The High-End Battle Royale Pedal Shootout

[Sokol1]

Another Jay good article.

 

https://jaytheskepticalengineer.com/fathering-and-hobbies/flight-simming/flight-sim-gear-reviews/an-engineers-look-at-high-end-flight-sim-pedals-and-the-slaw-rx-viper-version-2s/

[messsucher]

Very good reading, loved it. The best gadget review ever. Big plus of talking a lot about unconventional solution of replacing rudder with joystick. However, would like to comment one thing. He said there is two reason to use rudder pedals:

 

1 – You want to decouple the yaw axis but not to the twist axis of your stick or your left hand.

2 – You want rudder pedals simply to mimic the cockpit of real world planes.

 

There is a third reason too, and that is if you want to use your legs, which would otherwise be unused.

[Aurelius_IL2]

Howdy IL2 fans, ... this is my very first post here at the IL2 Forums but several of you may know me already. I am an engineer and real life pilot, and fly in IL2 BOS as Aurelius. I have been fortunate to win some tournaments in the past and usually do a few technology reviews every year. After a suggestion from a friend in another forum, I thought my Slaw RX Viper Version 2 Review and High-End Pedal Shootout article might be helpful to potential fliers:

 

https://jaytheskepticalengineer.com/fathering-and-hobbies/flight-simming/flight-sim-gear-reviews/an-engineers-look-at-high-end-flight-sim-pedals-and-the-slaw-rx-viper-version-2s/

 

The review takes a look at high-end pedals and compares them. I hope it is informative and helpful! Best!

Edited October 10, 2020 by Aurelius_IL2

[TWC_Ace]

Aurelius, this is very deep and informative article about pedals. Ive owned Saiteks, Simped Vario USB pro (discontinued), VKB pedals, used CHs for a while, and now Im using MFG Crosswinds. Varios, VKBs and MFGs are much better but I preffer MFG as they are simply the best out of the three (plastic Saiteks and CHs arent match in any way). I didnt try Vipers or TPRs (too expensive for me) but I can, even now, say with complete certainty that MFGs are best buy solution. For around 420$ your getting fully adjustable, very precise and durable set of pedals.

But, it is very interesting to read about high end (more expensive) stuff in your article/review. Good job!

Edited October 6, 2020 by =VARP=Tvrdi

[Aurelius_IL2]

Thank you Tvrdi. Nothing wrong with the MFG Crosswinds. They provide 95% of what the RX Vipers can give you but at $200 less. I still have my Crosswinds in the closet as a back up

Edited October 6, 2020 by Aurelius_IL2

[messsucher]

I enjoyed a lot of your article, was the best gadgets review ever. Your speculations about the purpose of pedals and unconventional ways to use rudder was especially interesting. However, you listed two reasons to use pedals.

 

1 – You want to decouple the yaw axis but not to the twist axis of your stick or your left hand.

2 – You want rudder pedals simply to mimic the cockpit of real world planes.

 

There is a third reason too, and that is if you want to use your legs, which would otherwise be unused.

 

Ordered myself VKB mark IV pedals before reading your article, but that was because they were the first I thought good enough pedals listed to be in stock. Very relieved to read VKBs are almost there with the Vipers and Crosswinds. Since I have not flew myself I am not missing the immersion Vipers and Crosswinds can give, hence thinking I am good with VKBs, only missing the brakes, which in VR though is bad.

Edited October 6, 2020 by messsucher

[E69_Qpassa_VR]

I read what were you could say comparing with the crosswind and well, after all they are top quality, I have them for over a year and I would buy them again 

[TWC_Ace]

1 hour ago, messsucher said:

I enjoyed a lot of your article, was the best gadgets review ever. Your speculations about the purpose of pedals and unconventional ways to use rudder was especially interesting. However, you listed two reasons to use pedals.

 

1 – You want to decouple the yaw axis but not to the twist axis of your stick or your left hand.

2 – You want rudder pedals simply to mimic the cockpit of real world planes.

 

There is a third reason too, and that is if you want to use your legs, which would otherwise be unused.

