  As for ammo; in this configuration you get three good squirts ....and a dribble. 

 

The .303's are surprisingly good against the He111 btw.  Lots of flamers! 

 

As to relative speeds;  downhill,  no doubt the P40 would be a little faster....eventually.  However, the Hurricane is the more all round, useable package.

 

Edit; did the USSR receive the four x 20mm version?   4 x 20mm weapon performance?  Press once :  cripple target/kill pilot.  Press twice :   

Edited November 18, 2020 by DD_Arthur

[=621=Samikatz]

P-40's advantages are heavier armament out of the box, a higher dive speed, and in general better controllability at speed. The Hurricane will out-accelerate, out-turn, and out-climb it, especially with the XX engine. Top speed is dependent on altitude, but the P-40's engine is (a-historically) more tempermental so running it at full tilt is less of a sure thing

[Missionbug]

I have started a Moscow career with the Hurricane, downside is that is limited to using the 303s at the moment, not great for inflicting damage on the 109 unless you get it in the engine area, however, you turn well so can keep avoiding the 109.

 

You will not become a ace with the Hurricane with that armament in this time period, hopefully though the career will eventually give us the Russian mods later on, just keep ducking and diving long enough to stay out of the firing line and stay alive and it could become a rather interesting career later on though.

 

Take care and be safe.

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.

[Monksilver]

14 hours ago, Missionbug said:

 

 

You will not become a ace with the Hurricane with that armament in this time period,

 

I disagree, you can become an ace, I'm not the best but managed it. I was doing a Moscow career in iron man mode. I managed 30 missions with 18 kills, I think it was 10 BF109s, 5 BF110 and 5 HE111s.  A few flamers including 109s but most kills were damage to the engine causing the enemy to conk out on the way home. But  a fair few missions where I sprayed a plane to no effect. I liked the way the weakness of the ammo meant you have to try to target the engines rather than just hit any old part with a cannon. But you can probably guess my fate, I got too focused on trying to hit a HE111's engine and forgot to check my 6 - ☠️?

Edited November 19, 2020 by Monksilver

[No105_Swoose]

58 minutes ago, Missionbug said:

I have started a Moscow career with the Hurricane, downside is that is limited to using the 303s at the moment, not great for inflicting damage on the 109 unless you get it in the engine area, however, you turn well so can keep avoiding the 109.

 

 

Salute! @Noisemaker you may want to consider trying a Hurricane career using the excellent Pat Wilson's Campaign Generator (PWCG) 3rd party add-on.  Maybe not as historically accurate as the stock career mode, but PWCG gives you all the Hurricane armament and engine options in a Battle of Moscow campaign from the get-go.  I'm currently flying a PWCG Hurricane career with the 651st Fighter Aviation Regiment on the Stalingrad map.  Very challenging but enjoyable.

[sniperton]

4 hours ago, Noisemaker said:

I'm about half way through a Moscow career in a P-40, and now I have the opportunity to transfer squadrons (The same airfield none the less!) to a Hurricane squadron.  I haven't had a chance to fly the Hurricane yet due to that pesky work problem, and will likely get some hours in on the weekend to try her out, but I wanted to ask the community their thoughts on the pros and cons between the P-40 and the Russian Hurricane varient, and whether a change from the P-40 would be an upgrade, downgrade, or a lateral move.

If you're still in Moscow, you can only get .303cals; no Russian equipment so far.

With .303cals your lethality will suffer a lot compared to .50cals.

You'll have more opportunity to hit, but less chance to kill.

Expect situations like "I peppered him, I peppered him, but he flies away as nothing happened!".

[Missionbug]

11 hours ago, Monksilver said:

 

I disagree, you can become an ace, I'm not the best but managed it. I was doing a Moscow career in iron man mode. I managed 30 missions with 18 kills, I think it was 10 BF109s, 5 BF110 and 5 HE111s.  A few flamers including 109s but most kills were damage to the engine causing the enemy to conk out on the way home. But  a fair few missions where I sprayed a plane to no effect. I liked the way the weakness of the ammo meant you have to try to target the engines rather than just hit any only part with a cannon. But you can probably guess my fate, I got too focused on trying to hit a HE111's engine and forgot to check my 6 - ☠️?

 

Was that using the 303 all through the campaign though?

