Developer Diary 263 - Discussion

[messsucher]

Here is a bit of interesting and related video. The pilot does not look all that happy and enjoying.

 

 

[Blitzen]

1 hour ago, 56RAF_Talisman said:

 

I think that you will find that it is normal for the pilot to let go of the joystick when blacked out in real life, so the slack force feedback stick modelling in GB is likely to be correct I believe. 

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman 

I think I held on the bike as I keeled over but it all happened so quickly I'm not sure...I can tell you that even though my senses recovered within seconds, I needed a few minutes bent over holding my knees before I could get bicycling again. Honestly my recovery time may have been influenced by my advanced age. I'm relatively sure a 20 year old would have recovered far more quickly than I.

[messsucher]

2 minutes ago, Blitzen said:

I think I held on the bike as I keeled over but it all happened so quickly I'm not sure...I can tell you that even though my senses recovered within seconds, I needed a few minutes bent over holding my knees before I could get bicycling again. Honestly my recovery time may have been influenced by my advanced age. I'm relatively sure a 20 year old would have recovered far more quickly than I.

 

It is a different thing to keep holding a grip on stick than to keep pushing the stick in some direction loaded with control forces, when you lose consciousness.

[Lusekofte]

All I could see was bla bla bla picture of internals of a Hurricane. 
bla bla. 
And that was quite enough ?

[CB77Don246]

What about getting on with the Normandy and aircraft I paid for so long ago. 

[Freycinet]

I can see that the developers have decided to not follow my idea of all players sending in their BMI data for a personalised physical pilot profile. It is very unfair that all sorts of blubbery couch potatos will have the same G-tolerance as a perfect physical specimen such as myself. Oh well, I  guess I will just have to go back to European Air War....

 

/s  ?

Edited October 17, 2020 by Freycinet

[DD_Arthur]

1 hour ago, CB77Don246 said:

What about getting on with the Normandy and aircraft I paid for so long ago. 

Don’t worry Don. It’s all moving along. We’ll be getting Christmas presents too?

[Lusekofte]

1 hour ago, CB77Don246 said:

What about getting on with the Normandy and aircraft I paid for so long ago. 

You should not have prebought  if you cannot wait. 

[migmadmarine]

2 hours ago, CB77Don246 said:

What about getting on with the Normandy and aircraft I paid for so long ago. 

the development time is usually around 2 years... 

[Mollotin]

8 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

 

Agreed.  The fact is the aerial combat we take a part of in this game bears very little relation to what actually took place in WW2.  

 

Well you might be right that not every fight was crazy tight turns and dogfights but those things happened too. I have read multiple first hand accounts of pilots following enemy  planes doing hard evasive maneuvers. Also i remember at least two accounts where a pilot was following enemy in high speed dive and they pulled up so hard that vision was lost, no loss of consciousness tho. This is of course just based on what i have read.

[PhilthySpud]

First time poster here, but long-time lurker. This is a terrific DD. I'm very impressed by the effort the Devs go to, to continuously improve the game. Big thumbs up from me! ?

[CB77Don246]

9 hours ago, migmadmarine said:

the development time is usually around 2 years... 

They don't tell me that (if you are correct with the time scale) when I preordered and all the time our money lies were ? try ordering any other item of the internet and have to wait 2 years the company would not last long. 

When one is in there late 70s one has to think in the short term.

Thanks for the reply.

Edited October 18, 2020 by CB77Don246

[Eisenfaustus]

35 minutes ago, CB77Don246 said:

They don't tell me that (if you are correct with the time scale) when I preordered and all the time our money lies were ? try ordering any other item of the internet and have to wait 2 years the company would not last long. 

When one is in there late 70s one has to think in the short term.

Thanks for the reply.

I‘m sorry but early access is very common on the pc game market nowadays. Many smaller companies couldn’t deliver any product without. And it says early access right there on the store page.
Your money pays the wages of the people completing your product. 

