Career Wingmen Skill Settings

[=IRFC=SmokinHole]

I've noticed a trend when flying a Bodenplatte Career.  With a difficulty set at "Hard" it seems that the enemy AI are reasonably skilled but the allied AI are pretty inept.  Whether I fly Spits or 109s my wingmen typically all get shot down with few (if any) kills and I personally either do OK or run if I can.  The screenshot is typical of this.  (My six kills is not typical.  Normally I get one or two and spend the rest of the mission trying to sneak out of the party with no one noticing--if I survive at all.)

 

Hard would still be "hard", and from my perspective even MORE enjoyable, if the skill-levels for the two sides were roughly matched.

 

Correction:  I just checked the _gen mission in the editor and both teams were give skills ranging from Normal to Ace.  The reason for the poor results on my side is that "Hard" tends to make us outnumbered and AI do even worse than I do in a 2v1 situation.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by SmokinHole

[Ram399]

You're partly right in the sense that the difficulty setting does affects the skill of enemy aircraft encountered as well as that of friendly AI.
As well as the number of enemies encountered and just the difficulty of a given mission overall, as might be expected.

The catch is that its only the skill level of friendly AI flights that spawn independent of your own flight on the map that are affected by the difficulty setting- so in the case of the Germans the units known as Swift flight.
As such if you have the difficulty set to easy the AI swift flights will generally be crewed by veteran profiles while the enemies will be rookies or average and the result will be a turkey shoot, conversely if you have it set to hard then the enemy will be veteran to ace while Swift will be rookie to average and the turkey shoot will go the other way.

To this effect I've found that moderate is a fairly even balance in terms of enemy and friendly AI skill as well as the numbers encountered.

For pilots within your own unit however, the skill level of their AI is based off of a given pilot's rank and experience with no regard to the difficulty setting- so experienced Hauptmann and Oberleutnants are generally more competent all around.

With enough dedication (way too much to be honest), its possible to shelter your AI pilots up to the ace level so that you actually get some semi-reliable wingmen.
Here's some screenshots of a unit I've spent the last year trying to build up along with some nice end results:
 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by Ram399

[JG27_Steini]

It is not only AI pilots are worse then enemy AI, last mission i lost 3 AI by crashing in the hills of kuban in a 6 vs 2 fight. It is ridiculous. 

[oc2209]

5 hours ago, SmokinHole said:

I've noticed a trend when flying a Bodenplatte Career.  With a difficulty set at "Hard" it seems that the enemy AI are reasonably skilled but the allied AI are pretty inept.

 

I agree with this observation. But there are exceptions (maybe).

 

In my longest career (109, Moscow>Stalingrad>Kuban>Boden), I felt my wingmen were useless. In my (much shorter) Russian career, they felt about the same in MiGs. I suspect their longevity would increase quite a lot in Yaks or La-5FNs, but I haven't tested thoroughly.

 

Just today, I flew my first ever Fw-190D career sortie (an intercept), and of a flight of 8, I had no losses! Shocking, I know. And it was a very long sortie, against P-47s and Spit IXs. Typically, the longer the sortie lasts, the more likely your entire flight will die (including by dimwitted accidents). While I shouldn't assume too much from just one sortie, it might be that the AI handles the 190D better than other German planes (as a friendly AI, at least).

 

3 hours ago, Ram399 said:

For pilots within your own unit however, the skill level of their AI is based off of a given pilot's rank and experience with no regard to the difficulty setting- so experienced Hauptmann and Oberleutnants are generally more competent all around.

With enough dedication (way too much to be honest), its possible to shelter your AI pilots up to the ace level so that you actually get some semi-reliable wingmen.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Yeah, I've tried to build up my AI wingmen's experience in the relatively safe AI-only sorties (the ones you choose not to fly, if you're a commander). And in my experience, they're still useless. Granted, I didn't give them nearly as much XP as you have.

 

Part of the problem here, evidently, is how slowly the game ups your wingmen's quality level. I would argue that any pilot who survives 25 sorties is no longer a rookie. And for the sake of simplicity (I'm not saying real life applies here), 50 should be considered veteran, and maybe 100 ace. 