 

Ordered myself VKB mark IV pedals before reading your article, but that was because they were the first I thought good enough pedals listed to be in stock. Very relieved to read VKBs are almost there with the Vipers and Crosswinds. Since I have not flew myself I am not missing the immersion Vipers and Crosswinds can give, hence thinking I am good with VKBs, only missing the brakes, which in VR though is bad.

Pedals are giving much more precision for rudder compared to twist not to mention much easier aiming, specialy for ground strafing.

VKBs are very precise, no doubt about that, but I found the "heli system" with pushing pedals up and down a bit ackward and TBH they are considerably noisy (not a problem for most ppl).

[messsucher]

14 minutes ago, =VARP=Tvrdi said:

Pedals are giving much more precision for rudder compared to twist not to mention much easier aiming, specialy for ground strafing.

VKBs are very precise, no doubt about that, but I found the "heli system" with pushing pedals up and down a bit ackward and TBH they are considerably noisy (not a problem for most ppl).

 

Oh crap, I know for sure I don't like them if they are noisy. Breaks immersion, distracting noises.

[grcurmudgeon]

How are you mapping dual sticks? Is the second stick throttle and rudder on the XY, or how are the throttle and rudder mapped?

[Sokol1]

5 hours ago, messsucher said:

 

Oh crap, I know for sure I don't like them if they are noisy. Breaks immersion, distracting noises.

 

Is not that too loud, happens that center spring, very strong because need be short, make a "kiiiik, kiiiik" sound when stretching and shrinking, because the anchor point in follower have straight faces, and as the spring hook is round, are friction.

 

I did a "tuning" in my T-Rudder Mk.II (an early version) that solve this noise, and so far it has lasted 4 years.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEzE1sZaq-E

 

BTW - For il2:GB you don't need (VKB) T-Link software for differential brakes emulation, since any plane in this series support differential brakes, regardless how are IRL, so no "brakes drama". ?

 

[cardboard_killer]

8 minutes ago, Sokol1 said:

Is not that too loud, happens that center spring, very strong because need be short, make a "kiiiik, kiiiik" sound when stretching and shrinking, because the anchor point in follower have straight faces, and as the spring hook is round, are friction.

 

Imagine some silicon or carbon lube would silence that problem.

[Sokol1]

4 hours ago, grcurmudgeon said:

How are you mapping dual sticks? Is the second stick throttle and rudder on the XY, or how are the throttle and rudder mapped?

 

Dual sticks is good for space games, e.g. Elite Dangerous due their "fly" in 6DOF, so the left stick control side strafe and throttle, that in this games have a center position, because in space you can fly backwards.

This setup was nickname of HOSAS - Hands On Stick and Stick (a jock with  HOTAS).

Edited October 6, 2020 by Sokol1

[messsucher]

1 hour ago, Sokol1 said:

 

Is not that too loud, happens that center spring, very strong because need be short, make a "kiiiik, kiiiik" sound when stretching and shrinking, because the anchor point in follower have straight faces, and as the spring hook is round, are friction.

 

I did a "tuning" in my T-Rudder Mk.II (an early version) that solve this noise, and so far it has lasted 4 years.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEzE1sZaq-E

 

BTW - For il2:GB you don't need (VKB) T-Link software for differential brakes emulation, since any plane in this series support differential brakes, regardless how are IRL, so no "brakes drama". ?

 

 

Alright, nice, cool, and thanks! The issue can be worked on. That braking thing is good too, only one more button needed to be bind. Maybe some day can fly them twin engines!

[messsucher]

Got the VKB Mark IV pedals and have to say I am very positively surprised of their build and quality. As an engineer myself I admire the minimalist yet very purposeful and functional design. There is a noise issue, a clang in the center position, but it is much less than I thought. I think it wont be disturbing. Haven't yet tried the pedals but so far very solid 5 stars.

[Gambit21]

I’ve always used a twist stick and done very well. I’m not spending $400 on pedals.

 

The dual stick idea is interesting.

[messsucher]

I have always used twist stick too, to keep things "simple", but now after this first flight with VKB I can only say should had done long ago what was told by my betters and bought pedals ?

 

The difference is just that big. No more fighting against the ball, but living with the ball. Bf 109 sideslip is nothing anymore. The ball is awesome feature in WW2 flight sims, it makes flying harder, yet it is a real feature. Nobody has made it to makes things harder and more interesting.

