Enemy Plane AI...

[Atlantia39]

Seems most dogfights devolve into basic turnfests...deflection shooting.

 

Any way to improve?

[PatrickAWlson]

They have been working on AI and the improvements are definitely noticeable compared to a year or so ago.  Still a way to go.  

 

The AI will do vertical maneuvers at altitude, but once altitude is lost (inevitable) they no longer have the energy needed and revert to turning.  In real life pilots would try to disengage before things got to this point.  With the AI you have unrealistic outcomes for multiple reasons:

1. The AI has no survival instinct and will therefore continue to engage to the death (or at a minimum for far too long)

2. The AI sees everything, so not only does it engage to the death it never loses track either.  In real life pilots frequently simply lost track of each other, turned around and went home.

 

This makes the fights much more prolonged than most real WWII combats.  Now combine this with the inevitable loss in altitude and you have a fight to the death that almost must eventually devolve into a low altitude turn fest.

 

German outcomes are particularly affected.  German tactics relied far more heavily on hit and run, leave when you have lost the advantage (not when your aircraft has been reduced to a smoking heap).  German aircraft were optimized for this sort of fight.  Result is Germans take a lot more losses than they did historically because the AI is not using the aircraft or the situation properly.  

[Atomic_Spaniel]

31 minutes ago, Atlantia39 said:

Any way to improve?

 

The AI is now much better at energy fighting than it used to be - but as Pat says, once it's on the deck it runs out of options and goes into the old constant-turning routine. The way to see the AI at its best is simply to set the combats at a greater height. A nice example is to take something like a 190a8 and fight against a P-38 at 4,000 m. The AI will hold energy quite well in such a combat.

 

To be fair to the AI, real-life pilot accounts of combat at low level often describe aircraft getting into extended circling fights until one aircraft managed to draw round onto the other's tail.

[DrDeath_MD]

Even being a flight lead, the AI options seem very limited. If I am not a lead, there is no way to regroup or have the AI give an update on where to regroup after ground attack or air to air combat. Instead you have to fly around and hope you can find them if separated. Also, it is hard to tell AI to break off on escort missions. Many times they will go fight enemy bombers or ground attack planes (especially prevalent in the PWCG). When I'm the leader, I want them to stay on me and the mission and break off when I tell them to. 

In short, is there a chance to improve how to control friendly AI and maybe add some radio commands to catch up with them? 

[Gambit21]

AI is being worked on, it's already improved and will keep improving over time.

[Feathered_IV]

Looking forward to them not deserting me without so much as a “Repeat Please” to go off chasing distant contacts. 

[DrDeath_MD]

Or them not following you to go check a distant contact....so you show up and meet some fighters and get wrecked.

[Avimimus]

In a lot of historical accounts fighters get separated pretty quickly and then retreat individually (as they don't want to be vulnerable - which a separated aircraft tends to be). I get the impression that some fights were prolonged (if the aircraft stayed engaged)... but if they disengaged from each other they tended to head home (Not always of course...)

 

But there are also accounts of entire formations not engaging the enemy and both formations trying to out-climb each other for an advantage etc. So coordinated action is definitely a thing before a fight. I'm not sure how often regrouping happened though.

[Ekaton]

I have a new gaming PC on its way and thought about trying Il-2 again. I wonder if AI and encounter ratio are still bad. One thing that made me give up on Il-2 was it’s absolutely terrible encounter ratio and AI that always attacks you, rather than consider its odds first. It’s especially bad when I get jumped on every bomber mission, and the enemy always knows where I am, even from miles away. Is it still the same? It’s really odd as the tiny dev team behind WOFF made their AI absolutely amazing, while such a big budget project didn’t.

[[DBS]Browning]

Many AI improvements have been made and improvements continue to come ever patch.

[Ekaton]

So is the AI always attacking you and always knowing where you are not an issue anymore?

 

Also, how much does using PWCG help?

[buck1ea]

 The AI in looks like it just flies in circles, every time. Not even a basic rolling scissors. Does the AI actually do anything else?

 

In ROF, BOB, and the new Tobruk.

