Closed

[longjap]

33 minutes ago, Niiranen-VR said:

What I mean - no problem for me ( and guess many others ) that pay monthly $ for some extra would be  no problem 

 

The problem is with this type of business model that you exclude all the (young) folks who can't afford another subscription.

Next to that, part of the joy for me at least; is actually owning the software and not having the idea to only rent it for the coming month.

 

 

 

[NiiranenVR]

55 minutes ago, longjap said:

exclude all the (young) folks

Yes  , I understand that - and what I mean / suggest is that you shall not pay more - you have the game as it is and shall not pay more .....

But ppl who can afford pay some extra to the bumber project , or for a server to have personally skins or other things ..

I don't want you to pay more / but I'm willing to pay more for some extra 

[ZachariasX]

1 hour ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

if it was we would not have a new dlc every second year but in every 20 year

It takes Jasons crew about a year to make a simple plane. The other guys need four years for the same plane. With clickpits though.

 

You have more dlc if you put more people to work in parallel. This is what's happening and why you don't wait 20 years.

[Lusekofte]

6 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

With clickpits though.

I specific noted not click pits

But it is all just theory. As many stated this topic should never been made. 
For many reasons , but for me the reasons are. 
Single player: only a few scripted campaigns intrigue me

coop: PAtrick Wilson is the only thing keeping me playing and the upcoming bon plane set curiosity. 
MP: no longer of any interest. 
So I guess I am desperate. 

[CanadaOne]

7 minutes ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

I specific noted not click pits

But it is all just theory. As many stated this topic should never been made. 
For many reasons , but for me the reasons are. 
Single player: only a few scripted campaigns intrigue me

coop: PAtrick Wilson is the only thing keeping me playing and the upcoming bon plane set curiosity. 
MP: no longer of any interest. 
So I guess I am desperate. 

 

Yeah, I hear you.

 

For my part it's @LukeFF, through the accumulated wisdom of his input, that has inspired me to spend 90% of my flightsim dollars elsewhere. 

 

I was going to spend more money here, but LukeFF convinced me that spending hundreds of dollars on "the other sim" and about $30 here was a better choice. So that's where the money went.

 

Money well spent. 

[ZachariasX]

1 hour ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

So I guess I am desperate. 

If flying is what you are concerned about most, A2A Simulation has an outstanding Connie and a B377 that fearture all career stuff plus persistent airplane state. If you have FSX or P3D, they are great value.

[Lusekofte]

8 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

If flying is what you are concerned about most, A2A Simulation has an outstanding Connie and a B377 that fearture all career stuff plus persistent airplane state. If you have FSX or P3D, they are great value.

Yes I believe I will. Thanks. 

[AndytotheD]

I don’t know if it was mentioned here, but the Bf 109K for the other sim had $120,000 USD dropped on it for the flight model alone

[76IAP-Black]

1 hour ago, AndytotheD said:

I don’t know if it was mentioned here, but the Bf 109K for the other sim had $120,000 USD dropped on it for the flight model alone

Uh really, damn ?

[Lusekofte]

7 hours ago, Niiranen-VR said:

It would be no problem for me to spend extra 5- 10 $ per month to the game if they have something extra to use .... Could be bombers / skinservers or other stof 

This is a idea, I just find no way to get recon planes seaplanes transports economical feasible. If U2 and JU 52 was not 

[Gambit21]

9 hours ago, Niiranen-VR said:

 

What I mean - no problem for me ( and guess many others ) that pay monthly $ for some extra would be  no problem 

 

 

 

Umm...no.

Thousands of wallets would clamp shut immediately. Horrible idea.

I use Photoshop CS5 because I refuse to pay into their subscription model.

[unlikely_spider]

13 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Umm...no.

Thousands of wallets would clamp shut immediately. Horrible idea.

I use Photoshop CS5 because I refuse to pay into their subscription model.

I know it's a different market - but since you brought up the comparison, hasn't Adobe's stock price quadrupled since they retired the non-subscription model?

[RedKestrel]

26 minutes ago, unlikely_spider said:

I know it's a different market - but since you brought up the comparison, hasn't Adobe's stock price quadrupled since they retired the non-subscription model?

Possibly. But stock prices are based largely on the exuberance of investors. So Adobe might look great to an investor who thinks "Hey, they have a steady revenue stream now!" but doesn't necessarily know how the customer base feels about it or whether that model is actually translating into more sales.
 

[unlikely_spider]

6 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

Possibly. But stock prices are based largely on the exuberance of investors. So Adobe might look great to an investor who thinks "Hey, they have a steady revenue stream now!" but doesn't necessarily know how the customer base feels about it or whether that model is actually translating into more sales.
 

Two and a half years... that's what... 10 earnings reports?