[CSW_Hot_Dog]

On ‎10‎/‎16‎/‎2020 at 5:17 PM, AnPetrovich said:

Since a seat back angle affects a hydrostatic blood pressure due to change of a height of brain above a heart, the math gives: 1/cos(15°) = 1.035, which means 3.5% of increasing.

Did you consider actual position, which pilot mostly sat on the seat? One thing is angle of seat back, another thing is actual angle of pilot due parachute type, loosen seat belts, leaning forward to colimator sight, etc during dogfigt. There will be probably less difference among aircraft types thanks to this, than just anticipate from angle of seat back.

 

Also I did not beleive, that decresing heart-brain heigh by 3.5% will increase g-tollerance by 3.5%. IMHO as biomedical engineer (definitely not working in cardiovascular and g-tollerance physiology area:-), it will be slightly less... Otherwise, seat back of angle 90 degree and zero heart-brain height will lead to unlimited G-tollerance, which is not true for many reasons...

 

Considering this and other minorities, like only human back is siting in that angle, while from neck above to the head, angle is probably same, (otherwise in MIg-3 you would "stare into heaven"), I would add factor to your equation, like 0.7 , 0.8 or so...

 

But otherwise, I must say great and very interesting developer diary and great work on physiology AnPetrovich,  looking forward to see it implemented in the game, my notes are just minor ideas and questions, not a criticism...

Edited October 18, 2020 by CSW_Hot_Dog

[Pollux]

Very good News !

[Toppaso]

Amazing work,

 

I personally love this kind of technical DDs.

It goes a great length to show the attention to detail and dedication to improvement of the team.

 

And the fact that everything is plainly explained and all the sources referenced is awesome.

 

 

 

[AndytotheD]

17 hours ago, Freycinet said:

I can see that the developers have decided to not follow my idea of all players sending in their BMI data for a personalised physical pilot profile. It is very unfair that all sorts of blubbery couch potatos will have the same G-tolerance as a perfect physical specimen such as myself. Oh well, I  guess I will just have to go back to European Air War....

 

/s  ?

I know this is sarcastic but apparently the couch jockeys actually have a higher G tolerance

[Hanu]

3 minutes ago, AndytotheD said:

I know this is sarcastic but apparently the couch jockeys actually have a higher G tolerance

 

G&T tolerance, I'd say.

[Roland_HUNter]

On 10/17/2020 at 11:20 AM, Warjunkie_VR said:

Hartmann, Galland, Rall, Krupinski never mentioned it.

Did u know, why Hans-Joachim Marseille was successful? He could endure the high G, when he boom and zoomed into the british trap circle, what are the others can't endure. So they watched him from above.

On 10/17/2020 at 2:46 PM, SCG_motoadve said:

Agreed, if we watch all the WWII gun cam footage, you never see high G super human maneuvers, there is a reason for it.

Pierre Closterman mentions in his book The Big Show,  how tiring  dog fighting was and because of the G forces.

 

Before the pilot physiology modelling , we could see incredible impossible UFO maneuvers in MP, it ruined immersion and felt very arcade.

Yes and finally, mabye many virtual pilot gonna start realise why every nation started to make faster planes and not focused on turn fighting types.

[357th_Dog]

9 hours ago, CB77Don246 said:

They don't tell me that (if you are correct with the time scale) when I preordered and all the time our money lies were ? try ordering any other item of the internet and have to wait 2 years the company would not last long. 

When one is in there late 70s one has to think in the short term.

Thanks for the reply.

They don't tell you the time frame, but they do tell you that they will be released as they're finished and ready..

"Buy now and take advantage of our Pre-Order discount ($10 OFF) and Early Access program - fly these planes as soon as they are ready!"

The first BON plane, the P-47D22 Razorback, was released in May IIRC. These things take time. 

[Warjunkie_VR]

4 hours ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

Did u know, why Hans-Joachim Marseille was successful? He could endure the high G, when he boom and zoomed into the british trap circle, what are the others can't endure. So they watched him from above.

