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About the ubermodeled Bf-110 G2


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I don't think climb is the issue, I think mostly it's UFO flaps and the fact that the 110 pilot must be a silverback to throw a plane around like that at low speed. I have to see how it seems to turn now after the fix...but I know it was nuts before when you dropped flaps. it used to seem far too nimble, and may very well still may be. agility over single engined fighters was supposed to be it's weakness...so...where is it? 

 

Edited by gimpy117
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JG13_opcode
15 hours ago, gimpy117 said:

I don't think climb is the issue, I think mostly it's UFO flaps and the fact that the 110 pilot must be a silverback to throw a plane around like that at low speed. I have to see how it seems to turn now after the fix...but I know it was nuts before when you dropped flaps. it used to seem far too nimble, and may very well still may be. agility over single engined fighters was supposed to be it's weakness...so...where is it? 

 

 

Flaps are broadly too effective at generating lift in this sim; there was a similar "UFO" issue with the P47 a while ago. Not sure if it was corrected or not.

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9 hours ago, JG13_opcode said:

Not sure if it was corrected or not.

According to the last update, it has been tweaked somewhat. Dunno how much of a difference it really makes tho.

And i dont know if the Spit 9 still cannot be stalled with flaps out. If i remember correctly, there was a pretty long and well made video about that some time ago. Dunno if that is fixed

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LLv34_Flanker

S!

 

Tempest can be flown without losing altitude or even trying to stall at 80mph, gear and flaps down. La-5FN rolls 160-180deg/sec which it never did in real life, big cannons do not throw off the recoil and whatnot. I would not be worried about 110G-2 if I were you.

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Yes they should realy fix more imprtant airplanes that are brken like 109s with titanium tail and helecopter type hovers when using flaps, 110 can wait :)

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8 hours ago, HBG-H_Stiglitz said:

And i dont know if the Spit 9 still cannot be stalled with flaps out. If i remember correctly, there was a pretty long and well made video about that some time ago. Dunno if that is fixed

Spitfire flaps behaviour was fixed. They do now about what they should do.

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On 8/3/2020 at 5:46 AM, CountZero said:

Yes they should realy fix more imprtant airplanes that are brken like 109s with titanium tail and helecopter type hovers when using flaps, 110 can wait :)

actually i think the biggest problem is when you get a plane with a tail gunner, a decent bomb-load that can instantly transform into a UFO fighter. 

too many tools in it's chest to also have a broken flight model. 

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Aurora_Stealth

Cheers @HomicideHank I can't up-vote your post as I've already used them up today on other posts.

 

Good to hear your side of the story... so thanks for explaining.

 

Fair enough, I'm happy to be corrected. And I did stall, because your aircraft appeared stalled itself when I was watching and then curiously started increasing its climb angle up to 45 degrees as if the flaps had gone down. I don't have video footage so I can't comment further but will take your word for it.

 

However two things still don't add up for me - the first is putting down landing flaps (for all aircraft) should cause a visible pitch down effect but in-game it actually causes a pitch-up effect giving the chance to take a snap shot at a target - and people do exploit this - I can't comment on people's choice to use it however.

 

Secondly, I'm not sure on what basis a Mark IX Spitfire (even with 150 octane) should out-climb a K-4 in real life, I'm certainly skeptical about this although I appreciate its dependent on altitude and other factors. I'd rather not get into a debate about it on this thread. I'm relying mainly on historical information I know and have read and pilots I've spoken with on the warbird scene, rather than exactly what is modelled in game which is always subject to change and correction.

 

Anyway, cheers again

Edited by Aurora_Stealth
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34 minutes ago, Aurora_Stealth said:

 

Secondly, I'm not sure on what basis a Mark IX Spitfire (even with 150 octane) should out-climb a K-4 in real life, I'm certainly skeptical about this although I appreciate its dependent on altitude and other factors. I'd rather not get into a debate about it on this thread. I'm relying mainly on historical information I know and have read and pilots I've spoken with on the warbird scene, rather than exactly what is modelled in game which is always subject to change and correction.

 

Anyway, cheers again

I'm not attempting to debate this but I had a quick look for records>

Also, the things going for the spitfire against the k4.