 

 

[smink1701]

The short answer is yes. Some will say it has been improved and if so it’s negligible. AI pilots are super human who get more out of their plane than you ever could and they never miss. Bomber gunners use sniper rifles. IMHO it’s the game’s biggest flaw. It needs a total rework which I think the developers can not afford. 
Have a nice and safe day. 
Out!

[Semor76]

"Is AI still bad?"

 

Yes.

 

Will be improvements made over the time? I hope so.

[G_Schwarz]

if its 1v1 the AI still do the circle thing sometime it brake and dive other times it just keep circling and it get very annoying , but 3v3 and up it's a alright, in career mod i think it's better.

this is what i think, you may have other opinion.

[Lusekofte]

I like ai in coop. You get bounced they do surprise you. As long as your mates are human I have a lot good things to say. 
But once you are committed in a dogfight it goes in everlasting left turns

[Ekaton]

45 minutes ago, smink1701 said:

The short answer is yes. Some will say it has been improved and if so it’s negligible. AI pilots are super human who get more out of their plane than you ever could and they never miss. Bomber gunners use sniper rifles. IMHO it’s the game’s biggest flaw. It needs a total rework which I think the developers can not afford. 
Have a nice and safe day. 
Out!

As I said, it can’t be a resource thing. WOFF team is just two or three people IIRC, and they delivered amazing AI and alive world in which other planes are flying around the map, conducting their own missions and everything feels authentic. And all that on a modded CFS engine. 
 

How card can it be to make the AI at least not pursue you from miles away?

 

 

It’s such a shame that it’s still not fixed.

Edited August 1, 2020 by Ekaton

[Gryzor]

What is happening NOW with tha AI with planes (all ranks, from novice to ace) in the latest updates? It seems impossible that they down you or downs others plane. in a Dogfight!!

 

Try this simple test: 1 Vs 1 one on one quick mission (ACE LEVEL), 5 minutes without touching stick... and the enemy is unable to hit you, even lost your sight in a simple pursuit. This is not realistic.

 

Another simple test: 8 VS 8 planes, ACE level, they start turning and dancing BUT in 15 minutes no planes are downed, no hits, no count.... it seems SUPER easy to down now an AI enemy plane, this seems totally unrealistic to me, to the point that no air-air mission or campaigns represents any challenge to me. Come on, even in a straight flight the enemy its very clumsy.

 

Nobody noticed that?

 

Please DEV´s any opinion or some words about it? I remember in the past that the enemy planes, at leas, could pursuit and shoot you...

[DBFlyguy]

I know this has probably been beaten to death... but the AI really needs some improvement across the board but especially friendly AI.  No matter what you change their skill level to in QMB, they are a bunch of useless aerial targets for the enemy AI and can't seem to hit the broad side of a barn even if an enemy AI happens to fly directly in front of them.  The enemy AI has improved some with each update but it seems like friendly AI has not at all.  

 

Hopefully this will get better....

 

 

[=RS=Stix_09]

But the question some are asking is , do the AI still all turn fight regardless of plane type and eventually get locked in a circle turn?

 

?

FYI all updates are very much appreciated, just saying...

[DD_Arthur]

1 hour ago, =RS=Stix_09 said:

But the question some are asking is , do the AI still all turn fight regardless of plane type and eventually get locked in a circle turn?

Then ‘some’ must get off their backsides, fire up the game and find out.

[=RS=Stix_09]

5 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

Then ‘some’ must get off their backsides, fire up the game and find out.

I posted this is 4.009 update discussion , I did not move it here the moderator did, so it's a valid question.

also, soon as opportunity comes I will ..

[enyak]

On 7/16/2020 at 4:32 PM, PatrickAWlson said:

2. The AI sees everything, so not only does it engage to the death it never loses track either.  In real life pilots frequently simply lost track of each other, turned around and went home.

 

Is this really true? Does the AI not have a sensory simulation model (no eyes to the back, can't see below canopy, etc) at all? This would be such an oversight. It certainly seems like the AI is always turning into the player always cognizant of the exact position.

 

EDIT: Well, I did some tests approaching fleeing enemy AI (Yak 1 non-bubble canopy) from below and behind. The AI was able to spot me every time and started evasion. It really seems like the AIs canopy view is unrestricted, not too much mention a constant 360° scan. Has anybody else confirm this? If so, I really want to see an improvement in the simulation here.