 

This topic reminds me of a wishlist I mentioned before, where I'd like it if AI (on both sides) were randomly given 'innate talent' stats as well as experience stats. So, for example, 90% would be average talent, but the rest would be exceptional, and fly at one level above their experience level. So they'd never fly like a rookie, and at ace level of XP, they'd be better than average pilots with the same XP. Marginally better, not ridiculously so.

 

This kind of extra stat layer would allow you to really nurture those 'special' AI pilots, and it'd make their losses more keenly felt. And likewise, it'd be more satisfying shooting down enemy 'super-aces.'

 

(the following was supposed to be in a separate post, but was auto-merged):

 

Here, this is my best-worst day:

 

 

That casualty rate is simply unacceptable. Even 'hard' difficulty shouldn't be that severe to your wingmen's chances. An average of 1 death per flight of 6 planes, per sortie, would still be catastrophic in the real world. But 4 deaths, 3 wounded, in 2 sorties?

 

Granted, these numbers are higher than average, because I think the Sturmoviks had rear gunners (they don't always) in the ground attack intercept. I wager most of these dead and wounded were from the overly-precise AI defensive gunnery.

Edited September 2, 2020 by oc2209
Accidental merging of two posts.

[Ram399]

25 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

That casualty rate is simply unacceptable.

Without providing deliberate shelter for your AI wingmen they are liable to get themselves killed no matter the circumstances- and even then theres still the likely chance they'll decide to just dive into the ground for no reason, and if theres IL-2s with tailgunner snipers its game over as one of my 40 kill pilots recently found out.

I've been playing my current campaign with the intention of protecting my AI wingmen at all costs, and have actually kept track of every casualty my unit has sustained from Moscow up to Kuban.  Of the total 51 pilots I've lost, 21 can be attributed to the call of the void (diving headlong into the ground), 8 to AI gunner fire, 20 to hostile fighters, and 2 who died on missions which I was not involved in.

The AI has always been a work in progress and I remain optimistic, though it can be trying at times.

As is in my current game, the only pilots I really feel comfortable quasi-relying on are the top two, and even then I've spent so much time getting them to where they are from Day 1 of Moscow to our current date in Kuban that I spend most of my time in any engagement keeping an eye on their six and hoping they don't do anything stupid.

It certainly doesn't help that in the most recent build of the game AI squadronmates have become infuriatingly unwilling to engage enemy aircraft even when they're right in front of them or in some cases even trying to kill them.

I just had a free hunt like five minutes ago where we encountered a flight of 6 P-39s and my 3 wingmen- one of which was a 30 kill "ace", did nothing but circle overhead as I kited the P-39s around issuing attack orders to no avail, and then one of the new transfer Feldwebels dove into the ground to add insult to injury I guess.

Even if they do get on an enemy fighter's six and decide to actually shoot at it, they are incapable of adjusting for even the slightest deflection though so there's that as well.
I am admittedly a bit frustrated lol.

[oc2209]

5 minutes ago, Ram399 said:

I just had a free hunt like five minutes ago where we encountered a flight of 6 P-39s and my 3 wingmen- one of which was a 30 kill "ace", did nothing but circle overhead as I kited the P-39s around issuing attack orders to no avail, and then one of the new transfer Feldwebels dove into the ground to add insult to injury I guess.

Even if they do get on an enemy fighter's six and decide to actually shoot at it, they are incapable of adjusting for even the slightest deflection though so there's that as well.
I am admittedly a bit frustrated lol.

'Call of the void' is a poetic way of saying abject stupidity, ha ha.

 

Yeah, the deflection issue is pretty severe. I see the AI shooting at turning targets, but never effectively. The fire always is behind the target, if the turn is anything tighter than a lazy bank.

 

I've gotten over my frustration by viewing my wingmen as a sociopath would; which is to say, they serve as good distractions until they die.