4 Blade prop.
Similar P2W ratio with lower wing loading, which should benefit it in a max rate climb.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/jl165rr.html

Also the merlin 66 makes 1,705 hp on 18lb, so I believe the 150 octane would be giving it around 2000hp, which is around the same as the k4 at 1.98 ata's 2000PS.

The spitfire is a lot less streamlined though, so at higher speeds the K4 should hold a slight advantage in climb rate. Some of the tests used the radiator override to open the cooling flaps, which reduced to around 5000 fpm the spitfire's climb rate, and in game sustained use of 25lb on all but the coldest maps will mean the spitfire's radiators open, which, in game, really effects the performance of the spit.

 

Edited by 71st_AH_Barnacles
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  • 2 weeks later...

I've noticed that people who complain about the BF-110 G2, have never flown it or rarely fly it to begin with. I promise if you take her up and get into a dogfight, you'll quickly realize it's not a cake walk for beginners. Like any other plane, you learn how to fly to your strengths and how to fight certain planes, deal with the weaknesses, when to break, disengage etcetera. Just comes with experience is all. 🙂

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  • 1 year later...
=310th=Crazyivano1

With the WANNBE virtual pilots, you need ask your self this, why was the 110 removed from daylight service and placed into night fighter service. 

 

January/February 1944

The experiences of "Zerstörergeschwader "Horst Wessel", a Bf 110 squadron, indicates what happened to twin-engine fighters in the new combat environment. The unit worked up over January and February to operational ready status. At 12:13 pm on February 20, 13 Bf 110s scrambled after approaching formations. Six minutes later three more took off to join the first group. When they arrived at the designated contact point there was nothing left to meet. American fighters had jumped the 13 Bf 110s from the sun and shot down 11. Meanwhile two enemy fighters strafed the airfield and damaged nine more aircraft. 

Point is, in this game this could never happen based on the FM used by IC, you don't get it.  Final note according to both the Luftwaffe and the 8th Airforce (outside ME-262A) average aerial combat speed was about 285mph.  There is a huge REASON WHY, but I'll let you figure that one out.  If you want to make the game more a simulation than the current (eye-candy) arcade.  You need to look at all factors that evolved flight and aerial combat.  

 

Ref from Wilki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_110_operational_history#cite_ref-Murray_p._242_63-0

 

 

With the WANNBE virtual pilots, you need ask your self this, why was the 110 removed from daylight service and placed into night fighter service. 

 

January/February 1944

The experiences of "Zerstörergeschwader "Horst Wessel", a Bf 110 squadron, indicates what happened to twin-engine fighters in the new combat environment. The unit worked up over January and February to operational ready status. At 12:13 pm on February 20, 13 Bf 110s scrambled after approaching formations. Six minutes later three more took off to join the first group. When they arrived at the designated contact point there was nothing left to meet. American fighters had jumped the 13 Bf 110s from the sun and shot down 11. Meanwhile two enemy fighters strafed the airfield and damaged nine more aircraft. 

Point is, in this game this could never happen based on the FM used by IC, you don't get it.  Final note according to both the Luftwaffe and the 8th Airforce (outside ME-262A) average aerial combat speed was about 285mph.  There is a huge REASON WHY, but I'll let you figure that one out.  If you want to make the game more a simulation than the current (eye-candy) arcade.  You need to look at all factors that evolved flight and aerial combat.  

 

Ref from Wilki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_110_operational_history#cite_ref-Murray_p._242_63-0

 

 

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gimpy117

still needs looked at. I hope they can find time between making new stuff to sell... 

Edited by gimpy117
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-332FG-drewm3i-VR

On Finnish, I frequently come into contact with ETs flying the Bf-110 helicopter ufo. Not sure I've ever been shot down by one though...they do seem to have ridiculous turn performance and are one of the worst offenders at maintaining control authority with almost no airspeed (along with the Hurricane, 109s with flaps).

4 hours ago, gimpy117 said:

still needs looked at. I hope they can find time between making new stuff to sell... 

