Developer Diary, Part XVII

[Zorin]

Everyone halt. Hands off the keyboards. Stop developement. There's a red bit on my gauge. The game is ruined.

 

I've been googling around, and it seems like there are a few refurbished 109s with the red tick on the gauge. Maybe this is a something added after the war? How about we go and find out? Or how about we ask the developers their reasoning for putting it in there. What's going on is melodramatic crying and the dismissal of a product that hasn't even been released. You guys really aren't offering help by saying "Why do you do everything wrong?" and "You should put this or that in despite the only source of evidence being my post here."

 

The cockpits look good, and I'm glad to get this kind of communication between developers and fanbase. And if I may put in my personal preference towards the updates, I'd love to see how the damage model looks with the RoF engine. Idk if it's just me, but I'd be more excited to see one dent in a fuselage than 300 pinpoint-accurate gauges.

 

1. We are LONG past the point of postings containing references. People do get tired of putting up elaborate posts just to see them being ignored by the devs. Just check the very section of this forum "dedicated" to this very matter.

 

2. Badly translated Q&A, up to 4 screenshots of the same object and a handful of appeasing posts by Jason is not the pinnacle of communication, not even by a long shot.

 

3. I agree, would love to see the damage engine, but that would actually mean showing us something NEW and INTERESTING, but that has yet to happen once.

[DD_bongodriver]

I know I'd feel much more confident flying if I knew I had a cosmetic dent modelled on my plane instead of accurate instruments.........

 

Edited May 26, 2013 by bongodriver

[JG13_opcode]

Ok, so we're down to somebody in here saying openly what amounts to "I'm going to be rude and annoying because that seems to be the only way to elicit answers".... What makes you think that you (of all people in the world) are entitled to the developers giving you their attention? - If it was only you, no problem, but there are hundreds of people out there who all want exclusive access to the developers. How many of you are so convinced of being specially entitled that you decide that you'll just drop all decorum and polite behaviour and start pestering the developers until your little particular issue gets a hearing? Can't you see how intolerable the whole interaction gets for everybody with I dozens deciding that they merit special attention and then souring all threads with bitching and moaning?

 

Well, I'm obviously talking to a wall here. Just amazing how people can't look beyond themselves and maybe get a realistic idea of their place in the bigger view of things... Surely that is not how you act in real life? "Oh, nobody listens to me around the dinner table. I'll just shout and be obnoxious till someone takes notice!"... Huh?

This attitude is counterproductive. The developers aren't monarchs or Greek gods that demand worship before they'll descend from on high. You might be prepared to kiss their feet, but you don't speak for everyone in the community.

 

After CLOD, we are right to be skeptical, and JTD is right when he says that asking polite questions rarely get a response from the developers, whereas people making a big fuss seem to get attention much faster.

 

I don't have a problem with the lastest update, because quite frankly after what we were used to with CLOD, it's a big step forward. But then again, I'm realistic because I have low, low expectations for this development team, ESPECIALLY when it comes to community relations.

 

Do you buy a car without test driving it, or without reading info from the manufacturer and learning about the engine, the suspension, and what sort of options you get for the upholstery? Unless you're a naive child, I doubt it.

 

If they want us to buy their game then yes, we the buyers are ENTITLED to get some information. Anyone who says differently is just a fanboy.

 

Sooner or later they'll realize that they need us more than we need them.

Edited May 26, 2013 by JG13Doggles

[Freycinet]

Exactly, they aren't Greek gods, they're people just like you and me. Do you believe in being disrespectful to other people just like you? They have schedules and priorities and a budget to work on, which is something all the forum critics are blissfully free from. If they were to give detailed answers to each and every posting in the suggestions thread they wouldn't have any time left for actual developement. If they were to ACT on every single point raised to them... same thing. People can come with help and suggestions, that's totally fine. But when they start to DEMAND that developers do specific things it gets a bit out of hand, don't you think so?

 

Anyway, you guys decided that you're all going to MAKE A BIG FUSS about each and every little detail that happens to be your little hobby horse. That will be great fun and really make everybody happy... Not.       

[JG13_opcode]

Exactly, they aren't Greek gods, they're people just like you and me. Do you believe in being disrespectful to other people just like you?

