Any plans to revise the command interface?

[Skeleboners]

First and foremost, I'd like to make it clear that I understand Tank Crew is still in development- I'm hoping the concerns I raise are known and there are plans to address them before full release. However, we do seem to be entering into the latter stages of development, so I feel it's appropriate to voice them.

 

The command interface- that is, the menu brought up by the tilde key by default- is really clunky and ill-suited to armored combat. If I'm not mistaken, it's an extension of the same menu used to command gunners on bombers and the like on aircraft, and it may work there where it's something you may touch once or twice in a mission, but for Tank Crew where- if you're playing as tank commander for an AI-crewed tank, it'll be used for basically every action in the tank, it's really not up to the task.

 

But hey, just saying it's clunky doesn't really get much across. So, an example- I'm driving along in whatever tank, let's say it's a Panzer IV, but really any vehicle with a distinct gunner and commander position (i.e. not the T-34) works for this. I see an enemy AT gun position up ahead, and want my gunner to engage it. So, I have to press the tilde key, mouse over the gun position (no easy task as the tank rolls over terrain), press the function key to tell my gunner to attack it, press another function key to tell him what ammo to use, and then one final key to direct that order at my crew specifically rather than the other tanks in my platoon. If I want my gunner to fire from a short halt, I have to re-enter the tilde menu, press the function key for fire control, another key for fire from short halt, then another to direct that order to my crew. Then I have to re-enter the tilde menu yet again, press the function key for movement, press the key to order my driver to stop, and the key to direct that order to my own tank. Once the shot is out, I'll need to command my driver to move again, as there doesn't seem to be a short halt command in the  menu as far as I can see.

 

Using that same example, each command I make is given as a radio message, at times quite verbose read without any real sense of urgency, and my crew won't take action until that message is read in its entirety. That in and of itself is fine- I don't think either power on the Eastern Front was fielding psychic tank commanders so they logically should be telling their crew what to do with words, but the issue comes when there are other vehicles (be they tanks or aircraft) speaking on the radio as well. Let's say I saw that AT gun because it put a shot into tank number two of my platoon. Number two is now yelling on the radio about how his engine won't keep up, while number three is giving a contact report for the AT gun to the front. Every order I began after they started talking on the radio is put on hold until those radio messages are read out, meaning my tank is effectively paralyzed and locked into my last order until we clear comms.

 

All of this makes playing Tank Crew from the tank commander's position quite frustrating. I'm fully aware there is the option to swap over into the gunner's seat to engage that AT gun myself, or into the driver's seat to move into cover personally, but that kind of defeats the purpose of playing as the tank commander and it's not an issue that the functionality to give these commands isn't there, it's just that it needs another pass, in my opinion. I'd like to see commands that are likely to be given in the heat of the moment- simple movement commands, ordering the gunner to fire at whatever he's currently targeting, things like that- to be bound to hotkeys, the radio messages for them truncated as much as possible, and for commands to your own tank to not be held up by comms traffic from other vehicles. I'd also like to see another pass on the mouse controls for specifying targets for your gunner- as it is, the click zone for them is far too small, you're kind of just out of luck if you're crossing terrain and want to tell your gunner to lay onto something before you halt the tank. It also seems like you can't designate targets or areas you want your driver to move to through binoculars, but I'm hoping that's a bug.

 

And to reiterate, I understand this game is still in development. Best case scenario, someone tells me there are already plans to rework the command menu. But it's not a problem I really see brought up that often, so I figure it's better to say my concerns and be told they're already known than to stay quiet.

 

Also while I'm here, can we maybe get poses for the unbuttoned TCs where they're just peeking up above the turret roof instead of standing like they're parading through Red Square? That's the most minor nitpick imaginable but hey, no point making a second thread, lol.

 

 

[LachenKrieg]

This is a great start for raising discussion on what I believe is one of TC's most interesting and yet possibly least developed features. Thanks for sharing.

 

And I agree, I think clunky describes the current state of the command interface well. While it works, and I am really enjoying having this feature, the interface could definitely use a little more thought on how to streamline at least common commands. Even with the current number of commands available, drilling down into the command tree is cumbersome. And this can only get worse if/when more functionality is added. It takes 4+ key strokes to tell a crew/tank things like stop and hold its position for example, or to move forward. In the heat of the battle, the time it currently takes to navigate the command tree will likely caused the tank to drive right past a position of cover and into the line of fire.