 

My hope is that as I go through the campaign there will be the chance to change armaments, so possibly my chances will then improve, right now all I can do is pepper any 109 I get near to and hope to do enough damage to at least make it disengage.

 

Twice I made a 109 blaze but was very close up, downside is one of my AI team mates rammed me in a attempt to get the same target so I had to re-fly, annoying really as I have pain in arms and neck that prevents me flying much, the result of the re-fly was never the same and the best I got was to see aircraft sculk away streaming fluid, three/four missions in I still have nothing on the board.

 

Take care and be safe.

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.

[Monksilver]

2 hours ago, Missionbug said:

 

Was that using the 303 all through the campaign though?

 

My hope is that as I go through the campaign there will be the chance to change armaments, so possibly my chances will then improve, right now all I can do is pepper any 109 I get near to and hope to do enough damage to at least make it disengage.

 

Twice I made a 109 blaze but was very close up, downside is one of my AI team mates rammed me in a attempt to get the same target so I had to re-fly, annoying really as I have pain in arms and neck that prevents me flying much, the result of the re-fly was never the same and the best I got was to see aircraft sculk away streaming fluid, three/four missions in I still have nothing on the board.

 

Take care and be safe.

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.

 

Yes, just the 303, as much of it as I could carry. I would add I only lasted 5 weeks. My deflection aim is a bit off as I got lots of hits on the tails of the BF109s but far too few around the engine.  

 

Same here, only get flamers when up close. I actually had a couple of flaming 110s in the same mission - easier of course to hit engines that aren't hiding in front of a fuselage as with the 109.

 

I recommend on landing don't finish but use control F2 to see if any enemy you hit are leaking oil from damaged engines and if they are just hit x8 speed and see if any crash whilst you are parked, you might get a couple that way.

 

As I was on Iron Man mode I had to learn to be careful of going looking for targets off the mission route. Did that once and no one followed me, initially not a problem as it was just 2 107Es laden with a bomb, nice little turn fight going on and then their 6 109F friends pitched up, that was quite tense and took a while to creep back to my side of the lines by mixing up running for home and turning into the closing pursuers to protect my 6 - not long after crossing into friendly territory I hit the silk as seemed the only sensible option when still surrounded by 7 fighters.

 

Happy flying.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Monksilver

[Noisemaker]

Alright, I had some time to try out the Hurricane in QM today and came to the conclusion that in the Moscow theatre, the Hurricane would be a downgrade from the P-40.  Out of interest to see how the Hurricane fairs with the Russian armament, I started a new Stalingrad career, and I have to say, with this loadout, it feels more like a lateral move.  You sacrifice speed and ammo loadout for manoeuverability and cannons.  4 missions in, and already double ace and lots of heavy ornaments hanging from the uniform.  The steadiness  of the platform makes deflection shots so easy!  And let's not mention landing, even when heavily damaged (Ju-87 rear gunners, still...).

Thanks for all the advice!  The choice is clear.  P-40 until Stalingrad, then we'll see.

[Bremspropeller]

Rock you like a Kittyhawk!

 

 

...sounds a bit off-colour, doesn't it?

[Gambit21]

2 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Rock you like a Kittyhawk!

 

 

...sounds a bit off-colour, doesn't it?

 

Meatballs 11 O’clock high!

(I will never give up)

[LukeFF]

10 hours ago, Missionbug said:

Was that using the 303 all through the campaign though?

 

My hope is that as I go through the campaign there will be the chance to change armaments, so possibly my chances will then improve, right now all I can do is pepper any 109 I get near to and hope to do enough damage to at least make it disengage.

 

The Soviet armament mod becomes available and the default loadout with Stalingrad. No Hispanos or Vickers S cannons, though.

[NO.20_Krispy_Duck]

These are my two main aircraft these days, both in multiplayer and single player. Of the two, the Hurricane is the better overall airplane in this game. The P-40 has a little better dive and speed, but suffers from rather squirrely handling. The Hurricane is slow, but it has very good handling, and the enemy will have a real problem if they try a turn fight. Stock P-40 guns are better, but modded, the Hurricane can have very potent guns. Both carry bombs and handle ground attack nicely. Both planes are fairly durable and can take some damage.  The Hurricane is a more forgiving plane to fly and is much more forgiving if end up with low speed due to a climb or turn. In other words, the P-40 offers better diving and perhaps somewhat better ground attack in stock format, but you're giving up a lot by way of flight characteristics.

