Developer Diary 265 - Discussion

[Avimimus]

37 minutes ago, Livai said:

Is the Bf-109 G-6 "Late" coming with two features combined (DB 605ASM) or just with "DB 605AM" same as the G-14? When two features combined (DB 605ASM) engine were introduced into the Bf 109 G-6 and Bf 109 G-14 and this engine is not included in the game how  realistic is this game then?

 

Well... this sim is missing some historically important aircraft entirely (e.g. AI aircraft for 1941)... and also a lot of transportation used horses... if you want to go down that route... we could talk about a lot of things other than your engine variant.

[BlitzPig_EL]

21 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

 

Well... this sim is missing some historically important aircraft entirely (e.g. AI aircraft for 1941)... and also a lot of transportation used horses... if you want to go down that route... we could talk about a lot of things other than your engine variant.

 

Indeed.  Hs 123, I 153, Curtiss Hawk 81, Bristol Beaufighter, Bristol Beaufort, Northrup P61 Black Widow, SB 2, Macchi 200, Gloster Gladiator, Lockheed Hudson, PV2 Ventura,  the list is endless...

Edited November 14, 2020 by BlitzPig_EL

[LuftManu]

The sim is missing every aircraft it doesn't have, right? ?

[cardboard_killer]

27 minutes ago, LF_Gallahad said:

The sim is missing every aircraft it doesn't have, right? ?

 

Yes, and the vast majority are not Bf-109s.

[Eisenfaustus]

2 hours ago, CanadaOne said:

 

Maybe, then again they could have just thrown in one of the existing adequate-to-the-task 109s and used the mental space on a plane that does not have 8 pre-existing iterations in the game already. I guess in a year or two or three it will be up to a dozen 109s and it will continue that a thirteenth absolutely must! be made, even if other planes are left to wait.

 

On the plus side, all the BoX planes are very nicely made. No argument about that.

 

 

I understand your sentiment - but it doesn’t counter in any way the notion that a player who is new to box and wants to start with BoN should get a 109 and a 190 for the axis side. Wouldn’t be a viable standalone module without them. Any standalone WWII module including the LW should have one 109 variant - the need to buy another module to get one sides premier single engine dayfighter would be bad business practice I think. 

 

As an already loyal customer I‘m with you. Neither the G6 late nor the A6 thrill me - but in place of the devs I‘d propably have made the same decision. 

[sonicapollo]

This aircraft was needed for this package, get over it. I would rather they give the 1/10th effort and have the plane than not.  The effort saved on “light workload” aircraft is obviously made up for in aircraft that are complex and brand new.  Every installment has had some amount of this.  Even BOS had the F4 and G2 that are at least half similar. Yes, with the G6 and G14 we already have, the G6 late is pretty much 99% already made. I think if anything this makes the g6 collector plane almost useless. 
 

I do agree that the AS modification should be included. They add little additions all the time (reworked systems, female pilots, etc.) I wouldn’t fret. If people are nice, maybe someday it will just show up. 

Edited November 14, 2020 by sonicapollo

[Avimimus]

2 hours ago, LF_Gallahad said:

The sim is missing every aircraft it doesn't have, right? ?

 

Yes... although some are historically or numerically important in the theatres modelled... For instance, the I-153 was an important ground attack air-plane in at least three theatres released... the Fw-189 was used for a lot of reconnaissance work... the IAR-80/81 was at both Stalingrad and over the Kerch straights in Kuban... the Pe-3 was used in Stalingrad and especially in Moscow... the Ju-87B/R was widely used in some of our theatres... there are missing A-20 variants...

 

I'm not complaining (although I do wish they'd figure out a way to do something like anniversary editions with more AI aircraft)

Edited November 14, 2020 by Avimimus

[=CFC=Conky]

Oh, look, another kite with an indestructible tail...yay?

Edited November 14, 2020 by =CFC=Conky

[PatrickAWlson]

22 hours ago, CountZero said:

If you dont have atleast 10 109s in game you cant be considered serious ww2 air game   so still work to be done to get one more, G10 maybe 

 

Nah ... E4 for BoB  

[41Sqn_Skipper]

Thank you devs! Please ignore the loud minority of whiners. The good news is that BON development is progressing! The updates lately have greatly improved the sim and even faster than I'd have imagined. 

[PatrickAWlson]

21 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

In some ways it is more a question of how long one can sustain the turn (sustained turn rate rather than instantaneous).

 

My understanding is that low wing loading generally makes it easier to generate a lot of lift in a turn. However, one can also generate lift in a turn by having a higher angle-of-attack (basically pulling back on the stick harder so the air hits the wing at a steeper angle). The downside of this approach is that it produces even more drag... so it requires a greater power-to-weight ratio.

 

There are also limits to increasing angle-of-attack as a high angle of attack will lead to the wing stalling... but theoretically a big plane with lots of momentum and with lots of engine power should be able to maintain a high angle of attack longer.

