Damage model still needs serious attention

[TX-Zigrat]

Please see this video. I love WW1 flight simming and am thankful to 777 for making a great simulator and for them trying to keep it going with Flying Circus, but this wing shedding really is a huge problem and is destroying the fun. 

Please see attached video, and the damage log, as well as note the G load when the wings give.

 

 

 

[Tycoon]

You're flying the plane wrong, this is a simulator not arcade crap like warthunder. You and your tactics are the problem, learn to fly correctly.

 

 

The data that is available clearly doesn't contradict the current dm.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2020 by Tycoon

[J99_Sizzlorr]

Uh there is clearly something wrong, you never pulled more than 3G and you had no visible damage to your wings. All wires were attached and there were no bullet holes in your wings. @AnPetrovich you might want to have a look at this.

Edited July 11, 2020 by J99_Sizzlorr

[No.23_Gaylion]

The only problem I see is he could've been pretty high speed when he rolled out or whatever. Would need to see this in a replay though and check the speed. When you're high speed enough you lose wings at lower g's. I see he was in a spiral dive for some time. Might've tried pulling out too hard. 

[BMA_Hellbender]

Differential load on the upgoing (most loaded) wing. It's how you can get the Pfalz to lose its wings by temporarily creating over 10g on one of the wings.

 

 

When it comes to the S.E.5a, slight damage and 3g should do it.

 

As always with these planes, it's better not to dogfight with them at all and attack with overwhelming numbers if you're up against the D.VIIF (at least 2 to 1).

[Zooropa_Fly]

Looked like a hard yank on the stick at speed to me.

Is this all getting too close to reality for some ?

[TX-Zigrat]

The G

18 minutes ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

Looked like a hard yank on the stick at speed to me.

Is this all getting too close to reality for some ?

 

The G load never exceeded 3G, hardly call that a hard yank.

In game I didn't even realize I'd been hit, on the reply you can see the gunner on the halberstadt landed a round or 2 on me I guess between 1:01 and 1:02. 

Hardly what'd I'd call close to realtiy, and further from anything I'd call fun.

 

[No.23_Gaylion]

The faster you go the less g's the wings can take.

 

It doesn't matter if you "yank the stick" or not if you have high speed. Dive a spad fast enough and you can tear the wings off with 1g while BARELY touching the stick.

 

I'm no aeronautical engineer so I can't say whether it's wrong or right. Its where the game is right now and the only options you have playing at this point are:

 

A. Watch your speed almost as much as the enemy and adjust your style the faster you go.

B.  Go get a new plane after any damage taken (that you know of...)

Edited July 10, 2020 by US93_Talbot

[J99_Sizzlorr]

He wasn't at what I call high speed with the S.E.5a. I have a feeling there is something plain wrong right now...

What I can read of his speedo is that he was around 138 mph when it happened which equals around 217 km/h...that just don't seem right...

Edited July 10, 2020 by J99_Sizzlorr

[No.23_Gaylion]

Ah yes, I see that now. Interesting. 

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

1 hour ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

Looked like a hard yank on the stick at speed to me.

Is this all getting too close to reality for some ?

Even if this is closer to reality they need to give us some leeway, We have no way of telling how bad we're hit or how fast we're going or the G's we're pulling, And there's no way we can sit and watch gages while in combat. Flying a real ww1 plane we would be able to feel the G's and the speed we're doing, not sitting on a computer. They just need to dial back the DM some. And get rid of the control damage thing until they figure out how to implement it the right way, not 1 shot and you lose all control. This is a GAME not real life. If it was no one would fly something like that ever. 

[No.23_Gaylion]

I'm going off of memory here and my se5 time is slim, but I think any rough handling after 140mph is wing ripping.

[J99_Sizzlorr]

Quote

The aircraft had considerable structural strength, which was credited with improving the type's crashworthiness and survivability. It could also withstand high-g manoeuvres and was relatively resistant to battle-damage.

 

Source: Wiki which citates Nijober and Patterson 2016 p.20. (Fighting Cockpits in the Pilot's Seat of Great Military Aircraft from World War I to Today)

 

What I see here doesn't match what I read there...

Edited July 10, 2020 by J99_Sizzlorr

[No.23_Gaylion]

You weren't there™

 

Should we take this to that SE5 thread or did it get closed too?

[J99_Sizzlorr]

2 minutes ago, US93_Talbot said:

You weren't there™

 

Should we take this to that SE5 thread or did it get closed too?

I think we shoudn't mix up flight and damage model here...