 

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CountZero
6 hours ago, 310th.Crazyivano1 said:

With the WANNBE virtual pilots, you need ask your self this, why was the 110 removed from daylight service and placed into night fighter service. 

 

January/February 1944

The experiences of "Zerstörergeschwader "Horst Wessel", a Bf 110 squadron, indicates what happened to twin-engine fighters in the new combat environment. The unit worked up over January and February to operational ready status. At 12:13 pm on February 20, 13 Bf 110s scrambled after approaching formations. Six minutes later three more took off to join the first group. When they arrived at the designated contact point there was nothing left to meet. American fighters had jumped the 13 Bf 110s from the sun and shot down 11. Meanwhile two enemy fighters strafed the airfield and damaged nine more aircraft. 

Point is, in this game this could never happen based on the FM used by IC, you don't get it.  Final note according to both the Luftwaffe and the 8th Airforce (outside ME-262A) average aerial combat speed was about 285mph.  There is a huge REASON WHY, but I'll let you figure that one out.  If you want to make the game more a simulation than the current (eye-candy) arcade.  You need to look at all factors that evolved flight and aerial combat.  

 

Ref from Wilki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_110_operational_history#cite_ref-Murray_p._242_63-0

 

 

With the WANNBE virtual pilots, you need ask your self this, why was the 110 removed from daylight service and placed into night fighter service. 

 

January/February 1944

The experiences of "Zerstörergeschwader "Horst Wessel", a Bf 110 squadron, indicates what happened to twin-engine fighters in the new combat environment. The unit worked up over January and February to operational ready status. At 12:13 pm on February 20, 13 Bf 110s scrambled after approaching formations. Six minutes later three more took off to join the first group. When they arrived at the designated contact point there was nothing left to meet. American fighters had jumped the 13 Bf 110s from the sun and shot down 11. Meanwhile two enemy fighters strafed the airfield and damaged nine more aircraft. 

Point is, in this game this could never happen based on the FM used by IC, you don't get it.  Final note according to both the Luftwaffe and the 8th Airforce (outside ME-262A) average aerial combat speed was about 285mph.  There is a huge REASON WHY, but I'll let you figure that one out.  If you want to make the game more a simulation than the current (eye-candy) arcade.  You need to look at all factors that evolved flight and aerial combat.  

 

Ref from Wilki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_110_operational_history#cite_ref-Murray_p._242_63-0

 

 

if in real ww2, air battles and fronts were 20min apart, allieds and germans had same number of airplanes and pilots in air in 1944, and 110s flew with 20% fuel and were fighting 5min from their bases, you would have same stuff you see in game, 110s turning with anything they see. Also give american airplanes real ww2 ammo and not crap this game sim for it.

 

Put real ww2 conditions in onine missions and story will be more realistic, and sone no one would be playing on axis side online or on that type of server.

Edited by CountZero
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ACG_Talisman
2 hours ago, CountZero said:

if in real ww2, air battles and fronts were 20min apart, allieds and germans had same number of airplanes and pilots in air in 1944, and 110s flew with 20% fuel and were fighting 5min from their bases, you would have same stuff you see in game, 110s turning with anything they see. Also give american airplanes real ww2 ammo and not crap this game sim for it.

 

Put real ww2 conditions in onine missions and story will be more realistic, and sone no one would be playing on axis side online or on that type of server.

 

Now with 20% fuel in Bf 110 and lots of fumes in the tanks to cause fire and explosion being part of the new damage model, Bf 110 is suffering the increased risk of short fuel loadouts.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman 

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CountZero
2 hours ago, ACG_Talisman said:

 

Now with 20% fuel in Bf 110 and lots of fumes in the tanks to cause fire and explosion being part of the new damage model, Bf 110 is suffering the increased risk of short fuel loadouts.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman 

Same will be for any twin ground attack airplane in game if this is how things will be in future, but because small maps most impact will be on good old merican airplanes, that are made for long ranges that dont exist in this game. And on top they dont have HE ammo that makes other airplanes boom, rip usaf long live RAF 😄

Edited by CountZero
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GOA_FirebirdCRI_VR

I don't know what situation is worst, the Bf110G2 flaps abuse at low speed or P47 climb with flaps down like this image..