Edited November 29, 2020 by enyak

[Lolrawr]

On 11/26/2020 at 1:49 PM, enyak said:

Has anybody else confirm this?

Yes, the AI still has 360 degree unrestricted vision (from my tests). As soon as i'm in firing range the AI will start evading, no matter the angle of my aproach or if he is engaged with firendly AIs.

 

Another issue was/is with bomber gunner AI, i don't if this has been adressed but in the past they used to track you trough mountains, this basically gave bomber pilots in MP pocket radars.

[sniperton]

On 11/26/2020 at 12:49 PM, enyak said:

 

Is this really true? Does the AI not have a sensory simulation model (no eyes to the back, can't see below canopy, etc) at all? This would be such an oversight. It certainly seems like the AI is always turning into the player always cognizant of the exact position.

 

EDIT: Well, I did some tests approaching fleeing enemy AI (Yak 1 non-bubble canopy) from below and behind. The AI was able to spot me every time and started evasion. It really seems like the AIs canopy view is unrestricted, not too much mention a constant 360° scan. Has anybody else confirm this? If so, I really want to see an improvement in the simulation here.

Tests in the QMB are not reliable in this respect because the AI is already aware of you.

Tests with unaware enemy confirm that the AI actually has blind spots which reflect the geometry of the plane type. E.g. a Spit pilot is blind if you come from low 6 or low 9 to 11, but does see you if you come from low 7 to 9. In contrast, a P-39 pilot can't see you if you come from low 7 to 9, but does see you at low 9 to 11.

The main problem I guess is that once the AI acquired visual contact with you, he doesn't lose it as easily in maneuvers as we disoriented humans do.

[Matt]

AI view has always been restricted. Iirc, even RoF has that.

 

That's actually part of the problem with AI behaviour. They can't remember that you're there, they only know that you're there, when they can see you. So if they lose sight of you, they show erratic behaviour and they are practically forced to only turn fight. If they would try to use energy advantage (ie they are above you), they simply can't see you and attack properly. They can't bounce and climb away from you, because in most planes they would just lose sight of you, as you would be hidden by their fuselage.

 

So in this case, this "realistic" view restriction that everyone is asking for (and ironically, many people can't even notice that it's featured) is actually having a negative effect on AI fighting ability.

[sniperton]

3 hours ago, Matt said:

They can't remember that you're there, they only know that you're there, when they can see you.

I think it would be more precise to say that the AI always knows where you are, but is programmed to disregard this info if and when the sight is blocked. If the AI is programmed to avoid situations like that at all cost, it's quite natural what's you're describing as a result.

[Noisemaker]

4 hours ago, sniperton said:

I think it would be more precise to say that the AI always knows where you are, but is programmed to disregard this info if and when the sight is blocked. If the AI is programmed to avoid situations like that at all cost, it's quite natural what's you're describing as a result.

 

Not necessarily true.  I had a flight of 109s track my flight of P40s from over 60km away.  If I changed course, they adjusted to follow

[=621=Samikatz]

13 minutes ago, Noisemaker said:

 

Not necessarily true.  I had a flight of 109s track my flight of P40s from over 60km away.  If I changed course, they adjusted to follow

 

If I was to guess, I'd say that mission was set up with that flight directed to attack you specifically in the mission editor, so you are basically a waypoint to them. That mission direction and the in-combat AI are slightly different things. Once they get in range of you to fight they'll go to their usual operation

[Noisemaker]

15 minutes ago, =621=Samikatz said:

 

If I was to guess, I'd say that mission was set up with that flight directed to attack you specifically in the mission editor, so you are basically a waypoint to them. That mission direction and the in-combat AI are slightly different things. Once they get in range of you to fight they'll go to their usual operation

Well it was a SP campaign, so I was a bit pissed to discover that the AI always knew where we were and where we were going.