I know I wasn't there and the quote aren't my words. Just some other dudes which weren't there... 

Edited July 10, 2020 by J99_Sizzlorr

[No.23_Gaylion]

Well, "we" have been complaining about the se5 wings for awhile. I'm sure it was mentioned in that thread.

 

When we bring it up we are chastised for flying our fake planes too hard. 

 

Ah well.

 

Someone at their PC should go get the se5 in a 140mph spiral dive at 3g and see what happens when you try to pull out of it or whatever. I'm not able to at this point.

 

Its been well noted the parser is not 100% accurate or helpful.

 

"You werent there" wasn't a dig at you, friend. ?

Edited July 10, 2020 by US93_Talbot

[J99_Sizzlorr]

8 minutes ago, US93_Talbot said:

"You werent there" wasn't a dig at you, friend. ?

I know I didn't take it as such...?

[Cynic_Al]

23 minutes ago, US93_Talbot said:

Someone at their PC should go get the se5 in a 140mph spiral dive at 3g and see what happens when you try to pull out of it or whatever. I'm not able to at this point

 

I find those conditions perfectly survivable.  It should be remembered that an indicated 138mph is just about achievable in level flight at zero feet, provided the mixture is peaked and the engine is up to temperature.  Could today's update have been a reaction to this, or did it come earlier?

[Tycoon]

 

 

 

 

 

Right when it hits 140 I pull the stick all the way back immediately, full deflection. Just touches 7.6 gs.

Edited July 11, 2020 by Tycoon

[J99_Sizzlorr]

4 minutes ago, Cynic_Al said:

 Could today's update have been a reaction to this, or did it come earlier?

 

Nope nothing changed in this regard... this is the fix list:

 

Quote

We just published a hotfix:

-The bug that caused the coaxial MG of a tank to stuck in a reloading state when its ammo is spent has been fixed;

-Numerous ammo type changes for the main gun won't cause repeated reloading;

-Firing the last round in an MG by a short trigger click won't cause the next magazine to load twice;

-Pz.Kpfw.III Ausf.M bow MG has correct firing effects;
-Double image fixed on “Hart” skin for P-47D-22;

-The default view position and predefined snap views on P-47D-22 have been corrected;

-'Shimmering' of the Novorossiysk harbor when viewed from far and medium distances has been minimized;

-Framerate in windowed mode is no longer capped at 60 Hz on some configurations if the display supports a higher refresh rate;

-When joining a multiplayer server in VR you should see the plane hangar correctly (and not from outside);

-A hole in the Sd.Kfz.184 driver hatch has been removed;

-The bug that caused AI-controlled fighters flying with offensive tactics (Low task setting in Mission Editor) to ignore enemy targets;

-The distance (and time) an AI-controlled fighter can deviate from its route to pursue a target has been reduced and now depends on the AI skill level;

-A random AI bug that could potentially cause an application crash has been fixed.

 

[No.23_Gaylion]

Good. We've established he wasn't jerkin it too hard....

[Tycoon]

And confirmed what we already knew, a few stray bullets takes away 4 gs of durability.

[J99_Sizzlorr]

14 minutes ago, Tycoon said:

And confirmed what we already knew, a few stray bullets takes away 4 gs of durability.

Yep 1% of battle damage and 4Gs are gone that isn't in line with the S.E.5a beeing relatively resistant to battle-damage.

[No.23_Gaylion]

 

 

16 minutes ago, Tycoon said:

And confirmed what we already knew, a few stray bullets takes away 4 gs of durability.

 

Survey says!?

 

W E L C O M E   T O   T H E   C L U B.

 

 

Edited July 11, 2020 by US93_Talbot

[Tycoon]

4 minutes ago, US93_Talbot said:

 

 

 

Survey says!?

 

W E L C O M E   T O   T H E   C L U B.

 

 

 

Hey you were the one who asked for proof.?

[Cynic_Al]

In all the dialogue there has been about airframe durability, I don't recall any discussion regarding progressive weakening.  Just because a new plane survives Xg on one occasion, shouldn't mean that it will do so repeatedly, particularly with a timber airframe.  Surely this must be modelled to some extent.

[J99_Sizzlorr]

3 minutes ago, Cynic_Al said:

In all the dialogue there has been about airframe durability, I don't recall any discussion regarding progressive weakening.  Just because a new plane survives Xg on one occasion, shouldn't mean that it will do so repeatedly, particularly with a timber airframe.  Surely this must be modelled to some extent.

Try it our for yourself then. You can pull Tycoons maneuver all the time with the S.E.5a if you haven't been hit by 3 bullets that is...There is no progressive weakening moddeled in the game right now.

