Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Solitojorgesoo

Flaps use in combat

Recommended Posts

I wonder if and how flaps were used by fighters at close combat , specially those I fly with or against to, as BF 109, FW 190, Spitfires, P51 and P47.

Thanks 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Flaps in Spitfire are designed to only provide drag and (almost?) no lift.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Solitojorgesoo said:

BF 109, FW 190, Spitfires, P51 and P47.

 

109 sometimes

190 probably never

Spitfire probably never

P-51 sometimes

P-47 probably never

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was just reading a book about the P-51early models. Flaps were regularly used in combat with the P-51, but only if they got in a slow turning circle fight, which was not all that common. Most P-51 dogfights were more hit and run. I think you can count on anything with a manual flap crank handle to not be used in combat. Electric and hydraulic flaps changed that significantly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the P51 case, I use one or two flap points when fighting in tight turns, as in RL it is just an easy handling lever with 4 o 5 positions ,  which  I mapped it to one of my throttle functions.

I wonder if the BF 109 uses it at combat, as it has a more dificult way of handling flaps

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

109 sometimes

190 probably never

Spitfire probably never

P-51 sometimes

P-47 probably never

 

I think this is probably accurate.

 

I've heard at least two stories of a Mustang following a 109 into a right turn and dropping some flap to stay with him just long enough to pull off a shot.

One was J.C. Meyer I think, the other pilot I can't recall.

Risky - loss of speed probably meant it didn't pencil-out, and thus probably didn't happen very much as you indicated.

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With regard to the Mustang they certainly were used.  How often is debatable.  There are at least 30 or more examples on Mike Williams' page alone, and I've read of a number of other cases in other books and articles.  I've read multiple cases where pilots described the first 10 or 20 degrees as "maneuvering flaps" and the speed limits on those first two settings on the Mustang are 400 mph and 275 mph.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

I think this is probably accurate.

 

I've heard at least two stories of a Mustang following a 109 into a right turn and dropping some flap to stay with him just long enough to pull off a shot.

One was J.C. Meyer I think, the other pilot I can't recall.

Risky - loss of speed probably meant it didn't pencil-out, and thus probably didn't happen very much as you indicated.

 

 

I am not discrediting anyone's skills by a long shot. However, by late 1944, the majority of the cream of the Luftwaffe corp were either dead or not allowed to fly due to adequate # of airworthy aircraft required to accompany them. That said, the number differential was so greatly in favor of the allies by late '44 that dropping flaps in a dogfight and sacrificing speed (life) for a probable kill doesn't seem like a bad trade-off. There is safety in numbers!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, JG7_X-Man said:

 

I am not discrediting anyone's skills by a long shot. However, by late 1944, the majority of the cream of the Luftwaffe corp were either dead or not allowed to fly due to adequate # of airworthy aircraft required to accompany them. That said, the number differential was so greatly in favor of the allies by late '44 that dropping flaps in a dogfight and sacrificing speed (life) for a probable kill doesn't seem like a bad trade-off. There is safety in numbers!

 

I would tend to agree, but there was always the odd Ace out there, and the pilots of the time didn't have quite the perspective that we do now in hindsight (most great Luftwaffe pilots dead) at least not to the same extent. Also Meyer remarked that it probably wasn't worth the loss in speed - I can't remember exactly the point on the war when he dropped flaps/made this remark.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Hans Joachim Marsailles regularly used flaps (and I read some other Experten did sporadically) but usually to slow down and avoid an overshoot - not to increase turn performance. 

Edited by Eisenfaustus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Eisenfaustus said:

Hans Joachim Marsailles regularly used flaps (and I read some other Experten did sporadically) but usually to slow down and avoid an overshoot - not to increase turn performance. 

 

That's what I read somewhere, too. Probably to bust a defensive circle.

 

The P-51's first notch of flaps is placarded to 400mph - and pilots would regularily use that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe to have read ones that W. Nowotny in a Fw 190 slowed/manouvred during a dogfight in such a way that the P-39 on his

six passed him and he then shot it down. I think he used flaps for that but this is from the top of my head.

 

It also very much depended on the pilot's experience in mastering his fighter plane.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I would think that if 109 pilot would need to increase drag just to slow down, he would have opened the radiators with one turn of wrist instead of spinning the flaps wheel several rotations back and forth. At least Helmut Lipfert used radiators during landings and IIRC also during combat to slow down.

