Gentlemen I think it Time the Devs Brought in the Ta 152

[HBPencil]

I'm fine with any new aircraft that's added to the game although there are other's I'd like to see first e.g. A-9.

Just an aside, Owen Mitchell would've been 23 or 24 at the time of his death. He had joined the RNZAF in 1942 but had spent most of his time as an instructor (the RNZAF went through a massive expansion and so the top few pilots from each pilot course were sent to Instructor school), and he wasn't released for operational flying until late in the war when he joined 486 just three weeks before his death. So he had plenty of flying hours but very few on ops at the time of his death.

Edited October 17, 2020 by HBPencil

[Bremspropeller]

On 10/19/2020 at 3:52 PM, No.41_Glen said:

I'm afriad 500hrs  is only the basic level for allied new pilot, and Ta152  pilots were luftwaffe ACEs with thousands hrs

 

Not really.

I'd be surprised if Willi Reschke even had 500hrs total.

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

If it existed as a combat operational aircraft during the war and there's enough information/documents to accurately model it, I'm all for it.  It doesn't matter to me if it only flew 1 mission or 1,000.   I wouldn't want "blueprint only" aircraft like IL-2 '46 offered, though.  It was a neat bit of bonus for that title but, I wouldn't want to see it here. 

 

I know there's arguments about how bad it would bone multiplayer but, I'm more about just being able to fly these legendary machines.  Believe it or not, some of us do quite enjoy solo-timing in these airplanes in spite of the sentiment that if you're not a pure combat pilot, you ain't an Il-2 fan.  The flight model might not be 100% perfect to real world characteristics but, it's close enough that "taking the roadster out for a country drive" is still worth taking the time to do.  Props to the devs in that regard, IMO.

[JG7_X-Man]

On 10/19/2020 at 9:52 AM, No.41_Glen said:

 

 I'm afriad 500hrs  is only the basic level for allied new pilot, and Ta152  pilots were luftwaffe ACEs with thousands hrs, last but not least, during that combat Tempest destroyed Ta152 too although allied pilots reported them as 190.

 

 

 

LOL! Another classic case of "...it made sense until I posted it on the forum" 

Dude, you do know that in the spring '45 when the Ta 152 hit arrived to Luftwaffe units there were more planes than pilots at the time.

I guess your logic is the new hotness were reserved for the "aces" LOL?

 

I didn't bother voting as the Ta 152 is about as useful to the maps we have as a sub zero freezer is to an Eskimo.

Edited October 28, 2020 by JG7_X-Man

[Honza]

Why not, if we get, spit mk22, meteor, La-7, Yak-3,, P51H and P47M... As they are same unicorns as TAs, oh wait, exept they have built multiple times more 51Hs than there were Ta152s. USA had around 500 P51Hs at the end of war. I really have no idea why only germans should have upper hand and in the moment LW have worse plane, its not real. WAKE up, LW had trash against allies through late 43 and whole 44... 

Edited October 30, 2020 by =DMD=Honza

[LukeFF]

8 hours ago, =DMD=Honza said:

USA had around 500 P51Hs at the end of war.

 

And precisely 0 of them ever saw action or were ever deployed overseas.

[sevenless]

On 10/25/2020 at 2:08 PM, Bremspropeller said:

 

Not really.

I'd be surprised if Willi Reschke even had 500hrs total.

 

Here: http://www.luftwaffe.cz/reschke.html

 

Quote

Willi Reschke flew about 70 missions in achieving 27 victories.He recorded 25 victories over the Western front, including 20 four-engine bombers. He was shot down 8 times, baling out 4 times, and was wounded once.

 

Maybe 1-1,5 hours per mission flight time (my estimate).

[CUJO_1970]

15 hours ago, =DMD=Honza said:

WAKE up, LW had trash against allies through late 43 and whole 44... 

 

Wake up, the Allies lost an appalling number of aircraft and aircrew flying against that "trash" in 1943 and 44.