 

And in the game, the P-40 does not have engine regulation, so you need to watch that if you're diving. The P-40's method of dogfighting is to get above someone and come down with lots of energy. Maybe you make a one-turn fight if you have an advantage at that point, and maybe you just keep going and get away. Either way, the P-40 in a dogfight leaves a very, very slim margin of error against a 109 or 190. You want to come down fast, hit hard, and get away. You'd think you'd be able to turn, but don't be fooled because if you get slow, the P-40 will become jumpy and unpredictable. It will try to corkscrew and become a real handful to control. Dive, hit, and get clear.

 

With the Hurricane, at least, you might be able to entice a turn fight out of a lower experience enemy. You can make short work of them if they do this, especially if you drop flaps 30% and turn. It's an option that you really don't have in the P-40 in IL2. Just make sure you're a good shot, because with .303s you need to get the most bang-for-the-buck. With the 20mms, you get a lot more bang but fewer rounds.

 

I don't mean to run long, but these early planes have been an exploration of mine. I will even fly them in late war multiplayer scenarios. You get shot down a lot by D9s and K4s, but you also learn a lot (and quickly) about what you can and cannot do in these early planes.

 

That is at least how I see it in IL2.

 

Historically, the P-40 was actually seen as an upgrade to the Hurricanes for several RAF squardons. I think the P-40 in IL2 underperforms, perhaps severely, in Il2 compared to its historical version, whereas the Hurricane is probably about right in performance. The Merlin Hurricane upgrade is nice to have. The 20mm Hispanos might be a little heavy-hitting for what they really were, but maybe that's just cannon in general in the game. The .303s seem a little wimpy to me because I'll just pour them into fighters and not do a whole lot. I'd love to see some P-40 upgrade options in the future, like Merlin engine versions, or the P-40M or the P-40N. I'd also like to see the weird and squirrely handling addressed, but we have what we have for now.

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by NO.20_Krispy_Duck

[Noisemaker]

I'm curious that we have Soviet armament upgrades for the Hurricane, but not the P40.  Did the Soviets never add ShVaks to the P40?

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

11 minutes ago, Noisemaker said:

I'm curious that we have Soviet armament upgrades for the Hurricane, but not the P40.  Did the Soviets never add ShVaks to the P40?

 

I have not encountered any historical modifications of this sort. Perhaps the Soviets were satisfied with the M2 Browning. Alternatively, the wing design of the P-40 may have made it too difficult to install ShVAK cannon.

[twilson37]

I have flown 8-10 missions so far with 6 kills in the Hurricane in BOM. The Hurricane is far more forgiving to fly than the P40 and the engine seems to run quite a while longer when damaged, it is easy to takeoff and land and turns better than most fighters, however the performance is far worse than the P40, it is slower and does not dive(or climb) like a P40. In BOM Career mode you only have .303 MGs and while the 12  guns can bring down an enemy aircraft but getting more than two can be difficult as you expend so many of your rounds on a single aircraft, and running home without ammo is tough considering the 109 and even the 110 can catch you leaving you twisting and turning to get back to your lines.

 

My advice, start a second career with the Hurricane, why sacrifice flying the P-40, the beauty of the game is you can fly both 

[oc2209]

On 11/19/2020 at 2:39 PM, NO.20_Krispy_Duck said:

 The .303s seem a little wimpy to me because I'll just pour them into fighters and not do a whole lot.

 

 

I just bought the Hurricane, and with a few tests I've determined it's pointless to fire at any fighter from behind with the .303s. Force them to turn, pull through them (which the Hurricane can do easily against any plane, maybe barring the Yak-9 only), and fire into their engine from above. You'll regularly set fires with a minimum of ammo expenditure. If the enemy won't enter a turn fight, hold your fire until you can hit them from above or below at high deflection. If you can't do any of that, simply don't fire at all.

 

Regardless of how closely this resembles reality, this is how it works in the game. For me, at least. I will definitely be paying closer attention to British accounts from the Battle of Britain, in terms of how they describe their kills with .303s. I've always known they were inadequate from using them (German equivalent) in early 109s.

 

The only way I can think of that .303s could start an engine fire (the only way to down a plane with them, that or kill the pilot) from behind, is if the convergence was set perfectly to your target's distance, and the bullets would be coming into the target at an angle that would effectively bypass the tail/fuselage and enter the engine area from an acute angle on either side of nose. A Spitfire's gun spread across its wings would make this more effective, I imagine.