 

I can't imagine the torque that can pull those fridges in RLF while doing those maneuvers.

FB_IMG_1629820189807.jpg

FB_IMG_1629820185756.jpg

Edited by GOA_Firebird_VR
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6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann
8 hours ago, drewm3i-VR said:

On Finnish, I frequently come into contact with ETs flying the Bf-110 helicopter ufo. Not sure I've ever been shot down by one though...they do seem to have ridiculous turn performance and are one of the worst offenders at maintaining control authority with almost no airspeed (along with the Hurricane, 109s with flaps).

Twins Engine Prop Planes are ridiculous in real Life as well though. They have way more Low Speed Lift due to Props being Closer to the Wing and there being two of them, so the Effective Area in the Wash is way bigger proportionally.

Twin Tails mean more Elevator and Rudder Control, especially without a Fuselage in the Way.

 

Anyways, Bf110s are easy Prey ingame and I've never been shot down by them in any late War Fighter. Why do peopla assume that just because it's heavy it won't gets its Nose more than 15° over the Horizon?
It's Powerful and still a Fighter with Slats and decent Wingloading, and great Flying Characteristics.

But as long as you don't do that stupid thing where you sit vertically above someone like a ripe grape for the picking, and keep out of gun range until it's opportune to attack you will be fine.

Keep your Attacks Fast and Horizontal.

 

 

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sturmkraehe
On 7/21/2020 at 9:04 PM, WheelwrightPL said:

It must have been a good pilot in the 110G2, who knows how to "fly coordinated" (Google this).

An inferior plane can outfly a superior plane, if its pilot knows to "keep the ball in the middle". If you're not happy about this, there is always WarThunder, flight sims are not everyone's cup-of-tea. With equal pilots the 110G2 is not a "ridiculous" plane, unless I missed something and there is some flaps exploit or something dodgy like that.

I tend to disagree. Flying the ball in the middle may be decisive of the planes are close in performance. It is neglectable if the performance difference is large. The ball in the middle effect is not large in small SEP planes like a Cessna and it gets less important with high performance planes. Not saying one can neglect it but it is not the most decisive factor.

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-332FG-drewm3i-VR
2 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Twins Engine Prop Planes are ridiculous in real Life as well though. They have way more Low Speed Lift due to Props being Closer to the Wing and there being two of them, so the Effective Area in the Wash is way bigger proportionally.

Twin Tails mean more Elevator and Rudder Control, especially without a Fuselage in the Way.

 

Anyways, Bf110s are easy Prey ingame and I've never been shot down by them in any late War Fighter. Why do peopla assume that just because it's heavy it won't gets its Nose more than 15° over the Horizon?
It's Powerful and still a Fighter with Slats and decent Wingloading, and great Flying Characteristics.

But as long as you don't do that stupid thing where you sit vertically above someone like a ripe grape for the picking, and keep out of gun range until it's opportune to attack you will be fine.

Keep your Attacks Fast and Horizontal.

 

 

I can't comment on if what I see online is actually possible in something like a 110, but it is hilarious to see a big and relatively aerodynamically inefficient heavy fighter design like the 110 helicopter climbing vertically at you while spraying cannon shells hoping to score a lucky hit.

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6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann
32 minutes ago, drewm3i-VR said:

I can't comment on if what I see online is actually possible in something like a 110, but it is hilarious to see a big and relatively aerodynamically inefficient heavy fighter design like the 110 helicopter climbing vertically at you while spraying cannon shells hoping to score a lucky hit.

Okay, do you remember 3rd Grade Physics, Gravity?

 

On a Bicycle you exert the most Force on the Drive Sprocket when your Connecting Rods are fully horizontal and no Force when the Rods are fully vertical.

When you stand in the Pedals in the Horizontal Position you have to Balance your forward and aft foot exactly, which is quite easy.

Do the same with one Pedal up and the other down you will have more Trouble and stand less secure with a bit of a pendulum going on.

 

Now imagine your forward/high foot is the nose of the Plane while your aft/low foot is the tail and the Center Shaft are the Wings.