What I don't believe in is walking on eggshells around someone, just because they're making a product I might purchase in the future.

 

They have schedules and priorities and a budget to work on, which is something all the forum critics are blissfully free from.

Well, that might be true for you, but when you get out of school and enter the real world you'll have schedules and budgets and priorities to work on at your job, too.

 

If they were to give detailed answers to each and every posting in the suggestions thread they wouldn't have any time left for actual developement.

This statement is false, unless the developers are also the ones doing Q&A's. If that's the case then why don't they hire some PR people? Oh wait, they did....

 

If they were to ACT on every single point raised to them... same thing. People can come with help and suggestions, that's totally fine. But when they start to DEMAND that developers do specific things it gets a bit out of hand, don't you think so?

I'm fairly certain JtD was simply asking for an explanation.

 

Anyway, you guys decided that you're all going to MAKE A BIG FUSS about each and every little detail that happens to be your little hobby horse. That will be great fun and really make everybody happy... Not.

And you decided that you'll act as the White Knight in Shining Armour to protect the poor, defenseless developers from the big, bad customers who want info about the game they're making. Jason comes on here acting arrogant, like we owe it to him to buy his game, and that we owe it to PC gaming as a whole because if you believe Jason, then if this product fails, then nobody will ever make another WW2 sim, ever. For the rest of eternity. Well, I for one am not drinking the kool-aid when it comes to that.

 

There are plenty of development studios with much smaller teams who somehow manage to have really really good public relations. At this point all I want is some earnest communication, and I for one find it irksome that people like you keep enabling such poor PR behaviour from this development team, Freycinet.

Edited May 26, 2013 by JG13Doggles

[APIKalimba]

JtD, as much as we tend to not get along, I have to agree with you. Either do something right or don't do it at all. There is not a single reason why they keep making these mistakes. They work for months, as we are being told, on a single cockpit and still can't manage to at least get the gauges and labels right. How sad is that?

 

And to all who critizise JtD for saying this out loud, would you not mind the fuel gauge in your car being wrong or the speedometer having a wrong reeadout netting you a ton of speeding tickets? Just for a moment: THINK BEFORE YOU POST YOUR FANBOYISH NONSENSE. These things have to be correct or otherwise there is no point in calling this a SIMULATOR.

Oh. I see. You then compare REAL LIFE issues with a game and its virtual consequences. In my car, my speedometer refletes my REAL speed on a REAL road with REAL people. REAL consequences here.

SOW is a game you know. So all the developpers have to do, is write other numbers and you all "accurate people fanboys " will be happy ?

Well: Please developpers, could you write other numbers, chosen by the most well informed members on this forum, so we can play the sim as soon as possible  ?

I've been on CLOD forum since 2001. I've never ever seen any concensus about FM, colors, gauges ,tracers, etc, among  "accurate people fanboys ". And I am desapointed to see it is still going on....

So I think I am also entitiled to express my "point of view" regarding the developpement of SOW.

And by the way, who is to decide what defines the rules for a game to become  a SIMULATOR  ?

[BG09]

CloD set very high standars, which are dificult to be met and surpassed... Jason dificult task I see ahead of you team...push harder... Just do it...

[Caudron431]

Ok, so we're down to somebody in here saying openly what amounts to "I'm going to be rude and annoying because that seems to be the only way to elicit answers".... What makes you think that you (of all people in the world) are entitled to the developers giving you their attention? - If it was only you, no problem, but there are hundreds of people out there who all want exclusive access to the developers. How many of you are so convinced of being specially entitled that you decide that you'll just drop all decorum and polite behaviour and start pestering the developers until your little particular issue gets a hearing? Can't you see how intolerable the whole interaction gets for everybody with I dozens deciding that they merit special attention and then souring all threads with bitching and moaning?

 

Well, I'm obviously talking to a wall here. Just amazing how people can't look beyond themselves and maybe get a realistic idea of their place in the bigger view of things... Surely that is not how you act in real life? "Oh, nobody listens to me around the dinner table. I'll just shout and be obnoxious till someone takes notice!"... Huh? 

+1 you hit the nail on the head!