 

All I'm saying that by/if using flaps The Experten had most likely also the idea to alter their flight envelope. At least in 109, where flaps control was not so easy as Solitojorgesoo points pout.

Edited by Hanu
Clarification

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

The historical use of flaps is a completely different issue from the sim use, even if the sim is 100 % accurate. The question is how much you value your life. Every time you slow down  flaps, radiator or throttle you run a bigger risk. In those situations you need to know exactly what are you doing. And this question is really complicated.

 

The safest and most common use, when the flaps have a big value are the vertical maneuvers, at the top when you slow down anyway. For that reason japanese late planes had authomatic flaps e.g. Kawanishi N1K.

 

Edited by JG27_Kornezov

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 7/15/2020 at 1:44 PM, JG27_Kornezov said:

The safest and most common use, when the flaps have a big value are the vertical maneuvers, at the top when you slow down anyway. For that reason japanese late planes had authomatic flaps e.g. Kawanishi N1K.

That's depending on the flaps system used, .. split flaps type generates more aerodynamic drag than lift, and they impede the aircraft gain speed for recover the stalling or a spin.
People abuse of split flaps in game a lot of with Yaks, La-5 and Spits. That is a total fantasy..
image.thumb.png.a0dfa10ad520eed78114689516a48fae.png

Edited by III/JG52_Otto_-I-

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

That's depending on the flaps system used, .. split flaps type generates more aerodynamic drag than lift, and they impede the aircraft gain speed for recover the stalling or a spin.
People abuse of split flaps in game a lot of with Yaks, La-5 and Spits. That is a total fantasy..
image.thumb.png.a0dfa10ad520eed78114689516a48fae.png

Indeed but this fantasy is true not only in this game, it comes way back from the original il2, Warthunder (the same), DCS is not very different. (No idea about cliffs of Dover.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, JG27_Kornezov said:

Indeed but this fantasy is true not only in this game, it comes way back from the original il2, Warthunder (the same), DCS is not very different. (No idea about cliffs of Dover.)

That is because operating the flaps out of the Vfo have not consequences in this game.
By the way, if i remember correctly in IL2-46 the flaps jamming occurs when exceeding Vfo, this was modelled properly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/16/2020 at 4:11 PM, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

That is because operating the flaps out of the Vfo have not consequences in this game.
By the way, if i remember correctly in IL2-46 the flaps jamming occurs when exceeding Vfo, this was modelled properly.

 

They also jam in the current IL2. 

Btw, IRL, if your VFE/VFO is 200km/h, that doesn't mean they will jam at 201km/h, of course. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/19/2020 at 10:54 AM, JG300_Faucon said:

 

They also jam in the current IL2. 

Btw, IRL, if your VFE/VFO is 200km/h, that doesn't mean they will jam at 201km/h, of course. 

Yes of course, but yes at 250 kph, ...and probably, if you are in a "vicious spin" (typical issue documented in P-51, P-39, or Hurricane,etc) you would not able to gain enough speed for recover the spin, with those flap jammed down, because drag generated.. at low altitude your dead is guaranteed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Pneumatic flaps in game don't jam as they are pushed forward by the airflow, there has been discussion on wether it would happen or not IRL but seems to be dependent on each design. The hydraulic flap systems in game can be jammed with overspeed. At least Greg made a video about the Wildcat and it mentions this behaviour of it's pneumatic flaps getting retracted at high speeds avoiding damage.

That being said, I know at least the case of the MiG-21 that has hydraulic flap system, but these flaps do not have a speed limit, if deployed while going too fast they get pushed up without damage to the system (PF and bis variants at least).

The La-5 shown in the post above does have it's flaps jammed, the speed seems variable, between 470 to 500 km/h full flaps will jam, at 50% deployment they will hold up to about 650 km/h or so.

Other planes have it as well, the Bf 109 F-4 gets it's full flaps jammed in between 650 to 680 km/h, the K-4 around 640 km/h, the Fw 190As at around 540 km/h, the Dora at around 610 km/h. P-51 at around 380 km/h, P-47 around 400 km/h, P-38 around  380 km/h as well. In the Tempest I can't reach the jamming speed with flaps, it tops out at around 500 km/h in a 90º dive by the time I hit the ground

Edited by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...