Edited October 31, 2020 by CUJO_1970

[ZachariasX]

I just don‘t get this fetish for the ultra ultimate fighter that was never really operational, if ever.

 

There are so many early war planes. The Gloster Gladiator, a mighty fine biplane. The Fiat CR.42, the Swordfish (Did I just say carrier, torprdoes, radar?). There‘s tons of aircraft that saw lots of important action and that were used for years. Why skip those for those makeshift unicorns?

 

The only campaign you could make with the Ta-152 is „Lose the war with Willy Reschke in three missions“. Think of all the places where you could use a Gladiator or a Hs-123. If it had to be a late war aircraft, the Swordfish will do, it was used until May 1945. 12 years of service! Now THAT is an aircraft. 

 

 

[Bremspropeller]

I guess it's the Darth Vader appeal that keeps people circling about all ze late war german wonderstuff.

[DN308]

I think is mostly time to make firsthand some AI a/c instead of designing some new ones.

[Honza]

16 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

And precisely 0 of them ever saw action or were ever deployed overseas.

Exept few squadrons were equiped with them before surrender of japan and they were already in Pacific. USA didnt fielded something instantly like germany without proper testing, enough spare parts and training... 

10 hours ago, CUJO_1970 said:

 

Wake up, the Allies lost an appalling number of aircraft and aircrew flying against that "trash" in 1943 and 44.

Yeah... slow, huge bombers. Already in late 43-44, western allies had superior ratio in air combat without bombers in statistics. 

Edited October 31, 2020 by =DMD=Honza

[Eisenfaustus]

1 hour ago, =DMD=Honza said:

Yeah... slow, huge bombers. Already in late 43-44, western allies had superior ratio in air combat without bombers in statistics. 

Weak argument - of course the intercepting side will concentrate on bombers - RAF did the same in 1940

 

Nevertheless - I think you are right that in 1944 most allied planes were superior to their German adversaries. But not because of bad design but because they were badly built by unlearned slave labour. VVS has similar problems in 41 and 42. Yak 1 was theoretically a great design that was practically badly built. In game both early VVS and late LW planes are depicted in a perfectly built state - a good decision in my opinion.  
 

But in my opinion decline in German pilot training is way more important in Allied advantage in air combat then airplane quality anyways. 
 

5 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

I just don‘t get this fetish for the ultra ultimate fighter that was never really operational, if ever.

 

There are so many early war planes. The Gloster Gladiator, a mighty fine biplane. The Fiat CR.42, the Swordfish (Did I just say carrier, torprdoes, radar?). There‘s tons of aircraft that saw lots of important action and that were used for years. Why skip those for those makeshift unicorns?

 

The only campaign you could make with the Ta-152 is „Lose the war with Willy Reschke in three missions“. Think of all the places where you could use a Gladiator or a Hs-123. If it had to be a late war aircraft, the Swordfish will do, it was used until May 1945. 12 years of service! Now THAT is an aircraft. 

 

 

Can‘t I want both? My first choice for new module would be battle of France with a hs 123 - but I‘d take that plane alongside I-15 or I-153 as collector planes for bom as well. 
And in spite of all this I‘d still love to have a ta-152 h-1 available. 
And a fw190a3‘esque solution as in deploying airplanes on the career map that could have been deployed even if they weren’t to be able to fly them would be ok for me as well. 
In such a fashion Gloster Meteor could be added to Bodenplatte. (Farer stretched then the Anton in bos - but ok for me) 

[ZachariasX]

44 minutes ago, Eisenfaustus said:

Can‘t I want both?

All of them, that would be best. But just looking at the production numbers should give some indication of relevance.

 

I'd absolutely hate early war (1939-41, THREE effin' years!) scenarios not coming to this sim, as they seem offloaded to CloD. And I just can't - and I keep trying - like that sim.

 

 

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, Eisenfaustus said:

In game both early VVS and late LW planes are depicted in a perfectly built state - a good decision in my opinion.  