 

The result of a command should not be instantaneous, but it shouldn't be extraneous either. I should be able to give my driver an order over his intercom headset, and he should acknowledge and carry it out. Maybe as a starting point, the Devs could come up with a way to separate commands you give your crew from the commands you give other tanks in your platoon to eliminate one key stroke. I have heard others here suggest using a popup command wheel type interface, and your suggestion to use hotkeys for more common commands might also be useful to streamline things. 

 

That being said, the speed with which I am able to navigate the command tree has improved somewhat through memorization alone. So the amount each player makes use of it also affects interface performance. And I am sure that I haven't been able to test it out in all possible scenarios, but the other thing I have noticed is behavior of the simulator is dependent on the order or sequence you give your commands. This is neither good, or bad, but simply stresses that the player should familiarize himself/herself with its use. For example, if you give the turn and stop command while moving, which has a completely different behavior from the turn command, your tank will complete the desired turn to the compass heading you designate using the achievable turning radius of the tank at its current speed. If you give the same command from a stopped position, the tank will turn to the compass heading while in place. Deciding on whether to stop your tank before giving the turn and stop command will greatly affect how your tank is positioned after your order has been carried out.

 

The sequence/order may also be playing a role in the issue you raised with having the gunner fire from short stops. I haven't tried exactly the scenario you gave, but I found when I first give the command to fire at will, followed by fire from short stops, followed by a movement command, the tank will move, stop, fire, and repeat according to the movement command given whether in a forward advance, or reversing out movement. So again, there might be more of a need for the player base to familiarize itself with the interface.

 

And the simulator also seems capable of remembering its last direction of movement. For example, if you give a movement command forward, or backward followed by the stop and hold position followed by a turn command, the tank will start moving again in the same direction it was going before you issued the stop and hold command as it completes your new turn command. I find this sequence of commands to be very useful when I want to finely control my tanks position. I no longer have to issue the move forward/backward command unless I want to change directions. I simply switch between the stop hold position, and the turn commands to reposition my tank.

 

And there are also commands in the tree that don't seem to be active yet. For example, there is a command for "forward observer" that does not seem to do anything. Pressing the assigned function key has no apparent effect. Is this a feature that will be linked to the promised increased functionality of the radio operator? Hard to say, but the name implies that you could have a tank in your platoon carry out a recon mission. I am hoping that is what it means anyway.

 

My last comment is about possible bugs with the command interface. I have noticed that my tank/platoon has become uncontrollable when using the reverse command on several occasions. And more recently during a QM when I as trying to reposition my platoon into a better defensive position, I received an onscreen message that I was leaving the combat zone, to which I ordered the platoon to turn back towards the enemy. All four tanks in the platoon became unresponsive and started turning in circles. So there is probably a little work to be done in the debugging area as well.

[[KG]Destaex]

As a new player. I would like to know if I am supposed to look in the flight sim controls for some of the tank control key mappings?
I don't see a lot of the features I expect to see, like changing gears as the driver or locking tracks, handbrake etc. Each tank would be a different clutch use and have a different number of gears. I do like the way you can drive and shoot as one player though. Game would be impossible without that. But if I want to drive, I would think it would be pretty complex. I don't get to do my own startup and their are no plans for mouse clickable cockpit right?

[LachenKrieg]

In terms of key bindings and which controls do what, yes you should familiarize yourself with both tank and flight controls as some of them do overlap. I am about 3 weeks in and learning all the fine details regarding controls is still a WIP. Regarding gear shifting while driving, this is mapped to the Z/X keys. Works well.

 

While the TC command feature in single player is the best experience I have ever had in a tank sim/game, being able to simulate a single crew with some of your friends while at the same time commanding a platoon would be next level stuff in terms of immersion. I see TC as having a huge potential. In the meantime, its turning out to be a lot of fun.