 

So, in the Horizontal Plane the Weight Center of Gravity clearly tells the Plane to nose down, and the Elevator Counterbalances. In a 45° degree Climb the CoG still quite clearly tells the Plane to Nose down once it is too slow.

But once you are 90° Nose up, all three Centres line up and now the Plane is really unstable and could go any way, fall over forward, backward or to the Side. And in this Vertical Climb it is easiest to Control the Plane via Propwash.

It is then very unstable, a Seesaw and a good Pilot can use it to do the Helicopter.

 

It's virtually impossible to the Prophanging at shallow Angles, like a 60° Climb.

 

This Way you can "Prophang" even in a Glider without an Engine. Video is Timestamped to 4:29, only 10 Seconds I want you to watch before any more uninformed Talk.

 

 

 

 

Edited by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann
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gimpy117
4 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Okay, do you remember 3rd Grade Physics, Gravity?

 

On a Bicycle you exert the most Force on the Drive Sprocket when your Connecting Rods are fully horizontal and no Force when the Rods are fully vertical.

When you stand in the Pedals in the Horizontal Position you have to Balance your forward and aft foot exactly, which is quite easy.

Do the same with one Pedal up and the other down you will have more Trouble and stand less secure with a bit of a pendulum going on.

 

Now imagine your forward/high foot is the nose of the Plane while your aft/low foot is the tail and the Center Shaft are the Wings.

 

So, in the Horizontal Plane the Weight Center of Gravity clearly tells the Plane to nose down, and the Elevator Counterbalances. In a 45° degree Climb the CoG still quite clearly tells the Plane to Nose down once it is too slow.

But once you are 90° Nose up, all three Centres line up and now the Plane is really unstable and could go any way, fall over forward, backward or to the Side. And in this Vertical Climb it is easiest to Control the Plane via Propwash.

It is then very unstable, a Seesaw and a good Pilot can use it to do the Helicopter.

 

It's virtually impossible to the Prophanging at shallow Angles, like a 60° Climb.

 

This Way you can "Prophang" even in a Glider without an Engine. Video is Timestamped to 4:29, only 10 Seconds I want you to watch before any more uninformed Talk.

 

 

 

 

I gotta point out though, that's an aerobatic glider. its a very light aircraft purpose built for those kind of maneuvers. You're comparing a linebacker to a ballerina. I think the point is...yeah...you can prop hang it's just to easy to do in Il2 alongside very generous high alpha manauvers.  

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JG51_Beazil
On 8/23/2020 at 5:45 PM, Derfety said:

I've noticed that people who complain about the BF-110 G2, have never flown it or rarely fly it to begin with. I promise if you take her up and get into a dogfight, you'll quickly realize it's not a cake walk for beginners. Like any other plane, you learn how to fly to your strengths and how to fight certain planes, deal with the weaknesses, when to break, disengage etcetera. Just comes with experience is all. 🙂

This.  Let me add that your victory In a 110 usually depends a lot on your opponent making a small mistake for you to exploit.  Opponents who can tell when they shouldn't push a fight do better than those who push too hard too fast.

I say this as a predominantly 110 guy.

Edited by JG51_Beazil
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6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann
5 hours ago, gimpy117 said:

I gotta point out though, that's an aerobatic glider. its a very light aircraft purpose built for those kind of maneuvers. You're comparing a linebacker to a ballerina. I think the point is...yeah...you can prop hang it's just to easy to do in Il2 alongside very generous high alpha manauvers.  

Weight doesn't matter though.

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sturmkraehe
16 hours ago, GOA_Firebird_VR said:

I don't know what situation is worst, the Bf110G2 flaps abuse at low speed or P47 climb with flaps down like this image..

 

I can't imagine the torque that can pull those fridges in RLF while doing those maneuvers.

FB_IMG_1629820189807.jpg

FB_IMG_1629820185756.jpg

 

These picts say nothing. If you catch up excessive speed in a steep dive I am quite sure that realistically you can have a few seconds of steep climb even with flaps down.

 

Another question: Is high speed damage to flaps modelled btw? In most planes I fly there is a speed limit for extending flaps.