 

Plus if one really wants to help, why not saying directly and precisely what's wrong, with supporting documents/evidence directly on these boards, with a polite tone (option), since one is soooo concerned about the sim taking all the wrong pathes! That would be great for the whole community.

But wait, no, one does not really want to  help, there's something else behind such a bitter behaviour, lol. Like the will to be on the credit lines of the game... I guess...

When i think how much respect i had for some guys before, then i really thought these guys were nice and generous. This show is simply incredible.

Edited May 26, 2013 by RegRag1977

[JtD]

why not saying directly and precisely what's wrong, with supporting documents/evidence directly on these boards,

Gets ignored. Or no response. Or some excuse. Whatever, nothing I've seen on these boards has lead to anything. So I wonder if we'll be stuck with that 2008 G-10 rpm gauge on the 1942 F-4. Development might be "too far advanced to consider this at this point". Maybe it gets put into all German aircraft that used the Fl.20222. You don't care - fine. I do. Should also be fine.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Ai yi yi, it's a sim, not life or death. Like it or don't like it. If you hate a game which hasn't been released yet why bother to post. It has even been said by some that their own comments have no effect on the dev team?! So, it seems it's more about stirring people up than contributing - and mission accomplished. It's time for a mod to take control here before we spiral down the banana path like the days of old.

[Uufflakke]

I feel a Bingo coming up in this thread.

 

 

 

[DD_Arthur]

I think JtD is quite right to raise concerns. 777 has made a point of the fidelity of their sims and correct gauges are an important part of that fidelity.

 

Isn't this part of the reason we have a forum?

[Zorin]

@-arthursmedley: Be prepared for the onslaught. You don't defend reasonable people around here. Bad form and all... xD

 

Why is the entire forum not read only anyway? The devs don't engage in dialog, the fanboys fight like mad little girls to defend their, unborn, holy cow and all others who want to actually help shape this "thing" with viable input are ridiculed.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Zorin

[71st_AH_Hooves]

The best way I can take all this hostility is that people are just VERY excited in the release.  Even if their 2 grader mentality blurts out anything that happens to cross their mind  lol.

[Feathered_IV]

Anyone who is serious about offering corrections and revisions to work revealed in the updates should start a topic that the admins can make a sticky. In it, make a link to the update in discussion. Explain the revision, add references for the correction and move on. Keep the BS and goading of other forum members to a minimum and let the thread be a go to resource for the developers. One can hardly expect them to trawl through an interminable number of hostile foreign language threads and post in the hope of finding something useful.

[APIKalimba]

Fanboy or not fanboy...Some say that if BOS is not perfectly accurate to the needle, it is worthless...Can't be called a simulator...

Others say that even if few details are innacurate, in its whole, it can be a real good simulator.

So who's right ? I don't know. But what I do know is at this point in developpement, gauges and few "labels" are already

sources of argumentations...What will it be when ballistic, FM, and really important issues like those arise ? 

 

I may be a fanboy, but at this point, and especially considering the whole CLOD experience, I choose to say " thank you and very good WIP updates. Keep on the good work.''.

And if at release we have a good working beautiful sim , I will be very happy. I will enjoy the blue sky with nice fluffy clouds and great feeling of flight. And if on the gauge I see 2500 instead of 2700, I will live with it. 

[Bearcat]

OK enough of this. Constructive criticism is welcome but some of the stuff in this thread is just ridiculous and all of you need to step back from the keyboard before you post again. This thread is not the "whine your butt off like a little girl" thread so give it a rest.

[StG2_Manfred]

Perhaps a case of lack space to write one more "a"...

 

http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/instrumente/katalog/anzeigen/gross/Fl50869.gif

 

 

Sokol1

 

Yes Sokol, that could be the reason, indeed. Correct German spelling would be 'Waagerecht', but this doesn't mean necessarily that it was spelled/written in that way within the 109 cockpit in the 1940ies...

 

I found this pic in the web, which looks quite real for me:

 

 

Whether Waagerecht or Wagerecht shouldn't a problem for us nor a reason to not to enjoy this sim, I think...

[Caudron431]

Gets ignored. Or no response. Or some excuse. Whatever, nothing I've seen on these boards has lead to anything. So I wonder if we'll be stuck with that 2008 G-10 rpm gauge on the 1942 F-4. Development might be "too far advanced to consider this at this point". Maybe it gets put into all German aircraft that used the Fl.20222. You don't care - fine. I do. Should also be fine.