 

Not sure about the late war German stuff, but multiple developers have emphatically refuted the idea that Soviet planes are modeled after perfectly-built planes - they are all based on planes pulled off the factory production floor. 

3 hours ago, =DMD=Honza said:

Exept few squadrons were equiped with them before surrender of japan and they were already in Pacific.

 

What squadrons?

[Avimimus]

21 hours ago, LukeFF said:

And precisely 0 of them ever saw action or were ever deployed overseas.

 

True... unless one does an Operation Unthinkable... with a rapid arms race leading to war breaking out in '48 or '49!

 

4 hours ago, Eisenfaustus said:

Can‘t I want both? My first choice for new module would be battle of France with a hs 123 - but I‘d take that plane alongside I-15 or I-153 as collector planes for bom as well. 
And in spite of all this I‘d still love to have a ta-152 h-1 available. 

 

Reasonable. I'm most interested in filling out the existing plane-sets to get a better representation of the other aircraft operating in the area (e.g. an I-153, an AI Fw-189), but I still kindof want a He-162... it is such an odd combination of clever design and horrible design, of rapid/cheap and state of the art...

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

11 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

I just don‘t get this fetish for the ultra ultimate fighter that was never really operational, if ever.

 

There are so many early war planes. The Gloster Gladiator, a mighty fine biplane. The Fiat CR.42, the Swordfish (Did I just say carrier, torprdoes, radar?). There‘s tons of aircraft that saw lots of important action and that were used for years. Why skip those for those makeshift unicorns?

 

I think there is more to it than "ultimate fighter fetish" - this aircraft is interesting thanks to its somewhat unique design elements, such as the combined GM-1 and MW 50 injection systems and the high-AR wing. It would attract attention even without spectacular performance.

 

As far as I'm aware, there is conclusive evidence that the Ta 152 was operational to a limited extent.

[Eisenfaustus]

3 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Not sure about the late war German stuff, but multiple developers have emphatically refuted the idea that Soviet planes are modeled after perfectly-built planes - they are all based on planes pulled off the factory production floor. 

For all I know early soviet/late german planes came in mixed quality from the factories. So the ingame respresentation might not be the perfectly built, but the best factory built airplane. I read in an osprey duel book, that 41/42 soviet planes had big differences in weight, balance, control surface quality and whatever the shape of the airframe itself many lacked important instruments, very very few had a reflector gunsight. Late german planes, outputs of Speers Jägernotprogramm (Fighter emergency programme) also varied heavily in quality. Some built by the same qualified labour as before - most in hastily converted factories by unlearned forced labour.

 

Still choosing from all realistically available options those that would be most fun to fly is reasonable.

[ZachariasX]

12 hours ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

 

I think there is more to it than "ultimate fighter fetish" - this aircraft is interesting thanks to its somewhat unique design elements, such as the combined GM-1 and MW 50 injection systems and the high-AR wing. It would attract attention even without spectacular performance.

 

As far as I'm aware, there is conclusive evidence that the Ta 152 was operational to a limited extent.

The thing is, as Reschke used it, there is no real difference in operating the aircraft than your vanilla 190D9. The injection system was only good at high sltitude. Down low there is no benefit from the „Haha-device“.

 

The Ta-152 was made to intercept the B-29 that (for good reason) never materialized over Germany. It could be used to intercept PR Spitfires, like the Mk.XIX. Then you‘d be looking for trying to intercept an aircraft that is on par in every respect except that it has no guns. Still, good luck with that. Me-262 crews (of whom there were many more) must think you‘re the idiot of idiots.

 

You really had to make up a scenario for the Ta-152H to give it purpose. Not so for the Ta-152C.

Edited November 1, 2020 by ZachariasX

[LukeFF]

22 hours ago, Avimimus said:

I still kindof want a He-162... it is such an odd combination of clever design and horrible design, of rapid/cheap and state of the art...

 

I fell in love with the He 162 when I saw one at the Planes of Fame Museum in Chino, California - so much so that I collected all sorts of cockpit reference material and somehow managed to piece together a cockpit for it that was included in the Ace Expansion Pack for the original IL2.  