[sniperton]

29 minutes ago, Noisemaker said:

 

Not necessarily true.  I had a flight of 109s track my flight of P40s from over 60km away.  If I changed course, they adjusted to follow

As @=621=Samikatz said, it seems to be a mission/career design issue. Recent QMB or career missions are always saved as _gen.Mission files in the mission folder, so you can always resave them and investigate them in the ME for any oddities experienced. I don't say it's easy, I only say it's possible. At least you can submit them in addition to bugreports.

[enyak]

On 12/1/2020 at 11:34 AM, sniperton said:

Tests in the QMB are not reliable in this respect because the AI is already aware of you.

 

It's true, the AI was likely very aware of being followed. However my plane being lower, faster and on a perfect 6 there should not have been a way for the AI pilot to detect the right time to switch from straight line flying to evasion maneuver. The AI could realistically only have detected me by the nearing engine sound and I don't think that's doable for an actual human.

[DBFlyguy]

The newest patch today had some nice and welcome changes to other areas but unfortunately the AI is still in dire need of improvement, especially friendly/wingman AI.  I ran several QMB scenarios with 8 Ace friendly AI versus 4 enemy novice AI and guess who won....

 

Friendly AI still can't hit the broadside of a barn and usually just spends their entire ammo load shooting in the general area of a bandit and has little to no aggressiveness pursuing the enemy AI or evading enemy AI.  The enemy AI seems to always be a few notches above friendly/wingman AI no matter what their skill settings are put at.  I love this sim but this is definitely somewhere there is still tons of room for improvement...

Edited December 16, 2020 by DBFlyguy

[Q_Walker]

I agree with the AI needing to conserve ammo better and there should be a bit of an improvement on their accuracy. I'll see a friendly AI following behind an enemy AI in a very slight turn. They will fire a long burst that would hit if they just pulled a little harder on the stick, but they will expend their ammo before they get the chance to land any hits. Even dead on my six in a tight turn they will fire a very long burst that they should know will be unable to hit me, but they are AI. Going to try and work on getting some tracks together to try and help the devs with solving these issues. An improved accuracy and being less wasteful with ammo will be a significant improvement to the AI. I was glad to see this update today that did solve the AI firing at extreme distances though, that is much appreciated.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Q_Walker

[DBFlyguy]

8 hours ago, Q_Walker said:

I agree with the AI needing to conserve ammo better and there should be a bit of an improvement on their accuracy. I'll see a friendly AI following behind an enemy AI in a very slight turn. They will fire a long burst that would hit if they just pulled a little harder on the stick, but they will expend their ammo before they get the chance to land any hits. Even dead on my six in a tight turn they will fire a very long burst that they should know will be unable to hit me, but they are AI. Going to try and work on getting some tracks together to try and help the devs with solving these issues. An improved accuracy and being less wasteful with ammo will be a significant improvement to the AI. I was glad to see this update today that did solve the AI firing at extreme distances though, that is much appreciated.

 

Yeah, this is exactly what I'm seeing.  Friendly AI will do very slight turns behind an enemy AI and jump dump their entire ammo load rarely hitting anything... meanwhile the enemy AI has no issue shooting them down and radio chatter is filled with "I'm wounded...bailing out...." "request landing clearance..." ...

[Q_Walker]

I'm also seeing that enemy AI is able to score more kills as well. I am playing Career so I am wondering if the difficulty we select has a larger affect on the abilities of our AI wingmen compared to the enemy AI abilities. Definitely going to need to test a bit more. So far I have tested on Moderate difficulty, and it still remains an issue.

[LukeFF]

4 hours ago, Q_Walker said:

I'm also seeing that enemy AI is able to score more kills as well. I am playing Career so I am wondering if the difficulty we select has a larger affect on the abilities of our AI wingmen compared to the enemy AI abilities. Definitely going to need to test a bit more. So far I have tested on Moderate difficulty, and it still remains an issue.

 

The difficulty level only affects the AI level of friendly and enemy flights encountered (as well as their density) during the mission. It doesn't have any effect on the AI skill level of the pilots in your squadron. 

Edited December 17, 2020 by LukeFF

[Q_Walker]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

The difficulty level only affects the AI level of friendly and enemy flights encountered (as well as their density) during the mission. It doesn't have any effect on the AI skill level of the pilots in your squadron. 

Ah my mistake then, thank you for clarifying.