Well, i'm sorry to hear this, frankly...

 It is extremely fine that people as knowledgeable as yourself care, it is definitely a good thing, however it's the attitude in your posts that i find difficult to understand.

I would like to ask the moderators to follow Feathered_IV excellent idea of stickied thread, i think it could help to calm the atmosphere and let knowledgeable people keep a record of all their remarks and constructive criticism.

 

Anyone who is serious about offering corrections and revisions to work revealed in the updates should start a topic that the admins can make a sticky. In it, make a link to the update in discussion. Explain the revision, add references for the correction and move on. Keep the BS and goading of other forum members to a minimum and let the thread be a go to resource for the developers. One can hardly expect them to trawl through an interminable number of hostile foreign language threads and post in the hope of finding something useful.

 Feathered, this is an excellent idea again!

Edited May 27, 2013 by RegRag1977

[Uufflakke]

Yes Sokol, that could be the reason, indeed. Correct German spelling would be 'Waagerecht', but this doesn't mean necessarily that it was spelled/written in that way within the 109 cockpit in the 1940ies...

 

I found this pic in the web, which looks quite real for me:

 

 

Whether Waagerecht or Wagerecht shouldn't a problem for us nor a reason to not to enjoy this sim, I think...

 

The same discussion is going on at the ATAG site: Waagerecht or Wagerecht.

 

On every image of the instruments for the Bf-109 or 110 I found it says Wagerecht.

 

Just out of curiosity, I will ask a German friend of mine (born in 1927) wether the WWII spelling was Wagerecht or Waagerecht like it is nowadays.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JG4_Sputnik]

 

 

Do you buy a car without test driving it, or without reading info from the manufacturer and learning about the engine, the suspension, and what sort of options you get for the upholstery? Unless you're a naive child, I doubt it.

 

 

 

Haha seriously...?

BoS isn't a car which can kill you if the brakes don't work perfectly - FYI it's a Flight Simulator (and it costs you just a fraction of a car as well).  And many of us DO buy it WITHOUT checking every single pixel in advance because we like to SUPPORT the only Sim Developer who brings us Sims like RoF and BoS. And we try to make the best out of it. Simple as that.

 

In addition, I bet you sit on a 1500 $ rig with a Saitek x52 and Track IR plugged in and now you threaten the devs to not buy their 50-100$ product if it is not exactely how you wanted it?

Maybe you should reconsider your priorities.

[JtD]

I don't get the wagerecht / waagerecht debate. It's wagerecht. That's what was written on the box. Nothing else.

 

But for fans of the German language:

 

"Durch eine Bekanntmachung des Reichsministers des Innern vom 5. Juli 1927 (Reichsministerialblatt 1927, Nr. 29, S. 205) wurde, einer Anregung der Technik entsprechend, die Schreibung Waage (an Stelle von bisherigem Wage) zur besseren Unterscheidung vom Wagen in die amtliche Rechtschreibung aufgenommen. Schon vorher hatte die ???

Edited May 27, 2013 by JtD

[89-]

A cylinder temp gauge ranging from 0-130 with the limits being in the 200 range is useless. A fuel gauge showing empty when there still are 15% capacity left is useless. And such. These are my, possibly unfounded, worries.

 

Do you know why there's a red line at 2600 rpm in the screen shots? I don't. But it will probably cause a bit of confusion among those who pay attention - the rpm limit for the DB 601E being 2750 max (or 2500 for combat power and 2700 for emergency), and we're told we can fly the aircraft by the book. I haven't seen an real instrument showing this line. Why put it in? What's the point? Why not leave it out, have less work and a more correct cockpit? I just don't get it.

 

But now that it is in, it actually is an effort to correct it, which given the "we don't have the resources" statements means it might actually stay in. Given that the scope of the "Battle of Stalingrad" has been reduced to only half the battle, the glass is only half full to begin with. I think a little bit of care should be taken to not make it even less full through a number of details.