 

I think Vipers and Crosswinds might have a very nice feature in that they might be responsive in a way that you would get an idea of the position of your rudder by just the force your feet is doing to the pedal. VKBs are kinda unresponsive, your really can't have a good feeling of their position, except in the center position. But the precision and easiness in using them is still awesome.

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

49 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

I’ve always used a twist stick and done very well. I’m not spending $400 on pedals.

 

The dual stick idea is interesting.

 

I like twist sticks for the convenience. It's more comfortable because you don't have to sit in a particular position above pedals.

 

However, I did see a small improvement in aiming when switching to pedals. The much longer throw allows greater precision. Arguably more importantly, ditching the twist axis makes it easier to separate yaw inputs from pitch and roll. Being able to taxi hands-free is also helpful if other things require attention.

 

I haven't tried the dual stick idea, but I think it would be disadvantageous in any aircraft where hands are needed to manipulate complex engine controls or avionics. It also feels slightly odd to control a single axis with a stick that has two degrees of freedom.

[dburne]

4 hours ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

 

I like twist sticks for the convenience. It's more comfortable because you don't have to sit in a particular position above pedals.

 

However, I did see a small improvement in aiming when switching to pedals. The much longer throw allows greater precision. Arguably more importantly, ditching the twist axis makes it easier to separate yaw inputs from pitch and roll. Being able to taxi hands-free is also helpful if other things require attention.

 

I haven't tried the dual stick idea, but I think it would be disadvantageous in any aircraft where hands are needed to manipulate complex engine controls or avionics. It also feels slightly odd to control a single axis with a stick that has two degrees of freedom.

 

When I ordered my Gunfighter Mk III Pro L with MCG Pro grip early this year,  I did not elect for the twist grip option as I did not think there was ever something I would use. Now that I am doing a little space combat kind of wishing I had. Pedals still working fine for that, but I could see advantage of twist stick for those.

Edited October 7, 2020 by dburne

[messsucher]

8 hours ago, dburne said:

 

When I ordered my Gunfighter Mk III Pro L with MCG Pro grip early this year,  I did not elect for the twist grip option as I did not think there was ever something I would use. Now that I am doing a little space combat kind of wishing I had. Pedals still working fine for that, but I could see advantage of twist stick for those.

 

Twist is awesome in space, but guess dual sticks are better since serious people use them.

[Marvel]

On 10/6/2020 at 11:48 AM, Aurelius_IL2 said:

Howdy IL2 fans, ... this is my first post but several of you may know me already. I am an engineer and real life pilot, and fly in IL2 BOS as Aurelius. I have been fortunate to win some tournaments in the past and usually do a few technology reviews every year. After a suggestion from a friend in another forum, I thought my Slaw RX Viper Version 2 Review and High-End Pedal Shootout article might be helpful to potential fliers:

 

https://jaytheskepticalengineer.com/fathering-and-hobbies/flight-simming/flight-sim-gear-reviews/an-engineers-look-at-high-end-flight-sim-pedals-and-the-slaw-rx-viper-version-2s/

 

The review takes a look at high-end pedals and compares them. I hope it is informative and helpful! Best!

 

Very interesting and very useful article !! Congrats and thanks for sharing us your experience!

 

Ciao!

 

M

[RedRider]

I have the Viper V1's, great pedals. I don't really see what changed with the V2's, but the V1's were certainly worth the money in my mind. No plastic anywhere!

[SharpeXB]

On 10/1/2020 at 4:13 PM, messsucher said:

 

1 – You want to decouple the yaw axis but not to the twist axis of your stick or your left hand.

2 – You want rudder pedals simply to mimic the cockpit of real world planes.

3 - You get brakes. I think this feature is overlooked by Arcade flying game players who never handle their aircraft on the ground ?

and of course pedals are just more accurate than twisting a stick

 

What I don’t really understand is this enthusiasm for over-engineering PC rudder pedals. Yes it’s great if they are robust enough to use your feet on them and quality sensors are good etc. but all these high-end pedals seem ridiculous to me. I would really spend money on any other piece of sim hardware than pedals. In modern aircraft with auto rudder FBW etc they aren’t even really used except on take off and landing ground handling etc. In WWII here they’re certainly useful.

