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Armor plating


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у меня такая же проблема - слабое воздействие кпк сша.

вот что выяснил. в игре на данный момент не реализована номенклатура боеприпасов для этого пулемёта. нет трассеров. бронебойных. зажигательных. бронебойно-зажигательных пуль. поэтому на р-47, р-51, р-40 летать очень тяжело. надо запиливать оппнентов. сейчас в боекомплекте только обычная болванка м2.

 

I have the same problem-the weak impact of the us CPC.

here's what I found out. the game currently does not implement the range of ammunition for this machine gun. there is no tracers. armor-piercing. incendiary. armor-piercing incendiary bullets. therefore, the p-47, p-51, p-40 is very difficult to fly. it is necessary to file the oppnents. now in the ammunition only the usual blank m2.

 

с УБ так же обстоит дело. не реализованы патроны. особенно разрывной МДЗ. а он был в боекомплекте.

 

it is the same with UB. cartridges are not implemented. especially the discontinuous MDZ. and he was in ammunition.

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/13946-что-с-моделированием-крупнокалиберных-пулемётов-сша-и-ссср/?tab=comments#comment-803786

кпк_1.png

the picture shows 12.7 * 99 cartridges of the WWII period

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Roland_HUNter
3 hours ago, Gimpel said:

у меня такая же проблема - слабое воздействие кпк сша.

вот что выяснил. в игре на данный момент не реализована номенклатура боеприпасов для этого пулемёта. нет трассеров. бронебойных. зажигательных. бронебойно-зажигательных пуль. поэтому на р-47, р-51, р-40 летать очень тяжело. надо запиливать оппнентов. сейчас в боекомплекте только обычная болванка м2.

 

I have the same problem-the weak impact of the us CPC.

here's what I found out. the game currently does not implement the range of ammunition for this machine gun. there is no tracers. armor-piercing. incendiary. armor-piercing incendiary bullets. therefore, the p-47, p-51, p-40 is very difficult to fly. it is necessary to file the oppnents. now in the ammunition only the usual blank m2.

 

с УБ так же обстоит дело. не реализованы патроны. особенно разрывной МДЗ. а он был в боекомплекте.

 

it is the same with UB. cartridges are not implemented. especially the discontinuous MDZ. and he was in ammunition.

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/13946-что-с-моделированием-крупнокалиберных-пулемётов-сша-и-ссср/?tab=comments#comment-803786

кпк_1.png

the picture shows 12.7 * 99 cartridges of the WWII period

And the game not implemented the 26 mm of armor behind the Bf-109 G-K 4 fuel tank, what couldn't be penetrated by 20mm shells neither.
They will implement the ammunitions, they know what was in real, but its not an easy task to modell it.
Please understand them. :)

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7 часов назад, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter сказал:

And the game not implemented the 26 mm of armor behind the Bf-109 G-K 4 fuel tank, what couldn't be penetrated by 20mm shells neither.
They will implement the ammunitions, they know what was in real, but its not an easy task to modell it.
Please understand them. :)

бронебойный снаряд швак пр угле встречи 90 градусов пробивал 28 мм брони. испано ещё мощнее.

 

ShVAK's armor-piercing projectile penetrated 28 mm of armor at a 90-degree angle. Hispano is even more powerful.

 

тема не про к4. а про существующую реализацию на данный момент крупнокалиберных пулемётов. сейчас они слабо дамажат

 

the topic is not about K4. but about the existing implementation of large-caliber machine guns at the moment. now they are poorly damaged

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Roland_HUNter
11 hours ago, Gimpel said:

бронебойный снаряд швак пр угле встречи 90 градусов пробивал 28 мм брони. испано ещё мощнее.

 

ShVAK's armor-piercing projectile penetrated 28 mm of armor at a 90-degree angle. Hispano is even more powerful.

 

тема не про к4. а про существующую реализацию на данный момент крупнокалиберных пулемётов. сейчас они слабо дамажат

 

the topic is not about K4. but about the existing implementation of large-caliber machine guns at the moment. now they are poorly damaged

Check your sources:
http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=96:hispano-20mm-armour-piercing-ammunition&catid=44:gunsrockets&Itemid=60

Hispano could pen 23-27 mm of armor at 200 yard against 90 degree angle, and from 6 o clock that armor plate in the 109 was never flat.

"The armour penetration of the 20 mm ShVAK, same as the 12.7 mm DShK machinegun, is ineffective. Not a single penetration was obtained when firing against 20 mm homogeneous or 20 mm cemented armour placed at 30 degrees from a range of 135 meters, and when firing at 15 mm cemented armour at 30 degrees, penetration was only achieved from a range of 100 meters (firing NB-200 ammunition with increased muzzle velocity.""
http://www.tankarchives.ca/2019/05/autocannon-penetration.html

So the Shvak could penetrate around 27mm of armor on point blank range against 90 degree.