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LLv34_Flanker

S!

 

I fly Bf110E-2 and G-2 quite a bit as with age my combat skills have gone from bad to down the drain 😄 E-2 is a total slouch, without E you are done if engaged by a pilot who has even the slightest grasp of E fighting and conserving speed. Partly it is due the wrong engines modelled in the E-2, devs decided to put in engines used in E-0 series(20 or so airframes). Actually the E-1 and onwards had same engine as 109E-4/7 aka DB601N but with different gearbox. But that is an another matter. G-2 can fight better due it´s increased horsepower, but again a pilot able to use speed and E against the G-2 will win in most cases. Bf110G is a lot slower than later war planes, can not sustain a lot of damage without going down and requires most of the time wingman/wingmen to succeed. And it for sure can not disengage at will due it´s lower speed over contemporary fighters.

 

 

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ACG_Talisman
17 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Okay, do you remember 3rd Grade Physics, Gravity?

 

On a Bicycle you exert the most Force on the Drive Sprocket when your Connecting Rods are fully horizontal and no Force when the Rods are fully vertical.

When you stand in the Pedals in the Horizontal Position you have to Balance your forward and aft foot exactly, which is quite easy.

Do the same with one Pedal up and the other down you will have more Trouble and stand less secure with a bit of a pendulum going on.

 

Now imagine your forward/high foot is the nose of the Plane while your aft/low foot is the tail and the Center Shaft are the Wings.

 

So, in the Horizontal Plane the Weight Center of Gravity clearly tells the Plane to nose down, and the Elevator Counterbalances. In a 45° degree Climb the CoG still quite clearly tells the Plane to Nose down once it is too slow.

But once you are 90° Nose up, all three Centres line up and now the Plane is really unstable and could go any way, fall over forward, backward or to the Side. And in this Vertical Climb it is easiest to Control the Plane via Propwash.

It is then very unstable, a Seesaw and a good Pilot can use it to do the Helicopter.

 

It's virtually impossible to the Prophanging at shallow Angles, like a 60° Climb.

 

This Way you can "Prophang" even in a Glider without an Engine. Video is Timestamped to 4:29, only 10 Seconds I want you to watch before any more uninformed Talk.

 

 

 

 

 

Imagine a Bf 110 rear gunner keeping his shots on target in the back seat under all that stress and strain, lol, those gunners are superhuman!

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

Edited by ACG_Talisman
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1PL-Husar-1Esk
2 hours ago, ACG_Talisman said:

 

Imagine a Bf 110 rear gunner keeping his shots on target in the back seat under all that stress and strain, lol, those gunners are superhuman!

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

They are 🤣 , they will fire at you despite plane is on fire, spinning  towards earth. Smoke ,wounds,  gravity do not apply 🤣

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BCI-Nazgul
On 8/1/2020 at 5:03 PM, Roland_HUNter said:

 

So please stop this "Devs care more about LW" thing. Please.

Apparently you haven't tried to use American .50 armed planes against anything online.

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gimpy117
18 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Weight doesn't matter though.

huh? using an aerobatic sail plane to claim prop hanging is easy (especially in a 110) is totally misleading. Weight certainly matters when you're trying to maneuver an aircraft...especially when control surfaces aren't boosted. I would guess if you added up control surface area as well, the sailplane pound for pound still blows the 110 out of the water. why? it's designed for extreme maneuverability.     

3 hours ago, BCI-Nazgul said:

Apparently you haven't tried to use American .50 armed planes against anything online.

it's also more of a slap in the face that the 109 gets the drop tanks first...because it's a "priority" 

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6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann
7 hours ago, gimpy117 said:

huh? using an aerobatic sail plane to claim prop hanging is easy (especially in a 110) is totally misleading. Weight certainly matters when you're trying to maneuver an aircraft...especially when control surfaces aren't boosted. I would guess if you added up control surface area as well, the sailplane pound for pound still blows the 110 out of the water. why? it's designed for extreme maneuverability.     

it's also more of a slap in the face that the 109 gets the drop tanks first...because it's a "priority" 

*Exasperatedly* Because it isn't Prop Hanging. It is moving the Center of Gravity Vertically above the Aerodynamic Fulcrum (Center of Lift) of the Airplane.