 

 

My non technical phrasing is that your turns start to look more like yo-yos than turns.  I do this a lot with the 190 As and I find it works well.  Keep my nose higher in the turn to stay above my target, then apply some rudder and drop my nose to cut a chord across the circle.  Get lead and if a solution presents itself, fire. 

 

The weight and power help to regain energy during the diving phase.  If you feel that the tactic is not working for you then just keep going straight as the other guy continues his turn.  By the time he comes around again you should be well out of range.

[=621=Samikatz]

16 minutes ago, =CFC=Conky said:

Oh, look, another kite with an indestructible tail...yay?

 

Weeeeeelllllll, the D-22 dropping came with a rework of the D-28's FM and DM. Maybe a new 109 has given them excuse to go back and adjust the rest of the series, too? Optimism!

[PatrickAWlson]

4 hours ago, CanadaOne said:

 

Maybe, then again they could have just thrown in one of the existing adequate-to-the-task 109s and used the mental space on a plane that does not have 8 pre-existing iterations in the game already. I guess in a year or two or three it will be up to a dozen 109s and it will continue that a thirteenth absolutely must! be made, even if other planes are left to wait.

 

On the plus side, all the BoX planes are very nicely made. No argument about that.

 

 

 

The late model G6 is THE 109 that was flying in early to mid 1944.  The eight existing iterations are not the ones that flew in this time period.  Normandy is squarely set in this time period.  You might not like it but you can't argue that it makes sense.

 

We'll see what three years brings.  I'm not expecting a completed Normandy until late 2021 or early 2022, so we have plenty of time to speculate  .  For myself, I expect that in 2023, those younger than me will be asking why I am still writing code in Java  

 

For completely unique types we are getting the Arado,  Me410, and Mosquito.  The Typhoon, Spitfire XIV, P51B and P47 D-22 are welcome additions.  I personally think the late G6 is necessary for reasons above. I'm a big FW fan so I'm good with the A6, but I concede that it may not be all that exciting for many.  Honestly, neither is the Ju88C, although it might have some interesting anti shipping and anti train campaigns associated with it.

 

Still, mostly happy with the planes and completely over the moon about the map.  Money well spent.

[ADorante]

I imagine people from this and other sim-related forums traveling back in time not to do the obvious but trying to convince German aircraft designers to build other types but 109s.

[oc2209]

34 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

For completely unique types we are getting the Arado,  Me410, and Mosquito.  The Typhoon, Spitfire XIV, P51B and P47 D-22 are welcome additions.  I personally think the late G6 is necessary for reasons above. I'm a big FW fan so I'm good with the A6, but I concede that it may not be all that exciting for many.  Honestly, neither is the Ju88C, although it might have some interesting anti shipping and anti train campaigns associated with it.

 

Still, mostly happy with the planes and completely over the moon about the map.  Money well spent.

 

Agreed on the rationale of including the G6 Late. That said, as an owner of all the 109s, I admit it doesn't excite me.

 

I will buy the Spitfire for sure, because I only own the IX. Same for the Arado, even though I really don't like the bombing role. Or jets... but I'll still buy it just for novelty's sake. The 410 is interesting for its design quirks, like the remote gun barbettes (which will probably be much more effective in the hands of AI gunners than it was in real life), and the canopy layout and position; but I imagine its handling is inferior to the 110.

 

None of the other planes are of special interest to me. But, the map is a huge incentive in itself. So I'll definitely buy the collector planes as soon as they come out, and probably the rest later.

[PatrickAWlson]

5 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

...

 

None of the other planes are of special interest to me. But, the map is a huge incentive in itself. So I'll definitely buy the collector planes as soon as they come out, and probably the rest later.

 

The map is, for me, the biggest draw.  That combined with the late 43/early 44 western allied plane set.  I am going to try to push the channel front back to 1941 if possible - 1942 otherwise.  Spits, Hurricanes, older 109s and 190s will allow for that.  Americans appear on the scene in 1943.  Run a low intensity campaign with missions much less frequent than the eastern front.  More of an emphasis on raids and intercepts than front line patrols.  No ground battles happening other than Dieppe so very little of that.  

 

 

[oc2209]

28 minutes ago, ADorante said:

I imagine people from this and other sim-related forums traveling back in time not to do the obvious but trying to convince German aircraft designers to build other types but 109s.

 

I think the greater problem for the Luftwaffe was the constant fuel shortage (even before the Allies bombed the refineries) and the horrific German pilot training program that was worthless by '43; at the precise moment when the Luftwaffe needed thousands of perfectly-trained pilots, they got cannon fodder. Which really means the training schools were already failing by '42, at least in terms of quantity output.