I’ve had a $99 set of CH pedals which I can see haven’t changed in 20 years and after 10 years of hard use they still work perfectly. I’ll probably never replace them. 

[messsucher]

12 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

3 - You get brakes. I think this feature is overlooked by Arcade flying game players who never handle their aircraft on the ground ?

and of course pedals are just more accurate than twisting a stick

 

What I don’t really understand is this enthusiasm for over-engineering PC rudder pedals. Yes it’s great if they are robust enough to use your feet on them and quality sensors are good etc. but all these high-end pedals seem ridiculous to me. I would really spend money on any other piece of sim hardware than pedals. In modern aircraft with auto rudder FBW etc they aren’t even really used except on take off and landing ground handling etc. In WWII here they’re certainly useful.

I’ve had a $99 set of CH pedals which I can see haven’t changed in 20 years and after 10 years of hard use they still work perfectly. I’ll probably never replace them. 

 

Brakes on pedals would had been very nice, and that's why I thought CH pedals for a long while, almost bought them, but chose to get VKBs in the end. The reason for that was that I could use twist on stick for wheel brakes or do it like they say British and Russian planes often do, that is have a lever you push and then rudder pedals work as wheel brakes. The first time I tried to  to configure brakes to twist it did not work however.

 

If you practice enough you can tap keyboard for wheel brakes. It will never be fun, but you can taxi good enough with it.

 

So in the end there are alternative solutions for toe brakes, some bad and some even historical.

 

I think those high end pedals are not bad to purchase because they should last a long time, and you could get good money of them if you chose to sell them. Also if you are poor you really can't afford low quality pedals. You break one and then buy a new bad one, which mean you could have bought better pedals in the first place, and enjoy them, instead of having only bad crap and troubles.

 

Good high quality equipment is pleasure to use and own, but in flight sims high end equipment can also make a small difference in how you can fly. So in the end there are very good reasons to buy high end gear, especially if you are environmentally conscious since at least you ain't gonna produce much waste with them.

[SharpeXB]

28 minutes ago, messsucher said:

 

Brakes on pedals would had been very nice, 

You can look at it this way too. You’ve got extra axis controls that you can use with your feet. Actually what I do in this and DCS is map the zoom view axis to one of the toe brakes and just a mono brake on the other. That’s really useful being able to zoom view hands free. I use HOTAS buttons for differential brakes because although it’s a bit awkward, taxiing is only so important and less so in a combat sim.  In the modern DCS aircraft you need every HOTAS button for real commands but modern tricycle gear planes don’t really need R and L brakes in a PC sim. 
In X-Plane and MSFS where I want to make it as real as possible I use the pedal toe brakes since dynamically zoom viewing everything isn’t as critical. 
So yeah, pedals just mean having more controls really, use them any way you like. Hey I use the pedals to steer vehicles in FPS games instead of trying to drive with WASD keys. 

[Sokol1]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

3 - You get brakes. I think this feature is overlooked by Arcade flying game players who never handle their aircraft on the ground ?

 

Subjetive, for me brakes is the last consideration about rudder pedals. Is a must to have, yes, but secondary.

 

So I use VKB T-Rudder pedals (high quality features in moderated price), that don't have any brakes, and I can taxi planes in il-2:GB, CloD, DCS Warbirds without issue.

 

Last but not least, brakes on pedals is not a universal brake control solution for all planes modeled in those games, many planes (il-2, Spit, MiG-15/19/21...) don't have brakes on pedals.

 

The first time I tried to  to configure brakes to twist it did not work however.

 

Wheel brakes on twist axis is easy to set with DView, Joystick Gremlin, or for VKB sticks with their DevCfg.

 

 

 

[RedRider]

In a fierce dogfight, the amount of force I place on my pedals is pretty nuts. No creaking, no noise, it just takes it. If you don't have a good HOTAS, obviously nice pedals come later -- but I don't regret spending the money at all. I once had saitek pro combat pedals -- not even close to the viper rx's.

[dburne]

Well I personally love my Crosswinds.

For planes that use levers like the Spit, I use the paddle on on my Gunfighter.