Yes and finally, mabye many virtual pilot gonna start realise why every nation started to make faster planes and not focused on turn fighting types.

but since I read something else. he constantly broke into the enemy's defensive curve until he was so well trained that he had hit them and thereby he got in trouble because he did not follow the basic rules. This is the first time I have heard about the physiological superiority.

[HR_Zunzun]

I remember that Alexander Pokhriskyn in his memoirs also mentioned getting the upper hand with his Mig3 over emils at low altitude due to what he considered his superior resistance to G forces.

[Roland_HUNter]

1 hour ago, Warjunkie_VR said:

but since I read something else. he constantly broke into the enemy's defensive curve until he was so well trained that he had hit them and thereby he got in trouble because he did not follow the basic rules. This is the first time I have heard about the physiological superiority.

I said the same. ? He he was very tired after those sorites aswell.

[JG7_X-Man]

On 10/16/2020 at 9:59 AM, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

If anyone's wondering about the angles for the seats: 

AnPetrovich has said the Mc 202 is 0 degrees,
Mustang looks like 18 degrees

 

 

.109 looks like 13 degrees

 Spit 13
Hurricane 18 degrees
 

 

We will let the developers come up with there own

 

Your calculations are all all incorrect as the pilot can't recline past the headrest. See below where the magenta line is: 

 

Edited October 19, 2020 by JG7_X-Man

[Barnacles]

2 minutes ago, JG7_X-Man said:

We will let the developers come up with there own

 

Your 18° of the  P-51D is incorrect as the pilot can't recline past the headrest. See below where the magenta line is:

 

Yeah, I mentioned earlier that these are not technical drawings so may not be accurate. The dev's will clearly have either measured cockpits IRL or have the blueprints so I only posted for a quick guide. AnPetrovich on the Russian forums said the German fighters have 20 and 21 degrees for the 109 and 190 respectively.

[JG7_X-Man]

16 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

Yeah, I mentioned earlier that these are not technical drawings so may not be accurate. The dev's will clearly have either measured cockpits IRL or have the blueprints so I only posted for a quick guide. AnPetrovich on the Russian forums said the German fighters have 20 and 21 degrees for the 109 and 190 respectively.

 

Copy that! We all the same thing - correct (corrected) data used where reasonably possible to correctly simulate flight and weapon characteristics of WWII aircraft. I think the developers are doing just that.

[Soilworker]

It cracks me up that the devs put a shit ton of research into pretty much every detail of this sim but there's always someone who comes along with some half remembered, anecdotal evidence or even worse, their own erroneous logic as a basis for a reason why the devs are wrong and then they don't listen even listen to the rebuttals because they're so convinced they're right. (Not to mention the ego damage of being proven wrong...) 

[NN_Razor]

off topic on:"Even if this update will answer to an expectation of a part of our community, i would be glad if this physiological capacity will influence the guners (planes and AA)  ia superman capacities; they still able to shoot u throught the trees, the clouds, even if the plane is shaking or facing the sun..." of topic off.

?

[Bremspropeller]

...but can I now do a negative 4g dive, keep up foreign relations and take polaroid pictures of it all?

[RedKestrel]

8 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

...but can I now do a negative 4g dive, keep up foreign relations and take polaroid pictures of it all?

Only if you are inverted.

[VR-DriftaholiC]

I'm very excited for this the current model was a bit harsh. The pilot could always make a noise like a sick "ugh" "sigh" or "gasp" sound or something when he is getting exhausted to warn pilots who are not using a hud or on harder difficulties if you want to keep that information present. A little audio que can go a long way.

Edited October 20, 2020 by VR-DriftaholiC

[Soilworker]

I don't know, if it was implemented well, maybe but I imagine it would just get annoying like the current breathing technique (seriously, why just one sound file?!) at the very least I would want the possibility to disable it. 

[HR_Zunzun]

18 hours ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

Yeah, I mentioned earlier that these are not technical drawings so may not be accurate. The dev's will clearly have either measured cockpits IRL or have the blueprints so I only posted for a quick guide. AnPetrovich on the Russian forums said the German fighters have 20 and 21 degrees for the 109 and 190 respectively.