 

YOu are doing the right thing in a wrong way Constructive criticism is great, but needs to be supported with photographs/evidence. Or do you think devs will start digging up documents just because some "JtD" on the internet said that they were wrong? Also criticism needs to be dry and factual, no emotional/snidey remarks necessary. 

 

Great example is Wotan on the russian forums: he also spotted that 109's speedometer was not the right type. He posted several photos, devs acknowledged and Loft said that speedo WILL be changed. 

 

Wotan:

http://forum.il2sturmovik.su/topic/353-obsuzhdenie-17-j-chasti-dnevnikov-razrabotki/?p=26119

http://forum.il2sturmovik.su/topic/353-obsuzhdenie-17-j-chasti-dnevnikov-razrabotki/?p=26244

 

Loft's answer:

http://forum.il2sturmovik.su/topic/353-obsuzhdenie-17-j-chasti-dnevnikov-razrabotki/?p=26306

 

 

 

 

 

Shadows don't fix wrong gauges or labels, do they? I don't understand why you guys aren't doing it right, I mean there's no extra effort in painting a correct texture instead of a wrong one.

 

No need for this.

[Bearcat]

OK ENOUGH!

 

This thread will not be stickied.. There is already a questions for developers thread. If you have a suggestion just post it but if all you want to do is cry and whine about how much different from CoD anything in this simthatnhasn't even been released yet then do it elsewhere. No on really cares if any of you decide to not by this because of some misplaced gauge ir misspelled word because for every one of you that are silly enough to do that there will be 10 more willing to buy the sim and if it takes off you will too misspelled gauges and all with foot in mouth so just let that nonsense go. If you can't post at least constructive criticism then don't come here at all. We will not refight battlrsnthat have ended already. If you don't like the updates then don't bother reading them.

[DD_bongodriver]

But don't you have to read them to find out if you like them or not?

[falstaff]

Bongodriver said:

 

But don't you have to read them to find out if you like them or not?

 

No (and we get the facetiousness masquerading as logic). The tone and tenor of the updates was established a long time ago. You know roughly what to expect, and they are welcome.

 

The spelling debate is ludicrous...what next, Germanic and Latinate semantic histories and derivations of the word and its roots?

 

Or do I recognise the time-honoured spectacle of certain groups using the forum as a proving ground for earning their 'detail' and 'accuracy' stripes? Will it ruin the game for some people? Who knows. And who cares.

 

It may be a simulator, but it's also a game.

[DD_bongodriver]

 

No (and we get the facetiousness masquerading as logic). The tone and tenor of the updates was established a long time ago. You know roughly what to expect, and they are welcome.

 

 

No masquerades matey.......feel free to explain how exactly one may disseminate the contents of an update without actually reading it though, I'm dying to find out what logic you use.

 

Though a comment like

If you don't like the updates then don't bother reading them

 

is a masquerade for something like 'keep your criticisms to yourself' is it not?

 

all this time I thought the content of an update was key to realising what was developing, turns out that doesn't matter, it's simply a case of frequency......who'da thought....

 

I have nothing to comment on the spelling issue, it's not a debate I raised or have any particular issue with.

 

Or do I recognise the time-honoured spectacle of certain groups using the forum as a proving ground for earning their 'detail' and 'accuracy' stripes? Will it ruin the game for some people? Who knows. And who cares.

 

It may be a simulator, but it's also a game.

 

Who cares?....you seem to, enough to contribute to the time-honoured spectacle.

 

without realism then it is just a game.

[Bearcat]

ENOUGH!!!!

 

LAST FRIGGIN TIME!!!

 

The next person who posts anything in here other than a comment or constructive contribution to the update will be gone for a while. Cut the CRAP!!

 

.. and cut the personal back and forth nonsense as well.. let it go or you will be gone.. Whoever you are.. and wherever you are in the chain on the BS.

[Potenz]

German laguage had a huge reform in spelling, so this could be the case with Wagerecht and Waagerecht.

[Zorin]

ENOUGH!!!!

 

LAST FRIGGIN TIME!!!

 

The next person who posts anything in here other than a comment or constructive contribution to the update will be gone for a while. Cut the CRAP!!

 

.. and cut the personal back and forth nonsense as well.. let it go or you will be gone.. Whoever you are.. and wherever you are in the chain on the BS.