 

Edit - or has it been three and a half years? My math skills are why I'm not an accountant. That would be 14 earnings reports.

Edited July 8, 2020 by unlikely_spider

[RedKestrel]

1 minute ago, unlikely_spider said:

Two and a half years... that's what... 10 earnings reports?

Well it worked out for them. Commercial/Enterprise software is something of a different beast - they probably lost a bunch of people like Gambit who felt screwed by the decision but made up for it by having higher consistent earnings due to the monthly subscription. It's something companies can do when they're the industry standard, since it costs actual money to switch over and retrain people, so unless the competition is light-years better AND cheaper companies don't switch. 

 

I think it would be bad for the game, I think the company works better when it has a product it has to sell that it can focus on, not on producing perks for subscribers (which it inevitably devolves into, as the revenue stream becomes more important) But it does seem gamers are largely content to be gouged by microtransactions and fluff packed into DLC, or predatory gacha games. Maybe it would work out. I'd probably move on, though, if it became required and the game went in the wrong direction for me.

 

 

[AndytotheD]

6 hours ago, 76IAP-Black said:

Uh really, damn ?

I should also say the 109K may not be the best example; I have absolutely no idea why they chose that plane, the only performance data I've ever been able to find for it was a single chart. They effectively would have had to generate all the performance data with very little to compare it to. That means a lot more time trying to get it right and fine-tune it. 

[flagdjmetcher]

Re subscription models:  perceptions of acceptable pricing are pretty much detached from reality or consistency.  I know people who were outraged by the Photoshop move to subscription - yet happily shell out for Netflix, Spotify, and their super-size-me phone plan.  And then there's the people who complain about game prices in the $50-100 range and avidly wait for sales and specials - and then blow all of that and more on a weekly basis on booze and drugs and partying and uber-eats deliveries.  When they're not buying gold and premium content on their favourite pay-to-win game.  Which is their choice, but it doesn't fly well with the mock outrage at game pricing.

 

Point is, I'd hate to be a game developer trying to navigate the total irrationality of consumer price perceptions.

 

Speaking as a software developer, if you wanted me to develop something as big and complex as a new plane for you, my first priority would be to make sure you understand what you're asking for and what it's worth to you.  My second priority is to establish whether you are a trustworthy entity.  These are non-trivial tasks that I'm not getting paid for.  The reason it's important is that if you decide at any point that you're aggrieved, you will eat my entire profit and more just in arguing about silly crap.  It doesn't matter how "iron-clad" (lawyers will chuckle into their Armani sleeves at this) the contract is.  You will still put me out of business just in the process of having my lawyers explain the contract to you - again.

So, someone turning up at the door waving cash and begging me to take it is actually a business risk for me.  For a small business, it's possibly an existential threat.  It's one every business has to navigate every day, but we do so very, very carefully.

[AndyJWest]

10 minutes ago, flagdjmetcher said:

...

My second priority is to establish whether you are a trustworthy entity.  These are non-trivial tasks that I'm not getting paid for.  The reason it's important is that if you decide at any point that you're aggrieved, you will eat my entire profit and more just in arguing about silly crap.  It doesn't matter how "iron-clad" (lawyers will chuckle into their Armani sleeves at this) the contract is.  You will still put me out of business just in the process of having my lawyers explain the contract to you - again.

...

 

The voice of experience?

 

Not been there, myself, but I've seen this sort of thing happen. Someone wanders in, waving a big cheque, conditional only on you changing your entire business model just to suit their wishes. Rarely ends well...

[Lusekofte]

1 hour ago, flagdjmetcher said:

My second priority is to establish whether you are a trustworthy entity. 

I m not trustworthy, not at this point. 
I love this game, flying in VR 

Its gameplay however in MP and most SP content. Does not accommodate my needs for a hobby. 
Now before any attack this statement, it is not me saying something is done wrong. I just say it does not suit me. But is probably right. 
Trustworthy? No I cannot at this point finance such a task by myself. Just started a business financed by selling most of my stocks.  Still not sure if I have to spend more savings on it. 
But I wish , no dream this team could build me something. What they do, they do good

Edited July 9, 2020 by 216th_LuseKofte

[zdog0331]

I think DCS would be the better people to talk to for this kind of a project.  With their business model they have allowed others to do the actual development work and sell the module.  They are in a way like steam where they have a platform and others can use to to sell their products with some initial finantical agreement which could be liscensing or even just we get x% of what you make in sales.  There are multiple studios putting out modules for that game.  Though I do have my issues with DCS which is why I spend my time here instead. 