And I mentioned this armorplate in 109 G-K.(From G-1 to K-4)

When the dmg modell made, even soldiers who shot with 50 cal said, its realistic now, because its just a bigger rifle round with armor penetration capabilities.
Even cars can survive 50 cal:

 

 

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21 hours ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

And the game not implemented the 26 mm of armor behind the Bf-109 G-K 4 fuel tank, what couldn't be penetrated by 20mm shells neither.
They will implement the ammunitions, they know what was in real, but its not an easy task to modell it.
Please understand them. :)

Can you present us inner drawings and info about that plate? Because all the time i saw something with armor plating of fuel tank in 109s, no matter version, it was always 20-30mm of layered aluminium, not steel and 20-30mm of aluminium cant stop anything. Only true armor 109 had iam aware of is its armored seat. That plate you described, would have had around 360kilos, which is massive ammount of weight compared to extremely light +-3 ton 109.

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What does an internal bulkhead have to do with aerodynamic damage?

 

Because I stated in the OP that the, system damage, pilot kill chance etc. seemed ok?

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12 часов назад, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter сказал:

Check your sources:
http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=96:hispano-20mm-armour-piercing-ammunition&catid=44:gunsrockets&Itemid=60

Hispano could pen 23-27 mm of armor at 200 yard against 90 degree angle, and from 6 o clock that armor plate in the 109 was never flat.

"The armour penetration of the 20 mm ShVAK, same as the 12.7 mm DShK machinegun, is ineffective. Not a single penetration was obtained when firing against 20 mm homogeneous or 20 mm cemented armour placed at 30 degrees from a range of 135 meters, and when firing at 15 mm cemented armour at 30 degrees, penetration was only achieved from a range of 100 meters (firing NB-200 ammunition with increased muzzle velocity.""
http://www.tankarchives.ca/2019/05/autocannon-penetration.html

So the Shvak could penetrate around 27mm of armor on point blank range against 90 degree.

And I mentioned this armorplate in 109 G-K.(From G-1 to K-4)

When the dmg modell made, even soldiers who shot with 50 cal said, its realistic now, because its just a bigger rifle round with armor penetration capabilities.
Even cars can survive 50 cal:

 

 

пожалуйста

http://www.battlefield.ru/20mm-tnsh.html

на основной дальности стрельбы советских ввс пробитие лежит от 28 до 35 мм.

 

тема про пулемёты. тебе не нравится реализация ме-109к4? создавай её. не надо в теме про оружие истребителей сша писать про к4. пожалуйста

 

the topic is about guns. do you not like the implementation of me-109k4? create it. it is not necessary in the topic about the gun fighters of the United States to write about the K4. please

 

A.P. Mk III Performance  Penetration at 200 yards (0 degrees) 67 мм.

 

 УБ 12.7\UB Б-32 15 мм/500 м

УБ 12.7\UB БС-41 20 мм/750 м/20 degree

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SAS_Storebror
12 hours ago, =DMD=Honza said:

Can you present us inner drawings and info about that plate? Because all the time i saw something with armor plating of fuel tank in 109s, no matter version, it was always 20-30mm of layered aluminium, not steel and 20-30mm of aluminium cant stop anything. Only true armor 109 had iam aware of is its armored seat. That plate you described, would have had around 360kilos, which is massive ammount of weight compared to extremely light +-3 ton 109.

It's a duraluminium plate, comparable to soft steel in terms of holding back bullets.

Effective against .303 and .50 ammo, but not against 20mm.

 

:drinks:

Mike

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2 hours ago, SAS_Storebror said:

It's a duraluminium plate, comparable to soft steel in terms of holding back bullets.

Effective against .303 and .50 ammo, but not against 20mm.

 

:drinks:

Mike

Sorry but dural is totally ineffective even against .50 if its not heavily angled. Next thing is that magnesium in dural is "boosting" power of API ammo as its flamable and other parts of 109s/190s were made of pressed magnesium or dural. 303 and shrapnels? Yes, .50 below 200meters? good luck without something like 45-60°angle. As .50 AP ammo can go through over 20mm at around 50-100 meters. Against hardened tank quality steel, nothing like in planes and dural is far less capable than basic steel, not even hardened.

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8 hours ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

What does an internal bulkhead have to do with aerodynamic damage?

 

Because I stated in the OP that the, system damage, pilot kill chance etc. seemed ok?

 

Indeed - the thread is about the specific issue of how much aerodynamic damage is caused by .50 cal hits. Aerodynamic damage from other types of hits is  I think useful as a reference point.

 

But if people want to talk about the effectiveness or otherwise of aluminium plates as armour, interesting as that topic is, or other similar .50 cal related issues, they should start a different thread. 

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Roland_HUNter
3 hours ago, Gimpel said:

пожалуйста

http://www.battlefield.ru/20mm-tnsh.html

на основной дальности стрельбы советских ввс пробитие лежит от 28 до 35 мм.

 

тема про пулемёты. тебе не нравится реализация ме-109к4? создавай её. не надо в теме про оружие истребителей сша писать про к4. пожалуйста

 

the topic is about guns. do you not like the implementation of me-109k4? create it. it is not necessary in the topic about the gun fighters of the United States to write about the K4. please

 

A.P. Mk III Performance  Penetration at 200 yards (0 degrees) 67 мм.