[=IRFC=SmokinHole]

The Career (I suppose) is the core of the product.  I mean, if this were a circa mid-90's combat sim then the Career would be both the game and the story.  In IL2 it seems to be something of a hidden gem.  Maybe I've been living under a rock but I feel that it isn't marketed with a great source of pride.  AI incompetence aside (and anyway AI is better now than it was a few years ago--so the trend is favorable), there is much within the Career that a casual player like me has been missing.  For instance, as I've never held a leadership position within the Career, I had no idea that the player could nurture a higher skill level within his team.  I've only learned that now from Ram399's post above.  Thanks!  Nor did I know that a single career could survive through multiple maps.  (Thanks oc2209!).  There is so much to like about BoX--the Career in particular--and these things can get lost in the minds off less attentive players as attention switches to the anticipation of every new shiny plane and map.

[dburne]

8 hours ago, SmokinHole said:

The Career (I suppose) is the core of the product.  I mean, if this were a circa mid-90's combat sim then the Career would be both the game and the story.  In IL2 it seems to be something of a hidden gem.  Maybe I've been living under a rock but I feel that it isn't marketed with a great source of pride.  AI incompetence aside (and anyway AI is better now than it was a few years ago--so the trend is favorable), there is much within the Career that a casual player like me has been missing.  For instance, as I've never held a leadership position within the Career, I had no idea that the player could nurture a higher skill level within his team.  I've only learned that now from Ram399's post above.  Thanks!  Nor did I know that a single career could survive through multiple maps.  (Thanks oc2209!).  There is so much to like about BoX--the Career in particular--and these things can get lost in the minds off less attentive players as attention switches to the anticipation of every new shiny plane and map.

 

Yeah Career Mode is fantastic. They obviously put a lot of work into it.

Between the scripted campaigns, Career Mode, and PWCG  this game really shines in single player action.

Single Player is all I do, and I do a lot of hours of it pretty much each week and love it.

[Feathered_IV]

So is there no effective way to view the current skill level of your AI pilots in the career UI?  

[Ram399]

2 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

So is there no effective way to view the current skill level of your AI pilots in the career UI?  

If I'm not mistaken there is a way to go in and check within the career files but no way to see in the game itself.
Generally the in game ranks are a good indication though, as theres five ranks which correspond pretty well to five possible skill settings.

[oc2209]

5 hours ago, dburne said:

 

Yeah Career Mode is fantastic. They obviously put a lot of work into it.

Between the scripted campaigns, Career Mode, and PWCG  this game really shines in single player action.

Single Player is all I do, and I do a lot of hours of it pretty much each week and love it.

 

The newspapers are one of my favorite career features. The articles are quite informative, even for WWII buffs.

 

14 hours ago, SmokinHole said:

  Nor did I know that a single career could survive through multiple maps.  (Thanks oc2209!). 

 

Not to be a Debbie Downer, but I want to mention: keeping the same pilot through different maps can result in career save errors. I've had a few. But don't despair if you get one; it's not a death sentence for your pilot. With something called a database editor app, you can easily bypass said errors. There's a thread dedicated to it on this forum, if you ever need the particulars.

Edited September 3, 2020 by oc2209

[PatrickAWlson]

On 9/2/2020 at 2:27 AM, oc2209 said:

I've gotten over my frustration by viewing my wingmen as a sociopath would; which is to say, they serve as good distractions until they die.

 

That is pretty much the way real pilots handled it.  Too many people dying around them so why bother getting close.  

 

TBH losing AI pilots like that really does bug me.  I have not played in a few weeks because I hate watching them die every mission.  They don't know what to do with an FW 190.  They were pretty OK with the early 109s in Moscow but they are just dropping like flies in the 190, and flying the Kuban map makes it even worse.  

[Ram399]

25 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

TBH losing AI pilots like that really does bug me.  I have not played in a few weeks because I hate watching them die every mission.  They don't know what to do with an FW 190.  They were pretty OK with the early 109s in Moscow but they are just dropping like flies in the 190, and flying the Kuban map makes it even worse.  