 

I mean depending on what the work entails i could use my connections to the Erickson Aircraft collection to get some detailed immages from both inside and outside planes with size reference objects if not an outright laser scan, but that may not be where the majority of costs come from.  I mean those aircraft fly so for the price per hour which for most aircraft is 4-8 thousand us dollars per hour of flight for the maintenance.  Not to mention you would need to rent the equipment to take readings.  Luckily the pilots generally don't ask to be paid since they simply enjoy flying those aircraft and want someone to pay for gas and parts.  But you are going to have to pay programmers 3d modelers and other game developers to build the aircraft.  Not to mention a historian which on average is $34 us per hour.  The 3d modeler will run you around $40 us per hour, the programmer which is $50 us per hour and add on other staff that may need to help being an extra 60 dollars per hour.

 

The proper scans i can get you for free, but measurments/data will probibly be around $15K us and the game part may be an extra.  On average the 3d model no texture is 30 hours, but for a detailed version you are looking more at 60 so add another $2400 us and for the programming.  From what i can tell it takes Game developers an average of 900 hours based on self reports for individual projects within games being coding for an asset/level which is what we are looking at for this so that time will be taken by all of the other people involved.  So for that it equates to an additional $36K for the programmer and 45K for 2 other employees.  So that brings an estimated total to $98.4k us which we can estimate at around $100,000 us.  IL2 is a developed game so you are not starting from scratch if you just want an asset.  However do remeber that a high fidelity aircraft is something not intrinsic to the IL2 engine so you will need to do a lot of the Coding work for that one which is where the big bucks come from.  Do also know this would be utilizing connections to get things like aircraft readings and details for minimum costs so that can go up the more experience you get with that aircraft so the price can even go higher.

[BraveSirRobin]

1 hour ago, flagdjmetcher said:

My second priority is to establish whether you are a trustworthy entity.  

 

This is the exact reason that I said he will have to write a very large check just to find out how large a check he'll have to write to get the aircraft that he wants.

 

writing big checks = trustworthy

[Motherbrain]

Il2 BAT pretty much has everything you could want (though sometimes of questionable quality).

 

That and making actual plastic scale model kits of the planes I like. At least I get to actually hold them in my hand. ?

 

 

 

My point is if there is a particular plane that catches your fancy, there are lots of ways to get your fix, all for a lot cheaper then getting a requested plane added to Il2GB I'd imagine.

 

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Motherbrain

[blue_max]

My completely uninformed

7 hours ago, zdog0331 said:

So for that it equates to an additional $36K for the programmer and 45K for 2 other employees.  So that brings an estimated total to $98.4k us which we can estimate at around $100,000 us. 

My guess, informed by general 'how expensive is it to program stuff' but 0 experience with game/sim development was also that a 100k would probably get you most of the way.

[Lusekofte]

Ye I wish this topic closed. It was a stupid one to begin with. My hopes and dreams for it might come little by little in the future. I have quite fun with Ice ring campaign right now. 

[Avimimus]

I think you guys are under-estimating the actual costs. This is especially true when one considers the opportunity costs (mentioned already) of diverting the core programming team, and of producing a product that takes away from easier to market products. Maybe if one was able to pay for advertising in addition to development one could sufficiently boost sales to make it worthwhile.

1 hour ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

Ye I wish this topic closed. It was a stupid one to begin with. My hopes and dreams for it might come little by little in the future. I have quite fun with Ice ring campaign right now. 

 

Perhaps. We should have a discussion sometime about the possible scenarios where it would be reasonable to hope for certain things. Some aircraft are too poorly documented. Others might be hard to make profitable. It is good to temper expectations with some realism.

 

I'd really love a Fw-189... and I suspect the team would eventually get around to it if it would sell. I suspect that overall sales would have to be quite a bit higher in order to make sales of more unusual aircraft sufficiently profitable... basically, they'd need a larger market/consumer base.

 

The other possibility is that sales of less conventional aircraft (e.g. the U-2VS) could be improved by special marketing tailored towards making them interesting to people who wouldn't normally get excited by them. That might take some creativity - though it is likely possible.

[zdog0331]

10 hours ago, blue_max said:

My completely uninformed

My guess, informed by general 'how expensive is it to program stuff' but 0 experience with game/sim development was also that a 100k would probably get you most of the way.

Yep based off of wadges and averages for how long it takes to do stuff.  so a complete guesstimation if you will.  Not very scientific and overestimated and subject to change depending on which game engine and who develops it in which country for what platform.  So yea take my post with a massive 10 lb bag of salt.

Edited July 9, 2020 by zdog0331

[Gambit21]

On 7/8/2020 at 10:11 AM, Gambit21 said:

 

Umm...no.

Thousands of wallets would clamp shut immediately. Horrible idea.

I use Photoshop CS5 because I refuse to pay into their subscription model.

 

Don't know but irrelevant.

 

I hate subscription models for software and will not support them.

[Ribbon]

What is closed?

Nothing is closed until we get flyable b25/26!?

And no to the subscription model!