 

The Germans could've had a great plane replace the 109 by mid-war (not the 262), and it still wouldn't have given the Luftwaffe the elan it had at the start of the war. Replacement pilots lacking 500 hours of quality training and confidence in their abilities, will be largely useless in any plane you put them in.

13 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

The map is, for me, the biggest draw.  That combined with the late 43/early 44 western allied plane set.  I am going to try to push the channel front back to 1941 if possible - 1942 otherwise.  Spits, Hurricanes, older 109s and 190s will allow for that.  Americans appear on the scene in 1943.  Run a low intensity campaign with missions much less frequent than the eastern front.  More of an emphasis on raids and intercepts than front line patrols.  No ground battles happening other than Dieppe so very little of that. 

 

Oh yeah, I can see how it'd be a goldmine for your custom campaigns.

 

You can implement rhubarbs, ramrods, and the like. I never thought of the possibilities until now.  It'll also make sense to have B-25s (or any other 2 engine bomber) in that early time period, instead of heavy bombers that should be common by '43.

Edited November 14, 2020 by oc2209

[Vastarien]

I understand that the team is hard at work in difficult conditions but I hoped they took the chance to improve the cockpit textures of the later 109s. Compared to other newer planes like p51, tempest, p38, 109 cockpits are showing their age.

[bzc3lk]

14 minutes ago, Vastarien said:

I understand that the team is hard at work in difficult conditions but I hoped they took the chance to improve the cockpit textures of the later 109s. Compared to other newer planes like p51, tempest, p38, 109 cockpits are showing their age.

 

Have you tried these mods?

 

 

[Vastarien]

2 minutes ago, bzc3lk said:

 

Have you tried these mods?

 

 

I did and I can’t play without Oyster’s mod. But there is still a long way to improve those old cockpits to the new standard.

[cardboard_killer]

Personally, I don't mod anything. That way leads to 1946 insane complexity.

[[CPT]milopugdog]

On 11/14/2020 at 8:15 AM, BlitzPig_EL said:

 

Indeed.  Hs 123, I 153, Curtiss Hawk 81, Bristol Beaufighter, Bristol Beaufort, Northrup P61 Black Widow, SB 2, Macchi 200, Gloster Gladiator, Lockheed Hudson, PV2 Ventura,  the list is endless...

1C at some point they actually made a mini-documentary about the I-153; which I'm assuming they were planning to implement at some point. They did the same thing for the I-16, which wasn't included with BoS, but got added in BoM.

 

Devs, I-153 please? ?

 

Edited November 15, 2020 by [CPT]milopugdog
grammar

[Vastarien]

9 minutes ago, cardboard_killer said:

Personally, I don't mod anything. That way leads to 1946 insane complexity.

I wish I didn't have to do it.

Still, thankful to the developers for all the updates.

[dburne]

Yes absolutely incredible work you guys are doing under extremely difficult circumstances !!

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

14 hours ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

 

I think that the new engine cowling of the AS would be significant in terms of development work. The required meshes and textures are fairly large and intricate.

 

I can therefore understand the decision to avoid expanding the scope of the project. However, it would certainly be nice to see an AS eventually.

You have other mods that significantly change the 3D model of the plane though, like the turret for the Pe-2, the gunpods for the Hs 129, Ju 87, Bf 110G, IL-2 1942 and 1943, the gunner for the IL-2 1942, the bomb racks for the He 111 when equipping external bombs that replace the internal bomb bay doors,  the different gun configuration for the Hurricane.

I'm confindent they can find a way to implement this in a similar way they did with the cases described above. And the last resort would be to break up the plane so they appear as two different options in the menu. The development of the Bf 109 K-4 already helps in this regard, if i'm correct the DB 605D engine shares the same supercharger as the DB 605/AS (taken from the DB 603, which will prove helpful for future Me 410 development as well), and the cowling while not identical it is very similar.

[CanadaOne]

3 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

The late model G6 is THE 109 that was flying in early to mid 1944.  The eight existing iterations are not the ones that flew in this time period.  Normandy is squarely set in this time period.  You might not like it but you can't argue that it makes sense.

 

We'll see what three years brings.  I'm not expecting a completed Normandy until late 2021 or early 2022, so we have plenty of time to speculate  .  For myself, I expect that in 2023, those younger than me will be asking why I am still writing code in Java  

 

For completely unique types we are getting the Arado,  Me410, and Mosquito.  The Typhoon, Spitfire XIV, P51B and P47 D-22 are welcome additions.  I personally think the late G6 is necessary for reasons above. I'm a big FW fan so I'm good with the A6, but I concede that it may not be all that exciting for many.  Honestly, neither is the Ju88C, although it might have some interesting anti shipping and anti train campaigns associated with it.

 

Still, mostly happy with the planes and completely over the moon about the map.  Money well spent.

 

Of the five people here I would not presume to disagree with, you are two of them. 