For planes that use wheel brakes like the P-51, I use the toe brakes on my pedals.

Win/win.

 

If I should happen to find myself desiring new pedals someday, I would only get them if they had toe brakes.

Edited October 9, 2020 by dburne

[SharpeXB]

The reviewer says he can’t tell the difference between a BMW and a Honda. 

ok... ?

I hope $700 rudder pedals are more like the former. 

Edited October 10, 2020 by SharpeXB

[Aurelius_IL2]

Sharpe that is not correct. I said I can only tell a 5 to 10% improvement with respect to the overall handling and features of a BMW vs a Honda Accord from 15 years ago. The BMW was better but by a very small margin, especially considering that it cost 3.5 times as much.

 

And the Slaw pedals are not like BMWs, .... they are more like Lamborghinis. 

 

4 hours ago, RedRider said:

In a fierce dogfight, the amount of force I place on my pedals is pretty nuts. No creaking, no noise, it just takes it. If you don't have a good HOTAS, obviously nice pedals come later -- but I don't regret spending the money at all. I once had saitek pro combat pedals -- not even close to the viper rx's.

 

It is for this reason that I decided to extensively use all the pedals in Elite Dangerous and Rise of Flight. A Tomcat vs Flanker fight in DCS does not tax your pedals much but try a top opponent in the Sopwith Camel. You will yaw the pedals right into the sheet rock That is why I said the Thrustmaster TPR's are fine for MSFS 2020 but not so hot in Rise of Flight. Once the Slaw Vipers are stably bolted down, you can apply very high force loads in a tight fight with no problems. That is part of the reason the Slaws were superior overall.

On 10/8/2020 at 1:40 AM, Marvel said:

 

Very interesting and very useful article !! Congrats and thanks for sharing us your experience!

 

Ciao!

 

M

 

Thank you for the kind words. Any review is going to have some element of subjectivity to it, but I am reasonably confident that if I disseminated all the high-end pedal sets to 1000 random and serious flight simmers, with several months to test all the sets out and compare, that the majority would find the same results as I did. 

Edited October 10, 2020 by Aurelius_IL2

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Aurelius_IL2 said:

The BMW was better but by a very small margin, especially considering that it cost 3.5 times as much.

If that’s the cost difference then you aren’t comparing comparable models. Veering off topic...  One of those cars would prove its value at top speed on the Autobahn and one of them wouldn’t. 

1 hour ago, Aurelius_IL2 said:

Once the Slaw Vipers are stably bolted down, you can apply very high force loads in a tight fight with no problems.

Why are you guys putting so much force on your controls? Yeah I flew the Camel a lot in RoF and never put my foot through the floor. Play games with your thumbs not your whole body. Flight sim controls generally aren’t force feedback and no pedals are. Even the sticks are only giving you a tiny force. What? Are these pedals designed for 800lb gorillas? You have to admit some of these are serious over-engineering. I can think of many better uses for $700 in gaming gear. 

 

Now racing sim gear can have some really decent and realistic force on them. And strong pedals in those would be worthwhile. But those people have them bolted to frames. Flight sims don’t have forces like that in game. 

Edited October 10, 2020 by SharpeXB

[LLv34_Flanker]

S! 

 

I am using MFG Crosswind pedals and they are spot on for my use vs price range. I wanted the Slaw FW190 pedals, but got no response for whatever reason, so went MFG. 

 

@Aurelius_IL2 Do you feel the dampener would further improve Crosswinds? I do not mean that top quality thing on your excellent article, but a simpler one.

 

@SharpeXB I am wondering too why people excert so much force on controllers while it has zero effect. I would understand it if in a real plane where controls do have forces to over come. At least from my experience with F/A-18C.

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

You have to admit some of these are serious over-engineering. I can think of many better uses for $700 in gaming gear. 

 

I bet that many people looking for rudder pedals are already heavily equipped with other high-end controllers and PC hardware, so the $700 might not be useful elsewhere.

 

Most high-end gaming and simulation gear can be described as "over-engineered" to some extent, so pedals aren't really unique in that respect. I know that some people on this forum consider things like the CH Fighterstick wholly inadequate. The top sticks and throttles are considerably stronger and more precise than the minimum required for typical use.