 

Ok, fine with me. We are invited to discuss the development in this thread, which by definition means "to talk about something with another person or a group in order to exchange ideas or decide something".

 

I did just that, decided that it does not contain anything newsworthy for me and shared that opinion with the group. Said group then went on to post rather abusive comments about my opinion being not welcome. That was the point when you should have taken action, telling them to respect other members, yet you remained silent only to end up shouting in a foulmouthed way that everyone shall do what you say, now.

 

I might be wrong and am certain to recieve your endearingly phrased farewell, but you may want to consider your moderating skills if you fail to moderate a discussion and seeing it end like this.

 

 

@all: Respect eachother, your opinions and motives and try to get along without personal insults and other forms of decrying those of different believes.

[CrazySchmidt]

[Bearcat]

Ok, fine with me. We are invited to discuss the development in this thread, which by definition means "to talk about something with another person or a group in order to exchange ideas or decide something".

 

I did just that, decided that it does not contain anything newsworthy for me and shared that opinion with the group. Said group then went on to post rather abusive comments about my opinion being not welcome. That was the point when you should have taken action, telling them to respect other members, yet you remained silent only to end up shouting in a foulmouthed way that everyone shall do what you say, now.

 

I might be wrong and am certain to recieve your endearingly phrased farewell, but you may want to consider your moderating skills if you fail to moderate a discussion and seeing it end like this.

 

 

@all: Respect eachother, your opinions and motives and try to get along without personal insults and other forms of decrying those of different believes.

What you think that was directed solely at you?

 

 

 

and cut the personal back and forth nonsense as well.. let it go or you will be gone.. Whoever you are.. and wherever you are in the chain on the BS.

 

Loose the martyr bit.. I came to the thread when I got here .. and I believe I did try to moderate the thread moderately ... twice before the post you quoted... and that to no avail hence the last post. Z if you want to get your shorts in a knot be my guest just don't do it here.. I didn't mention anyone by name but everyone who has had a hand in twisting this thread knows who they are.. in fact anyone who can read knows who they are and that applies to them.. as well as you. Frankly your contribution to the schmutz in the thread was rather minimal.. I don't know what side of the bed you got up on this morning or what you are used to and I don't care.. I am an equal opportunity enforcer of order here and I have no favorites and no enemies.. I just want to see this place move smoothly.. and niether you nor any of the other players in this thread will change that. I don't like to wave my stick around or swing it .. but I will when it is necessary.. and if this thread goes further south that time  will be at hand.. so to everyone who contributed to this needs to back up.. and think before they post because the next post that continues in the same direction will be one with consequences attached to it.. and again.. that applies to ANYONE.. and YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE.

[Ala13_Kike]

About the purpose of this post, only I can say "good job". I think that your work go very fast, and the pictures that we have are excellent.

On Dec2012 I was read your declaration about 1C & 777 Studios relations, and 6 month after we have videos, cockpit & aircraft pictures, tank pictures, some terrain pictures (inside the a/c pictures)...etc....

 

Again, good job and thanks for updates and news

[ISIDA]

We are grateful for any help in creating our project.

[Pudfark]

I've been lurking about for the last few months, coming by occasionally for a quick read.

I just read this whole thread and now I know why Henry Ford painted all his cars black when

he first got in the business.  @ the Dev's, you know what you're doing and what not to do, that's the

faith folks here, should have in all of you.  I do, others as well.  

 

@Bearcat,  Stay Ford Tough 

[=69.GIAP=YSTREB]

CloD set very high standars, which are dificult to be met and surpassed... Jason dificult task I see ahead of you team...push harder... Just do it...

 

so true

[Hunty]

Great update team much appreciated and i respect all of your efforts. And i know you will give us a great ww2 sim just like you gave us a great ww1 sim. Rise of flight has been an amazing sim been there since day1 and proud to be a part of it great atmosphere and great community thank you 777 team salute.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Hunty

[BlackSix]

Two new screenshots with some corrections for the instrument board:

 

[p00d73]

Wow! Thanks for the update BlackSix.

The reflections and depth in the second picture look amazing.

[Felix58]

Thanks for taking the time to provide an update.  I'm pretty sure most of us could fly by the instruments at that quality.  And it is a WIP.  So very encouraging.