[BornToBattle]

Since aircraft used are module dependent and not just thrown out there randomly like Warbirds the same would apply to the Ta-152. So if the theater and time frame fit, and if there is such a period and timeframe that fits it now, I’m assuming the team gives serious consideration to each type of aircraft to produce and weighs it respectively in regards to the module in question. Since I don’t play multiplayer I’ve got no feelings either way on that topic.

 

I can see with the map and plane sets chosen for Normandy to the inclusion of the V-1, a totally new BoB Great Battles module would be the most logical next step which would mean no Ta-152 - but that is just my opinion and another subject altogether.

 

Cheers!

Edited November 1, 2020 by BornToBattle

[Avimimus]

5 hours ago, LukeFF said:

I fell in love with the He 162 when I saw one at the Planes of Fame Museum in Chino, California - so much so that I collected all sorts of cockpit reference material and somehow managed to piece together a cockpit for it that was included in the Ace Expansion Pack for the original IL2.  

 

Oh! Wow! That was a long time ago. Back in the day I actually think I took some pictures of the cockpit of the one we have in Ottawa for you... but I'm not sure if they ever got to you - they might have been obsolete by the time I got the film developed (didn't have a digital camera of any quality)!

 

I loved that plane in AEP! I still fly it! I'd forgotten you were involved in making it!

[Honza]

On 10/31/2020 at 5:34 PM, LukeFF said:

 

What squadrons?

https://www.avgeekery.com/the-ultimate-mustang-north-americans-advanced-lightweight-p-51h/

https://www.mustangsmustangs.net/p-51/variants/p51h  If you want to look for specific units and you know where to look, feel free to look for them but i have no idea how to find equipment of specific units in specific dates. As hotel mustangs were relocated to air national guard after the war. 

[Lofte]

On ‎10‎/‎17‎/‎2020 at 12:48 PM, THERION said:

Kurt Tank,

We don't need a Kurt, we need StuG III !!!

[sevenless]

On 10/31/2020 at 3:35 AM, CUJO_1970 said:

 

Wake up, the Allies lost an appalling number of aircraft and aircrew flying against that "trash" in 1943 and 44.

 

Yep. You can see that in the US Strategic Bombing Survey which is available (in part) online here. It was a bloody attritional mess for both sides:

 

http://www.allworldwars.com/The Defeat of the German Air Force.html

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by sevenless

[Avimimus]

Interesting chart. I wonder if the increase in losses per engagement is due to changes in priorities/tactics or equipment? Also, one can see the collapse of the Luftwaffe's interception ability seems to already be happening during the beginning of '44 andeffectively  evaporates entirely by the middle of '44.

 

That link is excellent!

[Bremspropeller]

On 10/31/2020 at 3:36 PM, Eisenfaustus said:

Nevertheless - I think you are right that in 1944 most allied planes were superior to their German adversaries. But not because of bad design but because they were badly built by unlearned slave labour

 

German airplanes didn't blow in 1944 because of slave labor. They were substandard because the RLM had spent the past years eyes wide shut about engine-development.

They were busy phantasising about super-planes, when doing the obvious (like curing the 190's high altitude weakness at BMW by adding a more capable supercharger system) was never even seriously tried. It wasn't the engine-manufacturers that dropped the ball - it was the supposedly super-human management by RLM's nazi-clique in charge.

 

The Jumo 213 had ducktons of potential - we're talking ~2700HP in the 213J. Too bad, they (RLM) didn't focus and actually freed ressources so the engine-developers could develop the engine to fruition before the war was over. The same is true for the ultimate DB603L and 603N.

 

Fun fact:

The Jumo 213 was designed to fit the DB603's airframe-interfaces. A very far-sighted decision by the Jumo engineers early on, given the 213 and the 603 were the only piston-engine projects left alive at the end of the war!