 

 УБ 12.7\UB Б-32 15 мм/500 м

УБ 12.7\UB БС-41 20 мм/750 м/20 degree

😂 Before your commented I've already know you gonamake those mistakes:
MK III had the same penetration as the others, but wiht: "The design consisted of a duralumin envelope with a tungsten carbide core weighting 57.5 grams, the total weight of the projectile was around 96 grams." ammunition it could penetrate 67 mm. It was rare. As the MkIII and as the ammunition.
And in the IL-2 spit IX using MKII and Tempest using MKV:MK V has much shorter barrel as the MKIII and the MKV had only 2 kind of ammunition:
Semi-Armour Piercing, Incendiary (SAPI) and High Explosive, Incendiary (HEI) SAPI, I guess could penetrate max 17-20 mm of armor.

The russian Shvak and link you copied says:
It could penetrate 35 mm of armor WITH tungsten shells.
https://en.topwar.ru/146768-oruzhie-sovetskih-asov-aviacionnaja-pushka-shvak.html

"At the same time, the ShVAK motor cannon, with some changes in the design of 1941-42, was mounted on light T-30 tanks (modification of T-40) instead of 12,7-mm DShK machine gun, which allowed a significant increase in the power of their fire impact on the enemy and gave the tank crews the ability to hit enemy armored vehicles (armor penetration - up to 35 mm with a sabot projectile)"
Sabot(tungsten) round was 1.expenive 2.rare 3.never used in aircrafts.

15 hours ago, =DMD=Honza said:

Can you present us inner drawings and info about that plate? Because all the time i saw something with armor plating of fuel tank in 109s, no matter version, it was always 20-30mm of layered aluminium, not steel and 20-30mm of aluminium cant stop anything. Only true armor 109 had iam aware of is its armored seat. That plate you described, would have had around 360kilos, which is massive ammount of weight compared to extremely light +-3 ton 109.

Please sir, stop guessing in debates:
163217891_eea8b770dd_o.jpg

It was in the F-4, it was the early design of the fuel tank protection, it was only 22.5 mm, later on G models as I said its increased to 27 mm.
Why?
As the reports said, if the germans slightly increase the bulkhead thickness, then the 20mm ll be inneffective.
You can see the germans noticed this.

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19 минут назад, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter сказал:

😂 Before your commented I've already know you gonamake those mistakes:
MK III had the same penetration as the others, but wiht: "The design consisted of a duralumin envelope with a tungsten carbide core weighting 57.5 grams, the total weight of the projectile was around 96 grams." ammunition it could penetrate 67 mm. It was rare. As the MkIII and as the ammunition.
And in the IL-2 spit IX using MKII and Tempest using MKV:MK V has much shorter barrel as the MKIII and the MKV had only 2 kind of ammunition:
Semi-Armour Piercing, Incendiary (SAPI) and High Explosive, Incendiary (HEI) SAPI, I guess could penetrate max 17-20 mm of armor.

The russian Shvak and link you copied says:
It could penetrate 35 mm of armor WITH tungsten shells.
https://en.topwar.ru/146768-oruzhie-sovetskih-asov-aviacionnaja-pushka-shvak.html

"At the same time, the ShVAK motor cannon, with some changes in the design of 1941-42, was mounted on light T-30 tanks (modification of T-40) instead of 12,7-mm DShK machine gun, which allowed a significant increase in the power of their fire impact on the enemy and gave the tank crews the ability to hit enemy armored vehicles (armor penetration - up to 35 mm with a sabot projectile)"
Sabot(tungsten) round was 1.expenive 2.rare 3.never used in aircrafts.

я ещё раз повторяю. тема про американские пулемёты. если ты что-то хочешь сказать про к4 создавай тему. вот на фото показано. что делает слабый снаряд швак с ме-109. не надо флудить. пожалуйста. реализован м2 ар? м8? м10? нет? почему?

 

I repeat again. theme about American machine guns. if you have something to say about K4, create a topic. here is the photo shown. what makes a weak ShVAK projectile with the me-109. don't flood. You are welcome. implemented m2 ar? M8? M10? no? why?

 

а зачем он там нужен. если действующего боеприпаса хватает? ты об этом не подумал. ещё раз повторяю - хватит флудить.

 

and why it is needed there. if there is enough active ammunition? you didn't think of that. once again, stop flooding.

 

1536547121_shvak_bf109.png

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SAS_Storebror
2 hours ago, =DMD=Honza said:

Sorry but dural is totally ineffective even against .50 if its not heavily angled.

Sorry but apparently that's not fully true.

See below: "The fuel tank is now invulnerable to ... (b) .5 B. Mk. II ... neither of which will penetrate the dural bulkhead inside the aircraft structure."

109FG_armor_protection.thumb.jpg.1718c3b83ca55985c998f9e9947142a4.jpg

 

2 hours ago, =DMD=Honza said:

Next thing is that magnesium in dural is "boosting" power of API ammo

The above mentioned report suggests the same, albeit lacking confirmation.

But it makes sense, so I'd stick to that interesting effect, too - if the projectile is capable of penetrating the armor that is. Which means 20mm or more calibre, according to said report.

 

:drinks:

Mike

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While I still think this deserves it's own thread - that is a very interesting report.  Where is it from?

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