[PatrickAWlson]

1 hour ago, cardboard_killer said:

Personally, I don't mod anything. That way leads to 1946 insane complexity.

 

One nice thing about Great Battles is that to make a second install all you have to do is copy everything to a new directory.  I have my modded version but if I ever try MP I will just make a copy without mods to get access to servers.  

 

Confession: I am a big time user of mods.  My Skyrim install had over 150 mods installed.  Most KCD mods are not good but there are a couple that I grabbed for that game too.  IL2 I just pulled the 4K cockpit mods and I use the icon mods to reduce icons to a single red or blue dot.

Edited November 14, 2020 by PatrickAWlson

[E69_geramos109]

The new G6 LATE is kind of a joke. I did not expect from the team to sell a the same plane twice. There is no difference from the G14 without the AS or ASM engine mod so we basically get the G14 once again with the posibility to put the old cockpit or the old tail....

What about the 3D modelling big mistakes that the 109 has on the game like the landing gear or the frontal armored glass bar? Anything improved or just Copy-Paste?

[SYN_Luftwaffles]

Still waiting on the IAR 80/81 lol

But really, though, I'd love to see the IL4. Of course, then the mission makers would just limit the weapon loadout to just 1 useable engine and a handgun or something like they do now.... ::looking at you He-111 2500kg bomb::

[Mollotin]

awesome to see 109 G6 late, been waiting for it a while. Nicely fills a gap between G6 early and G14!

 

 

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

1 hour ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

You have other mods that significantly change the 3D model of the plane though, like the turret for the Pe-2, the gunpods for the Hs 129, Ju 87, Bf 110G, IL-2 1942 and 1943, the gunner for the IL-2 1942, the bomb racks for the He 111 when equipping external bombs that replace the internal bomb bay doors,  the different gun configuration for the Hurricane.

 

Of course. All I'm saying is that the AS requires more than just a change of engine dynamics, contrary to what some have implied. Unlike the Merlin 70, you'd need to tear off and replace substantial chunks of the 3D model.

[FTC_ChilliBalls]

3 minutes ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

 

Of course. All I'm saying is that the AS requires more than just a change of engine dynamics, contrary to what some have implied. Unlike the Merlin 70, you'd need to tear off and replace substantial chunks of the 3D model.

AFAIK the cowling changes from the K4 would be pretty small, though it would need the extended tailwheel and the G14s wings also.

[LukeFF]

17 hours ago, Q_Walker said:

Will the late variant be replacing the current early G6 variant in the Bodenplatte career?

 

The early model will still likely be there, since there were still a handful of planes with the old-style canopy and tail unit kicking around in 1944:

 

http://www.historicalwings.com/?page_id=7843
 

Spoiler

 

 

[=RS=Stix_09]

On 11/14/2020 at 10:25 AM, sevenless said:

 

It basically comes down to MW 50. Without it, it is still a G6. A G6 with MW 50 is basically a G14. In detail it is a bit more complicated because a lot of G6 were retrofitted with everything necessary to be a full G14. See here for a rough description by Prien/Rodeicke:

 

Spoiler

 

 

and by Wotowski:

 

 

 

 

 

My understanding was the g14 was mainly an attempt to standardize production, and  at the time was able to be produced in larger numbers , not a lot different to some variants of the g6. (as mentioned in you lower picture)

 

It was not as good as the G-10 or K-4, but it was ready in June 1944, and so was produced in large numbers.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2020 by =RS=Stix_09

[LukeFF]

4 minutes ago, =RS=Stix_09 said:

My understanding was the g14 was an mainly attempt to standardize production,

 

It was an attempt, yes, but in the end the G-14 ended up being a mishmash of various parts, like the G-6. While most had the tall tail, you'll find G-14s with the short tail, for instance, and some apparently also had the old, heavily-framed canopy.

[=RS=Stix_09]

4 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

It was an attempt, yes, but in the end the G-14 ended up being a mishmash of various parts, like the G-6. While most had the tall tail, you'll find G-14s with the short tail, for instance, and some apparently also had the old, heavily-framed canopy.

 

Ya,My main point is its just a versions of the G6 in reality. Unlike the K4 or G10

Edited November 15, 2020 by =RS=Stix_09

[LukeFF]

Just now, =RS=Stix_09 said:

Ya,My main point is its just a version of the G6 in reality.

 

Precisely  

[newbravado]

Thanks for this next 109. Look forward to it.

[sevenless]

7 hours ago, =RS=Stix_09 said:

 

Ya,My main point is its just a versions of the G6 in reality. Unlike the K4 or G10

 

I concur on that. You also could call the G14 a late (late) G6. However, I´m glad that we now have (next week) almost all G6 (Beule) variants from intro 1943 until end of production in the game.

[JLean]

Great news!  Again something new to wait ?... and now it seems that waiting time will not be too long.

Some ideas for "skinners" .

S!