[Tycoon]

2 minutes ago, Cynic_Al said:

In all the dialogue there has been about airframe durability, I don't recall any discussion regarding progressive weakening.  Just because a new plane survives Xg on one occasion, shouldn't mean that it will do so repeatedly, particularly with a timber airframe.  Surely this must be modelled to some extent.

I don't know if it's modeled, I mean even if it was no one can deny that certain planes have an uncanny ability to lose wings as soon as a few hits occur.

 

Seriously are people still trying to defend this? It seems pretty night and day at this point. 

[No.23_Gaylion]

10 minutes ago, Tycoon said:

Hey you were the one who asked for proof

 

No, no, no, welcome to the club OP.

 

What we've been complaining about since forever.

 

Same team!

7 minutes ago, J99_Sizzlorr said:

Try it our for yourself then. You can pull Tycoons maneuver all the time with the S.E.5a if you haven't been hit by 3 bullets that is...There is no progressive weakening moddeled in the game right now.

 

It think there is. Maybe larner mentioned it in one of the mega DM threads back when we were testing this and that.

 

I know I've read it. 

[J99_Sizzlorr]

8 minutes ago, US93_Talbot said:

It think there is. Maybe larner mentioned it in one of the mega DM threads back when we were testing this and that.

 

I know I've read it. 

I want proof ?

[No.23_Gaylion]

If you do this maneuver closer to 145mph, off they go.

 

I just did it a few times. 

 

 

1 minute ago, J99_Sizzlorr said:

I want proof ?

 

I concede. I'm not digging through that hell hole haha

[Tycoon]

2 minutes ago, US93_Talbot said:

If you do this maneuver closer to 145mph, off they go.

 

I just did it a few times. 

 

 

 

 

At what G?

Edited July 11, 2020 by Tycoon

[No.23_Gaylion]

Wait one. Lemme check. Trying to snag a video but Radeon is being stupid.

[J99_Sizzlorr]

Victory is mine then ?

 

In all seriousness I don't think stuff like progressive weakening is modelled. Its just that speed factors in when it comes to diffrent g loads and losing wings.

Edited July 11, 2020 by J99_Sizzlorr

[No.23_Gaylion]

4 minutes ago, Tycoon said:

At what G?

 

Looking like 3/4. Get to 145mph and ill admit I'm pulling the stuck back pretty hard, halfway maybe? But definitely 145.

 

2 minutes ago, J99_Sizzlorr said:

Victory is mine then ?

 

In all seriousness I don't think stuff like progressive weakening is modelled. Its just that speed factor in when it comes to diffrent g loads and losing wings.

 

I remember larner getting wing damage and doing loops to put g's on it.

[Tycoon]

Just tested and you're right they come off at 145, but again this is at max deflection ( or almost ), even at 150 I was still able to get over 6G by not pulling all the way. And to me at least in the original video the plane isn't jerked around that much.

Edited July 11, 2020 by Tycoon

[No.23_Gaylion]

It really depends on how much you ease into it. Maybe he was closer to 150 when he pulled back? Either way he had wing damage and was very close to the zone of wing break.

 

YMMV

 

Also note the techno chat said "g limit reached" (3 g)  and then "don't pull the stick too much" then break

Edited July 11, 2020 by US93_Talbot

[Tycoon]

11 minutes ago, US93_Talbot said:

It really depends on how much you ease into it. Maybe he was closer to 150 when he pulled back? Either way he had wing damage and was very close to the zone of wing break.

 

YMMV

I know what you're saying, but I don't think the speed would have been much faster than 140, once the wings go off the plane keeps going straight and down, just guessing though.

 

Let's keep in mind this guy was one of, if not the best se5 pilot in ROF, if anyone knows how to fly the plane right it's him.

Edited July 11, 2020 by Tycoon

[No.23_Gaylion]

Yeah but he pulled up and leveled off sort of right after, you know? Well, exactly like benders pfalz.

 

Not questioning his skills either. Shit happens man.

 

Regardless, watching that video I agree he doesn't seem too fast.

 

Wish we had a track recording to dissect instead. 

 

In regards to the damage itself, all they have to say is "you're just one of the unlucky ones at the low end of the damage probability spectrum tool thing" and they will be correct.

Edited July 11, 2020 by US93_Talbot

[J99_Sizzlorr]

5 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

...

Is this all getting too close to reality for some ?

If that was reality Werner Voss would have shot down the whole B flight of No 56 Sqn on the 23rd of September 1917