 

Or, in the case of aiming at the 109 specifically, if you just hosed the area under the pilot's seat to light up the fuel there. Again, that would require good convergence range estimation so as to not waste bullets. For some reason I rarely manage to flame a 109 from that tank; it's always the engine with me.

[keeno]

Funnily enough the P40 and Hurricane are my fave planes, both work horses, both under-dogs, both rugged........... but the Hurricane turn performance and armament choices though! ? 

[oc2209]

Okay, just ran some tests in quick mode. Hurricane with boosted engine, 8 .303s, extra ammo. I faced off against an ace AI with a 109 E7. If I turned tight enough into him as he passed me (head on start positions at 300m altitude), he would try to jink rather than simply outrun me. If I was a little off with my turn, he would just keep up a climbing turn and effectively disengage.

 

Anyway. My best kill was sawing off his vertical stabilizer with approximately 400 rounds spent (not all into that one burst to saw off the stab.) My second best kills averaged about 700-1000 rounds to start an engine fire in a turn. My deflection aiming is highly variable, and wasn't anywhere near perfect tonight. My worst kills took about 2000 rounds.

 

An interesting anecdote from these tests: I found I was able to collide at slow speed (under 200 mph) with the 109's wing to rip it off completely, while my wing not only survived, but didn't even crack or show any damage. This happened on 3 different occasions. Is this a testament to the Hurricane's wing construction, or simply a flaw? Moving on.

 

I eventually set my convergence range to 100m (from a start at 200m, and one test at 300m). The rudder sawing occurred at the 100m convergence. Overall, I think my original 200m convergence coupled with firing while in a turn is the best strategy. Even with convergence set to 100m, firing at pointblank from directly behind (and sometimes with a little deflection) just wasn't that effective. I never once killed the pilot from behind. Only once did I light up his belly tank.

 

I'll start a career soon to test in field conditions.

 

My overall impression from this testing is that .303 are really quite decent... if you're Annie effing Oakley in the sky. There were a couple moments where time (not my framerate) seemed to slow down, and I watched a solid burst go into a vital area to promptly set it on fire. There was one moment where I nailed a perfect deflection under my nose (blind) and killed the pilot plus started his engine on fire. But those moments were rare.

 

I wonder how much worse the Germans would've lost the BoB if British fighters of the period were armed with, say, 4 .50s instead of 8 .303s.

[sniperton]

1 hour ago, oc2209 said:

I wonder how much worse the Germans would've lost the BoB if British fighters of the period were armed with, say, 4 .50s instead of 8 .303s.

I guess the problem here in-game is not so much with the .303cals as with the DM of 109s. I find the .303cals pretty effective against Stukas and Heinkels, but 109s seem to be almost invulnerable other than by shooting at them from a high deflection angle -- "if you're Annie effing Oakley in the sky".

 

[Monostripezebra]

In the end you want both..  to me the P40 and the Hurrican just belong together!

 

 

[Noisemaker]

7 minutes ago, Monostripezebra said:

In the end you want both..  to me the P40 and the Hurrican just belong together!

 

 

Of all the bugs I've seen in this game, this one takes the cake.

[Bremspropeller]

Look ,mom, a Hurrihawk!

[bzc3lk]

5 minutes ago, Noisemaker said:

Of all the bugs I've seen in this game, this one takes the cake.

 

Why is it a bug?  Have a look in the link below, quite  possible.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1940_Brocklesby_mid-air_collision

Edited November 21, 2020 by bzc3lk

[oc2209]

9 hours ago, sniperton said:

I guess the problem here in-game is not so much with the .303cals as with the DM of 109s. I find the .303cals pretty effective against Stukas and Heinkels, but 109s seem to be almost invulnerable other than by shooting at them from a high deflection angle -- "if you're Annie effing Oakley in the sky".

 

 

I just ran some more tests against LaGG-3s and Yak-1s. They light up more easily than the 109, especially from the wings (which I think would be historically accurate), but it still generally takes a lot of bullets to accomplish this. My conclusion is that .303 lethality is highly variable even against the softest targets.