 

 

[[KG]Destaex]

I take it all the positions except loader can be manned by multiplayer players in a single tank and that multiple tanks can have full crews. That would mean that on a 32 player server, only 4 full tanks per side would be possible.

I assume that if each player manned one tank that it is possible to have 32 tanks ar once all manned by real players on a server. 16 tankd per side?

[LachenKrieg]

That does raise an interesting question. Is the server limit the number of players that can log-on, or is it the number of digital tanks that it has to  draw/represent/keep track of? If it is the former, then one side could have as much as 16 tanks, while the other side could have as little as 4. I have never tried multi-player here so I don't know, but maybe someone that has can tell us.

 

I would also like to see the ability to have friends platoon with you in your tank in single player type missions. That would raise the possibility of commanding not just a tank crew, but a platoon as well.

[[KG]Destaex]

I too would love missions that friends csn join. I imagine this can be done in the mission editor by adjusting or editing existing missions. However playing the campaign with friends and win conditions to the next mission as well as easy join would probably not be possible. In other words I dont think coop campaign is possible?

 

The missions are what sets this game apart from say, post scriptum tanks and the coop and multiplayer is what sets this apart from steel fury and other single player tank sims. So it would be noce to bring both of those elements together in a coop campaign.

Edited July 11, 2020 by [KG]Destaex

[LachenKrieg]

Maybe not the scripted missions, although I think it is more just a question of the effort that would have to go into it. Probably not worthwhile.

 

But in the QMB, it would be great to be able to talk to the other live people in your tank, while using the command interface for the rest of the platoon. From the little I have read about the IL2 mission editor, it seems that you can build a multi-player mission that has all the players on one side attacking AI units. The only change here would be that the 4 players would spawn into the same tank, while the other 3 in the platoon would be friendly AI. Doesn't seem like that much of a stretch. But back to the original topic here, I will be very happy just to see the Devs continue improving the current interface.

[Skeleboners]

Yeah, hearteningly the actual functionality is mostly there, it's just an issue of polishing the way the player interacts with it. While I agree the command shouldn't be instantaneous, if I'm presented with the decision between the delay between order and response we have now and an instantaneous command, I'd rather than the instant one, even from a realism perspective.

 

I've never commanded a tank in real life, let alone one with the quality of radio and communication equipment tanks of the second World War had, but I've done a decent amount of virtual tank commanding with other players crewing my tank in other games, and in my experience once everyone's speaking the same language there's not really that much of a delay due to the actual process of giving and interpreting the command. I've also spent a fair amount of time commanding AI in other games, and while I don't want to devolve this into a "this game did [x] better!" thread, I'll hold Graviteam's Steel Armor: Blaze of War up as the gold standard for commanding AI crew both in your own tank and in other tanks in a platoon in a video game.

 

This also might be a good excuse for me to kick some friends in the butt to get them to pick up TC so I have a gunlayer and a driver to boss around.

 

 

[LachenKrieg]

Agreed, the more I use it, the more I realize that even though it is still in need of some love, I also appreciate how much the Devs have put into it. I am getting reasonably fast at commanding the AI crew in my tank, but where it is still challenging for me is commanding the platoon. Especially when I want individual tanks to perform different actions.

 

 

[104th_IronMike]

I think a real opportunity was missed to connect this to the binoculars. Binoculars should have six basic command functions, and these six would be enough:

1. "fire!" (at wherever the binocs are looking at dead center);

2. "move!" (at wherever the bincos are looking at dead center, full speed)
3. "retreat!" (from wherever the binocs are looking at dead center, in reverse facing the commanded point)
4. "turn!" (to wherever the bincos are looking at dead center, when vehicel is stopped)

5. "cease fire!" (just that)

6. "stop!" (stops the vehicle)
 

(Maybe if one wanted, one could add the same with a 2nd bind for each for the platoon level.)

All the rest can then be done through a more clunky GUI, because some things will never be really not clunky, unless they go for a command rose. The best would be to have everything in a command rose in the binoculars though imo, with a top level, a medium level and a deep level structure.

Inner crew commands from binoculars should be shouted, not radioed, but I would take above four or five commands even without any voice feedback from the commander. Just a reply "verstanden!" or "copy!" would be enough from the crew.