 

On 10/31/2020 at 10:50 PM, ZachariasX said:

The Ta-152 was made to intercept the B-29 that (for good reason) never materialized over Germany. It could be used to intercept PR Spitfires, like the Mk.XIX. Then you‘d be looking for trying to intercept an aircraft that is on par in every respect except that it has no guns. Still, good luck with that. Me-262 crews (of whom there were many more) must think you‘re the idiot of idiots.

 

You really had to make up a scenario for the Ta-152H to give it purpose. Not so for the Ta-152C.

 

Well, the Ta 152 was the next development-step. The H is just a specialised sub-variant for where the air is thin and cold.

Interestingly, some ideas from the 152 (e.g. additional fuel and MW-50 tanks in the wings) were supposed to be carried over to the late Doras.

Those, in turn, were going to get the Jumo 213EB with an intercooler and MW-50 injection for additional performace.

Focke-Wulf estimated an additional 40km/h speed-gain over the already pretty fast D-12 and D-13.

 

Fun Fact:

The British were doing tests with a reverse-engineered GM-1 system for the Mosquito. Had they fielded the system, the Mossie would have been almost impossible to catch - even for a 262.

 

 

"The secret Horsepower Race" by Calum Douglas => A very interesting book, folks!

[ZachariasX]

22 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

The H is just a specialised sub-variant for where the air is thin and cold.

Yes, but why would you invest going there, when there is absolutely nothing of interest. Especially when you're getting seal-clubbed (due to sheer numbers of opponents) everywhere between 0 to 20k ft altitude.

 

That they intended to improve on the existing Fw-190 is evident, both in terms of production as well in terms of it as a weapon. The first new trick to materialize being the least useful is just funny. You can also predict all day long what might be when you get a decent blower on your engine. What counts is only what leaves the shop and gets tranferred to squadrons. *)

 

But same on the other side of the Channel. They made the Spit VI and VII high altitude variants that were later often then used at low altitude, then without mounting the canopy. Conversely, the highest altitude fight of WW2 was between a Spitfire Mk.IX and a Ju-86P.

 

The best low altitide Spit is the Mk.VB LF, and everybody hated that crate. There is one aircraft everybody liked, that was the MkIX LF, as that was the one with oomph all the way between 0 and 24k ft. The great aircraft is a boring one.

 

*) As someone once said: "Wichtig ist, was hinten rauskommt."

[Bremspropeller]

4 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

That they intended to improve on the existing Fw-190 is evident, both in terms of production as well in terms of it as a weapon. The first new trick to materialize being the least useful is just funny. You can also predict all day long what might be when you get a decent blower on your engine. What counts is only what leaves the shop and gets tranferred to squadrons.

 

That's probably because the engine was ready'ish.

They had a lot of issues with the third supercharger-gear, because it was designed too weak and liked to break. So they had to re-design it.

 

The Ta 152C used the DB603LA, which was only going to be ready in mid '45.

The 603LA was a two-stage supercharger-design, which was new* for DB.

 

All those engines ran on B4, which was a tremendous strain for the chosen paths development. Especially since B4-quality tended to be low in terms of it's anti-knock contents.

Ideas to improve knock-resistance by adding more additives proved semi-practical, as it would eat away the spark-plugs.

___

* In practice, not in theory. There was an experimental DB601 with a two-staged supercharger in 1940.

[OPX]

I'm ready for the TA 152 !!

[Trooper117]

It's coming in 2034... be sure!

[Avimimus]

On 5/20/2021 at 5:56 AM, Trooper117 said:

It's coming in 2034... be sure!

 

Actually... assuming one theatre every two years... 2034 would give us time for:

1945 Eastern

Battle of Britain

Korea

Europe 1950-1955

Leningrad

North Africa

Italy

 

So, they'd need to lower their standards enough to do the Pacific... or do the Battle of France or something  Or randomly give us a Ta-152.

 

Of course, that is assuming that all of these theatres are profitable enough to justify continued work (questionable) and assuming key team members don't want to retire at some point.