 

4 minutes ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

I am wondering too why people excert so much force on controllers while it has zero effect. I would understand it if in a real plane where controls do have forces to over come.

 

I imagine it could involve slamming into the travel limit due to inertia or slow physiological reaction when performing inputs as quickly as possible. Plus, excitement can do strange things in a fight. That said, I've never really experienced this problem.

Edited October 10, 2020 by Mitthrawnuruodo

[LLv34_Flanker]

S! 

 

I bought high end controllers simply because they offer things Mitthrawn described: precision, durability, ergonomics etc. And I do not plan to buy stuff every year, but more like long term investments. 

 

 

[Aurelius_IL2]

Sharpe - It is not so much that huge forces are needed but that very rapid changes in direction of force are needed. A perfect example would be in Rise of Flight where you come down behind a German and prepare to open up only to see another German plane come in behind you from 200 feet above and behind you. In this type of situation, I often apply a very sudden slip (say, roll to the left slightly while applying rapid full right rudder) allowing the guy behind me to often slide right buy and then I fire on both of them. For this maneuver to work you need quality pedals which display rigidity and lack of slop. A veteran to grandmaster level pilot (not that I am one) should almost never be slamming the pedals to the detent as that usually indicates poor control. There are only a few ACM situations where that is needed.

 

Flanker - Yes, undoubtedly the damper will be helpful on the Crosswinds but you need to play with the rebound adjustment to dial in the best response curve. Also, the Slaw Vipers, Crosswinds and T-Rudder Mark IV's are all quality rudder sets that will last for years. Unless you are purposely abusing them, they will not likely fail you for several years or more.

[messsucher]

6 hours ago, Aurelius_IL2 said:

Once the Slaw Vipers are stably bolted down, you can apply very high force loads in a tight fight with no problems

 

This is why I like VKBs, you don't have to bolt them down. They stay right where they are and do not move an inch. I begin to think that VKBs are the best overall for me.

 

*

 

Very good critical discussion about pedals here.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S! 

 

@Aurelius_IL2 Thanks for info, much appreciated. Now just have to find a proper mod kit to install a damper. I guess Milan has not released one yet.

 

Prior Crosswind pedals I have used TM pedals, CH ProPedals etc. There is no going back to them anymore after using these. I get a natural position for my feet, like to fly with some toe out etc. And the Baur stick has room to move. 

 

I find this discussion helpful as it can give pointers for players who are either planning pedal upgrades or just getting into them. Lot of information and user experience! 

[SharpeXB]

5 hours ago, Aurelius_IL2 said:

Sharpe - It is not so much that huge forces are needed but that very rapid changes in direction of force are needed.

Sure but one thing I’ve learned from racing sims is even hard inputs to your controls should be done smoothly. You never slam an input. Especially with a plane like the Camel. You can also only slam the controls in a flight sim because there’s no force on them. In reality such a quick input would be impossible. 
For all the high level engineering of these flight sim controls I wish somebody made these as well as even the cheaper racing controls are done. Those are fantastic in their feedback and precision input is even more important there. In flight, even doing something like combat or air to air refueling, I’m only touching the stick or pedals. It’s less fatiguing too. I have a cockpit design where I could bolt these down if I wanted to and for now have just decided against it because I don’t handle them like that. 

[SharpeXB]

Perhaps what we can hope for with high quality flight controllers is that this genre moves out of niche status. Amazingly right now the #4 selling PC game is a flight simulator! It’s actually causing a shortage and price hike for flight controllers. That demand might generate all sorts of quality and innovation.

[Marvel]

On 10/10/2020 at 5:22 AM, Aurelius_IL2 said:

Thank you for the kind words. Any review is going to have some element of subjectivity to it, but I am reasonably confident that if I disseminated all the high-end pedal sets to 1000 random and serious flight simmers, with several months to test all the sets out and compare, that the majority would find the same results as I did. 

 

I am agree with you mate. Me in the meantime I am working on my own rudder pedals rig. I have taken various solutions from the internet and am trying to make my own pedal board. This also provides for the vertical adjustment of the pedals

I hope to finish it without taking a lifetime.....?

 

Ciao!

 

M

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2020 by Marvel