 

Additionally a "fire!" order should always trump a "move!" order, but not cancel it, that means, whenever the gunner is ready to fire, the tank stops, fires, then drives on until reloaded and ready to fire again until target is destroyed or cease fire order is being issued. When target is destroyed or cease fire has been issued, move order continues until move point has been reached or another fire order has been issued. Same for retreat ofc, to be cancelled only by "stop".

Edited July 12, 2020 by 104th_IronMike
added "cease fire" to the list

[[KG]Destaex]

What is the key for binoculars? I imagine it is hidden in the aircraft controls list?

[LachenKrieg]

open = Ltcont + 5,  close = Ltcont + Tilde

[LachenKrieg]

3 hours ago, 104th_IronMike said:

I think a real opportunity was missed to connect this to the binoculars. Binoculars should have six basic command functions, and these six would be enough:

1. "fire!" (at wherever the binocs are looking at dead center);

2. "move!" (at wherever the bincos are looking at dead center, full speed)
3. "retreat!" (from wherever the binocs are looking at dead center, in reverse facing the commanded point)
4. "turn!" (to wherever the bincos are looking at dead center, when vehicel is stopped)

5. "cease fire!" (just that)

6. "stop!" (stops the vehicle)
 

(Maybe if one wanted, one could add the same with a 2nd bind for each for the platoon level.)

All the rest can then be done through a more clunky GUI, because some things will never be really not clunky, unless they go for a command rose. The best would be to have everything in a command rose in the binoculars though imo, with a top level, a medium level and a deep level structure.

Inner crew commands from binoculars should be shouted, not radioed, but I would take above four or five commands even without any voice feedback from the commander. Just a reply "verstanden!" or "copy!" would be enough from the crew.

 

Additionally a "fire!" order should always trump a "move!" order, but not cancel it, that means, whenever the gunner is ready to fire, the tank stops, fires, then drives on until reloaded and ready to fire again until target is destroyed or cease fire order is being issued. When target is destroyed or cease fire has been issued, move order continues until move point has been reached or another fire order has been issued. Same for retreat ofc, to be cancelled only by "stop".

Have you tried hitting the Tilde key while looking through the Binoculars?

 

I know the command window opens from both the F1 and F2 views as long as you are in the commanders position, but I never tried it while looking through the binoculars. I will have to try it next time. If it doesn't work, it would be great to have it as you suggested for when you are viewing from the open hatch, but I wouldn't want that as being the only place it works because it would be too easy to lose the commander.

 

I know for certain that the binoculars do not work when the commanders hatch is closed, so the command window would still have to be accessible when you are viewing from inside the tank. 

[Goosevich]

Issuing orders does not work while looking through binos'.

[LachenKrieg]

Does anyone know what the command F6 "forward observer" is for? Is this something that becomes active in multi-player, or is it still a feature waiting to be implemented?

[Voidhunger]

I would really like to have binoculars on the second mouse button (only when you hold that button, when you release second button , you will have standard view)

 

and it would be nice if you can order your platoon with the "crosshair" of your binoculars. move to location, turn to location, order fire to that location, identified targets for the gunner and other tanks in the platoon.

[104th_IronMike]

11 hours ago, Voidhunger said:

I would really like to have binoculars on the second mouse button (only when you hold that button, when you release second button , you will have standard view)

 

and it would be nice if you can order your platoon with the "crosshair" of your binoculars. move to location, turn to location, order fire to that location, identified targets for the gunner and other tanks in the platoon.

 

 

Yep, pretty much what I suggested, and the right mouse button, or at least similar like turret (and also controllable by mouse, dont like binos on track IR tbh) is a great idea, too.


@LachenKrieg you can open the command menu, but it does not work from binos, and you also do not get the red circle, which I find lacking in general, the crosshair of the binos would be best for that.

And agreed, it should not be exclusive, binos should to the contrary have quick command option as we mentioned above. Everything else could then very well stay just as is imo.

[LachenKrieg]

11 hours ago, Voidhunger said:

I would really like to have binoculars on the second mouse button (only when you hold that button, when you release second button , you will have standard view)

That's a good idea. Have you tried mapping your binoculars to the RMB?