You won't find Airshow Videos of large Aircraft doing this because they don't have Control Surfaces rated for flying in Reverse.

Because the Aircraft is balanced in the Vertical and slow the Control Forces during Vertical Flight go towards 0, as the Elevator doesn't have to lift the Nose anymore, just balance it with light inputs.

Like this:

 

Seal, Aquatic, Animal, Zoo, Ball, Balance, Good, Stunt

 

 

Weight doesn't matter, everything on Earth is accelerated at 9.81m/s2.

Edited by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann
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[DBS]TH0R
2 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Weight doesn't matter, everything on Earth is accelerated at 9.81m/s2.

 

Perhaps when talking strictly about the ability to control. For which this sim is very generous when it comes to slow speed handling. Power to weight ratio and the ability to keep the engine on max power dictates how high you can climb, and also plays a role in what kind of control a pilot has control at the top of the vertical climb.

Edited by [DBS]TH0R
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6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann
1 hour ago, [DBS]TH0R said:

 

Perhaps when talking strictly about the ability to control. For which this sim is very generous when it comes to slow speed handling. Power to weight ratio and the ability to keep the engine on max power dictates how high you can climb, and also plays a role in what kind of control a pilot has control at the top of the vertical climb.

Your Entry Speed into the Vertical is most important. Power/Weight is Secondary, until you get into Jets with modern Afterburners.

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sturmkraehe
3 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

*Exasperatedly* Because it isn't Prop Hanging. It is moving the Center of Gravity Vertically above the Aerodynamic Fulcrum (Center of Lift) of the Airplane.

You won't find Airshow Videos of large Aircraft doing this because they don't have Control Surfaces rated for flying in Reverse.

Because the Aircraft is balanced in the Vertical and slow the Control Forces during Vertical Flight go towards 0, as the Elevator doesn't have to lift the Nose anymore, just balance it with light inputs.

Like this:

 

Seal, Aquatic, Animal, Zoo, Ball, Balance, Good, Stunt

 

 

Weight doesn't matter, everything on Earth is accelerated at 9.81m/s2.

 

 

While this is true, I would like to point out following:

- As soon as airspeed gets low the forces that can be generated by the control surfaces gets small too. This may be to some extend be compensated by propwash but then prop torque effect should also be stronger because damping effects of e.g. the wings will be reduced too.

- Propwash could at best affect elevator and rudder but not ailerons. Ailerons should become really ineffective at very slow speeds.

- BTW ailerons are not affected by this balance thing at all. They still will require the same forces for roll

- You still have to overcome nose (and tail) inertia. This is why despite weightlessness in space you still need some force to accelerate items.

- The hanging on prop situation should be extremely instable. Because very small elevator and rudder effects will cause large movements, I think it is very difficult for a human being to fully control this state. Very small deviations from the equilibrum point will lead to quick divergence from this equilibrum point. 

Edited by sturmkraehe
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6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann
3 minutes ago, sturmkraehe said:

The hanging on prop situation should be extremely instable. Because very small elevator and rudder effects will cause large movements, I think it is very difficult for a human being to fully control this state. Very small deviations from the equilibrum point will lead to quick divergence from this equilibrum point. 

 

3 minutes ago, sturmkraehe said:

As soon as airspeed gets low the forces that can be generated by the control surfaces gets small too. This may be to some extend be compensated by propwash but then prop torque effect should also be stronger because damping effects of e.g. the wings will be reduced too.

Absolutely.

 

Take a 109 into the Vertical and below 120km/h it becomes a spinning Top.

 

 

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sturmkraehe

BTW there is one thing that has not yet been mentioned here:

 

With low airspeed the heat exchanger will no longer work properly. One should observe steep rises in oil and cooling water temperatures.

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sturmkraehe

No, do you?

 

Nevertheless, this is physics, and even if heat exchange data is not existant it is no excuse for not modelling it. If there is no data available, one has to make engineering models, and there are tons of it in BoS because otherwise we would not have one single plane modelled.

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