 

In one instance, I put my convergence back down to 100m again, and emptied ~3200 rounds into a Yak-1 from less than 150m on average. It was trailing fuel from every tank it had, still didn't light up, still no engine strikes. Only at the very end, when I had like 130 bullets left, did I finally manage to kill the pilot from a shallow deflection from above.

 

With my convergence set to 200m, I lit up a Stuka from a slight deflection from the lower left rear quadrant. My range was approximately 250m away. It still took 1000 rounds.

 

I'm not saying the 109's DM is flawless; but at the same time, the .303 just isn't reliable without long, accurate bursts into very precise areas. On average, it takes me 700-1000 rounds (on a good day) to make any kill, on any target. Which I think sounds pretty reasonable based on the round's historical efficacy. Maybe if I practiced for hours and hours, I might get my average down to 500. But that's unlikely.

[sniperton]

2 hours ago, oc2209 said:

the .303 just isn't reliable without long, accurate bursts into very precise areas

I don't dispute that. My point is that two-engine aircraft are more vulnerable to such attacks than one-engine aircraft, and the Stuka with its wing tanks is more vulnerable than the 109.

Edited November 21, 2020 by sniperton

[Noisemaker]

10 hours ago, bzc3lk said:

 

Why is it a bug?  Have a look in the link below, quite  possible.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1940_Brocklesby_mid-air_collision

You're saying this isn't a bug?

[oc2209]

2 hours ago, Noisemaker said:

You're saying this isn't a bug?

[clip]

 

Well... sometimes, when two planes love each other very, very much, they, on occasion, need to be... physically closer... than they would be with other planes. It's important to remember that this is normal plane behavior. It's how little planes are made, after all.

[Monostripezebra]

2 hours ago, Noisemaker said:

You're saying this isn't a bug?

 

 

Yes, this is not a bug. Let me explain:

 

Collision modeling in games is never like the real thing and there are several approaches to it. IL2 has some of the best, if not THE BEST in flightsim corner. It models the initial impact very detailed and with different plane parts beeing of different hardness  that is kind of the design focus and what matters in "regular" (ie: accidental) mid air collisions.

 

But on sustained contact of objects, impulse transition from one object to another can get wonky really weird, one way to prevent that is dampen things by allowing some "translucency" of objects, ie: they sink into each other rather then giving every little skin shock to each other. You ´ll find a similar thing in DCS or as of lately even in War Thunder, which also updated to such a concept.

 

It becomes clearer what I did to actually fake a Hurricane getting towed in by an allied helper if you watch it from the cockpit, I just hocked up to a landing P40:

 

In short, the game was not designed to have planes fly together in that kind of close formation, but you still can. Infact, you allready could in RoF back then.

Edited November 22, 2020 by Monostripezebra

[ATAG_Headshot]

On 11/22/2020 at 2:38 AM, oc2209 said:

 

Well... sometimes, when two planes love each other very, very much, they, on occasion, need to be... physically closer... than they would be with other planes. It's important to remember that this is normal plane behavior. It's how little planes are made, after all.

When the P-38 and the P-51 do this you get the F-82...

[WM_KMS]

On 11/18/2020 at 2:39 PM, No105_Swoose said:

Salute! @Noisemaker you may want to consider trying a Hurricane career using the excellent Pat Wilson's Campaign Generator (PWCG) 3rd party add-on.  Maybe not as historically accurate as the stock career mode, but PWCG gives you all the Hurricane armament and engine options in a Battle of Moscow campaign from the get-go.  I'm currently flying a PWCG Hurricane career with the 651st Fighter Aviation Regiment on the Stalingrad map.  Very challenging but enjoyable.

Me too, are you having problems with friendly AI planes unable to take off also? When I have more than 1 wingman they do circles on the runway and bump into each other then despawn

[No105_Swoose]

4 hours ago, WM_KMS said:

Me too, are you having problems with friendly AI planes unable to take off also? When I have more than 1 wingman they do circles on the runway and bump into each other then despawn

Yes, unfortunately, at both Iliarnovsky and Davydovsky airfields all the Hurricanes seemed to crash into each other after the tower would call "Rook, cleared to taxi".  My first work around was doing an air start, but I preferred the second: changing the start option in PWCG configuration to start with engine startup.  Then the planes would be all correctly positioned and, after engine start, would taxi one by one to the runway for takeoff.  Took a little longer to get airborne, but the immersion was nice and it avoided the crashing problem.