[104th_IronMike]

5 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

That's a good idea. Have you tried mapping your binoculars to the RMB?

 

That's possible, but what he means is more like aim down sights where you hold RMB to a-d-s in FPS games for example. Release, and it lowers the weapon (binos) again. And it should be done fairly quickly, just like with rifles in other games, so you can quickly cross check between wide field view and bino view, ideally being able to catch the up/down motion half way. (IRL you would basically lower them only so much that you could peek over them)

Edited July 13, 2020 by 104th_IronMike

[LachenKrieg]

11 hours ago, Voidhunger said:

and it would be nice if you can order your platoon with the "crosshair" of your binoculars. move to location, turn to location, order fire to that location, identified targets for the gunner and other tanks in the platoon.

 

27 minutes ago, 104th_IronMike said:

 

 

Yep, pretty much what I suggested, and the right mouse button, or at least similar like turret (and also controllable by mouse, dont like binos on track IR tbh) is a great idea, too.


@LachenKrieg you can open the command menu, but it does not work from binos, and you also do not get the red circle, which I find lacking in general, the crosshair of the binos would be best for that.

And agreed, it should not be exclusive, binos should to the contrary have quick command option as we mentioned above. Everything else could then very well stay just as is imo.

Agreed, it would be nice to be able to give commands from your binoculars while your patrolling around. One of the challenges of assigning targets (F1)  at the moment is that the commanders view from inside the tank has a lot of dead spots. Being able to assign targets from your binoculars would help with that as long as your quick to close the hatch if need be. But it makes sense that you would be able to give commands from the binoculars since this is one of the commanders main views. I am sure as a new addition, the binoculars just haven't had the feature enabled yet, and I hope that we see this in the near future.

[Skeleboners]

So, regarding the difficulties commanding a tank with an AI driver, I was apparently mistaken as to the function of the autopilot in tanks. I had initially thought to get any AI crew whatsoever, you had to set the driver's position to autopilot, and that would crew the whole vehicle with AI aside from the position you occupied- not sure where I got this idea, but that's how I'd been doing things.

 

As it were, the driver autopilot is JUST for the driver, and the rest of your tank has AI crew manning the stations by default. So, when things get more dynamic than what the current command system can handle (i.e. anything more than a road march), you can just pop into the driver's seat, disable the autopilot, pop back into the TC's position, and drive the tank with the arrow keys while ordering your gunner and the other tanks in your platoon around.

 

It's sub-optimal, as it means the TC's position requires a lot more micro-management of the tank's movement, but it's infinitely preferable to dying because you fat-fingered the "driver, reverse!" command after noticing an enemy AT gun you hadn't seen swinging its barrel onto you. This also may be the most obvious thing in the world, but I'm still leaving it here in case anyone else was laboring under the same impression.

 

As an aside, I went digging through  US Army field manuals (as I can't read German or Russian) trying to see how much my understanding of modern tank crew control deviates from the way it was done back in the second world war. FM17-12 Tank Gunnery specifically has some examples of practice firing drills, and aside from having some different words for a few things it's pretty much the same. Unsure of how the Russians or Germans did it, but at least with respect to US fire control commands, the current radio messages are faaaaar to verbose. Also worth noting is that the real delay in engaging a target should be getting the gunner looking at the same thing the commander (a problem which the Sherman mitigated with the addition of a very forward-thinking commander's override to traverse the turret onto target- kind of hope some of those force multiplying features of the Medium get implemented like the commander's traverse override and the single-axis gyrostabilizer to allow for faster laying from a short halt) which currently isn't a factor in servicing a target with an AI gunner.

[LachenKrieg]

I agree with you. Driving the tank yourself from the commanders position is the easiest for me too. There are so many blind spots when looking out from the commanders view that I am constantly having to adjust my viewing angle to see as much as possible. And if the gunner has the turret looking left, and I see a target locking on from the right, I almost have to use hull traverse to help swing the gun around in time. Giving orders to both the gunner and the driver in time (8+ keystrokes) is a real challenge if not next to impossible. i.e. your likely going to take a hit. Its one of the things that has made the sim so interesting for me. I can go real hardcore and die a lot, make it supper easy, or anything in between.