The mountains near Novorossiysk are the primary cause of death for around 2/3rds of my Feldwebel pilots nowadays, though that goes for pretty much any AI aircraft around there.
CFIT is a problem even without a war going on so its not really baseless that the occasional pilot should be lost to terrain, but the AI does take it a bit too far.

On a somewhat more interesting note, I actually lost an Oberleutnant in the area to mountain wave turbulence of all things in a sort of unfortunate series of events.

If you fly low over the mountains in Kuban you'll notice the increased turbulence caused by wind flowing up and sinking around the slopes, though at most it will generally just jostle you around some.
Unfortunately for one of my AI pilots, he had his engine heavily damaged and rudder shot away over Novorossiysk and as such was limping for home low over the mountains lining the coast.

As I found out when I watched the recording later, his slow speed and complete lack of coordination was not a good combination, and he made it maybe half way to Anapa with his plane being thrown all over the place before one of the wings stalled and he went into a spin with no chance of recovering.

Its the little details like that which make me love IL-2.

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

That is pretty much the way real pilots handled it.  Too many people dying around them so why bother getting close.  

 

TBH losing AI pilots like that really does bug me.  I have not played in a few weeks because I hate watching them die every mission.  They don't know what to do with an FW 190.  They were pretty OK with the early 109s in Moscow but they are just dropping like flies in the 190, and flying the Kuban map makes it even worse.  

 

I learned early on that trying to fly an Fw 190 career on the Kuban map is an exercise in frustration. If I could make a suggestion to @-DED-Rapidus and others on the team: the Fw 190s need to learn to make better use of their emergency boost system - there's no way they should be getting plinked by the likes of LaGG-3s in mid-1943.

Edited September 3, 2020 by LukeFF

[Yogiflight]

Funnily in Bodenplatte career missions the AI is not too bad fighting Spits with their A8s. Usually it was at least as many Spits getting shot down as A8s. I would have thought my squadmates and the second A8 flight would get slaughtered, especially as I was playing on hard settings, like it should be, flying on German side in the late western scenarios.

[oc2209]

6 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

TBH losing AI pilots like that really does bug me.  I have not played in a few weeks because I hate watching them die every mission.  They don't know what to do with an FW 190.  They were pretty OK with the early 109s in Moscow but they are just dropping like flies in the 190, and flying the Kuban map makes it even worse.  

 

Ever try the 190-D career in Bodenplatte?

 

The AI can't possibly die with the same frequency as Kuban. 

 

I got the A-3 in the latest sale, so now I've got every 190 variant. I'm going to push through with a full career and end in the D, just to compare it to my 109 career.

4 hours ago, Ram399 said:

Its the little details like that which make me love IL-2.

 

Quite. I find it interesting to watch how much the AI struggles to keep crippled planes aloft. I think it does a remarkably good job in most instances.

[FTC_Zero]

AI do not like fast planes, the more BnZ stylish the plane gets, the worse it get handled by the AI. That the AI handles the D9 better than other models is more a placebo than anything. Battle of Bodenplatte consist of very fast planes compared to eastern theatre planes. AI in D9 is not better, just the majority of enemies AI planes got worse in comparison. It also helps that the D9 turns better than the Anton's. Helps if the AI turn right everything.

[IckyATLAS]

We continue talking about AI, but there is not much of Artificial Intelligence here. I have no idea how the flying skills of the wingmen are programmed but it is probably a set of parameters like "how hard you can turn", "what kind of figures you are allowed to do" etc. I would be happy to know by the way how it is done. 

The future we may have artificial neural nets ANN and learning features implemented. I will not use the buzzword "deep learning" because this is just for ANN with multiple layers and here they will all be so anyway. 

As an example you may get a set of trained ANN to a certain level of skill in flying a plane that comes for each training level. This is done by the devs and you get them included in the game. In career mode they can be modified through learning depending on actions and the ANN will improve its skills from the base level it started.

What I am saying here above are existing techniques that work well in an environment where the rules of the game are known, like games of chess, go and many other video games where ANNs are now able to beat any human player. Flying a plane and air combat is after all an environment pretty constrained by many rules and the plane specifications. Do not respect them and you crash or get killed.