If I understood it correctly; If 30º yield a 15% increase in G resistance, and majority of planes have seat tilted between 10-15 to 22º (main fighters probably closer) and assuming that the gains are lineal (so 15º tilt yielded a 50% gain of 30º), I think the differences are not going to be big between the different planes in general (some pair comparison are going to be more significant than other, like the mc202 vs Mig3).

[216th_Jordan]

1 hour ago, HR_Zunzun said:

If I understood it correctly; If 30º yield a 15% increase in G resistance, and majority of planes have seat tilted between 10-15 to 22º (main fighters probably closer) and assuming that the gains are lineal (so 15º tilt yielded a 50% gain of 30º), I think the differences are not going to be big between the different planes in general (some pair comparison are going to be more significant than other, like the mc202 vs Mig3).

 

Cosine is a nonlinear function, but yes, the smaller the angle the lower the effect in this case. Petrovich has given the function, you can calculate it

[Barnacles]

3 hours ago, HR_Zunzun said:

If I understood it correctly; If 30º yield a 15% increase in G resistance, and majority of planes have seat tilted between 10-15 to 22º (main fighters probably closer) and assuming that the gains are lineal (so 15º tilt yielded a 50% gain of 30º), I think the differences are not going to be big between the different planes in general (some pair comparison are going to be more significant than other, like the mc202 vs Mig3).

AnPetrovich said that the formula for the percentage G reduction of a sloped seat compared with a vertical (Macchi 202) seat, is 1-(cos X) where X is the angle of the seat to the vertical.

So worst case scenario, Macchi at 0 degrees v 190 at 21 degrees, is going to be a 6.6% difference in effective G force.

If the spitfire is 13 degrees slope, then there'll be a 4% difference between it and the 190.

As I said, the 3D models will have been made using blueprints or measuring the IRL planes, so those pictures were just a rough estimate. The Dev's will plug their pre existing numbers in.

Edited October 20, 2020 by 71st_AH_Barnacles

[daliborsky]

personal experence from my military flying times - I can concur what AnPetrovich is trying to tell. On top of that - I never experienced GLOC myself, max G I ever pulled was 7.8 G with G-suit. I did experinece partial loss of perfiferial vision during both phases - tunneling and gray out, but not to gloc, I can concure, that one has control of the aircraft all the time, eventhough the vision is very limited or even totaly obscured. So brain-extremities link is working all the time. I presume that one looses control of the aircraft after gloc, but bare in mind, that all aircraft are inherently stabile, so they will not fall from the sky, they will rather try to return from upset state (pulling a turn) to stabile state (straight and level). Few people here have correctly noted, that this physhological model has to be enabled for ai as well.

 

on inclined seats - they help in postpoining the tunneling or even gloc, but not per se, but rather contribute. Other factors are physic state of the pilot, breathing techniques and muscle contractions. The biggest help is of course gsuit of any kind.

Edited October 20, 2020 by daliborsky

[TheBlackPenguin]

I recommend watching Tim's video on the Shoreham crash, as it does explain physiology well and its easy to follow:

 

 

5 hours ago, daliborsky said:

 Few people here have correctly noted, that this physhological model has to be enabled for ai as well.

 

 

 

What did you fly? F-16's? :). I highlighted this reply as its a bugbear of mine, I personally hate when the AI obviously cheats, and not having the same effects is basically that imho.

[daliborsky]

no, old jet trainers in ex Yugoslavia The machine guns and "hud" were same as in P-47

[Elem]

12 hours ago, TheBlackPenguin said:

I highlighted this reply as its a bugbear of mine, I personally hate when the AI obviously cheats, and not having the same effects is basically that imho.

But it does. It's been said many times, even in this DD.

[onlyforbrian]

My attitude is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".  World of Warships did the same, they had a good game, but were tinkering so much that they turned it to crap.