Discussion of IL-2 Sturmovik: Desert Wings - Tobruk Announcement

[frosen]

1 hour ago, Buzzsaw said:

Team Fusion sees DESERT WINGS - TOBRUK not as a finalized product on release, with no further development, but rather as a product which will see an ongoing development process.

 

So we will be adding a new Weather system later this year after release.

 

In addition, changes to allow the players to control ships and vehicles as part of an integrated air/land/sea environment should arrive shortly after.

 

And we hope to have VR implemented for those who enjoy the 3D experience early in the New Year.

I really like what I hear. VR to the spring or so would be awesome! ? And that you said that it will come to CLOD at the same time is simply amazing ?

Big thanks for all your work these years. I'm sure it's gonna be worth the wait after all.

[ACG_Smokejumper]

3 hours ago, John_Yossarian said:

 

Yes for me too, especially since there isn't a proper SP to be had in CLoD, so the arguement of it being kept apart because of competition is not correct for SP.

 

MP yes they of course compete, and there lies my impression that MP runs things in both CloD and BoX and SP picks out what scraps it can.

 

 

You don't like MP?

[Buzzsaw]

13 minutes ago, DFLion said:

Jason thanks for the pre-release information on 'Desert Wings - Tobruk' and a big thanks to all the team at 'Team Fusion Simulations' for a great effort to get the 'Cliffs of Dover' simulator engine back in the air again with all the exciting new aircraft and map in Desert Wings.

I've  been having a close look at 'Cliffs of Dover - Blitz' lately and revisiting all the aircraft in the game before 'Desert Wings is released. For all the doubters we are so lucky to have access to the best WWII air simulators in the market today with very dedicated people producing them.

As soon as 'Desert Wings - Tobruk' is released for sale, I will be purchasing it and very soon behind the release I will produce some single missions and campaigns. In the meantime I am enjoying making my missions in 'Great Battles'.

DFLion

Thanks for your interest in the game and your mission building!

 

Send me a PM and I'll go into some details.  ?

[ACG_Smokejumper]

5 hours ago, marklar said:

 

I can guarantee they would sell at least one extra copy if this game had VR support. Without it however, I would not even buy it for $10.

 

There are old public images from when Colander got it to sorta work.

As VR is the future I'm confident we will get VR in Cliffs.

 

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21356

 

People should remember this..... It's been done and can be done again. Just need to wait another 2 weeks.

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by ACG_Smokejumper

[Tomi_099]

6 hours ago, II./JG27_Rich said:

It will be part of IL-2 Cliffs Of Dover. It is a totally different sim from BOS BOK BOB et.

Interesting question ..

 

. I don't quite understand it ... the same company or? ...

 

but I wanted the beautiful static models in IL.2 Bos ..

 

Interest is also the hurricanes (Plane) that have been integrated there for years .

. Why do you have to build a new 3D model in IL.2Bos if there is one .

. the only thing is that you may have to rewrite the scripts .. and that is done by a programmer.

 

...What do you think about it ?

Edited July 1, 2020 by Tomi_099

[Guest deleted@210880]

10 minutes ago, ACG_Smokejumper said:

 

You don't like MP?

 

There are masses of threads that 'discuss' the merits of MP vs SP.

 

To be polite enough to answer your question though: MP can provide an umatched level of enjoyment and heart pounding experience, however it requires at least one person flying with you to avoid repeatedly being cannon fodder, a decent server/mission design, a decent connection and uninterupted time to commit (no pause).

 

Crucially the experience can often be completely ruined by the actions of the very thing that is supposed to make the experience better than SP: other people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[II./JG27_Rich]

Yes it is confusing.....IL-2 Cliffs of Dover and IL-2 Desert Wings Tobruk are completely different game engines from IL-2 BOS just like DCS is. IL-2 Cliffs of Dover and IL-2 Desert Wings Tobruk have clickable cockpits and a more  complexed engine management system than BOS but it's not quite as pretty as BOS...Looks great for it's age though!

Edited July 1, 2020 by II./JG27_Rich

[Dagwoodyt]

20 minutes ago, ACG_Smokejumper said:

 

There are old public images from when Colander got it to sorta work.

As VR is the future I'm confident we will get VR in Cliffs.

 

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21356

 

People should remember this..... It's been done and can be done again. Just need to wait another 2 weeks.

 

There is a difference between VR vs getting a 2d image to appear inside a hmd. I do not know which of the two is depicted here.

[Beazil]

I guarantee if this product is not supported by the community you will never see VR for this title or any other development in the series.  

 

Some of you might consider that before using your "the customer is always right" to vote rightiously with your dollar ought to keep that in mind.

Not a threat.  A fact.  Try to remember that when you are kicking a new developer in the nutage on the forum they provide for you to voice your opinions.

*Facepalm*

[Avimimus]

8 hours ago, Jason_Williams said:

Pilots,

 

You can discuss the official Desert Wings Announcement here in this thread.

 

Jason

 

Very exciting to see that it is now officially accepted with a plan for a summer release! I agree with the others that single-player could be better described.

 

Also, I'm surprised that the announcement doesn't play up the (1) that this is the first serious sim modelling North Africa and (2) the historical importance of North Africa (e.g. the number of soldiers who died). There will also be a bunch of unique experiences and never-modeled before aircraft.

 

Is there any barrier to offering a combined package (Cliffs+Tobruk)? For people who are buying the game for the first time. It just seems to make sense to release a full combined addition at some point.

 

Anyway, I hope this succeeds fantastically and I'm very excited!

[FTC_Karaya]

26 minutes ago, Tomi_099 said:

Interesting question ..

 

. I don't quite understand it ... the same company or? ...

 

Same publisher (1CGS) but not the same developer. CloD and Tobruk are developed by Team Fusion Simulations, Great Battles is developed by 777 Studio.

Also I think you are greatly underestimating the amount of work that goes into getting a plane to work in a sim. Building a fancy 3D model is just one part of a long and tedious process.

Edited July 1, 2020 by JG4_Karaya

[No.54_Reddog]

5 minutes ago, JG51_Beazil said:

I guarantee if this product is not supported by the community you will never see VR for this title or any other development in the series.  

 

Some of you might consider that before using your "the customer is always right" to vote rightiously with your dollar ought to keep that in mind.

Not a threat.  A fact.  Try to remember that when you are kicking a new developer in the nutage on the forum they provide for you to voice your opinions.

*Facepalm*

Rofl. New? They've been at this for years. How about the reverse of that? The developer listen to the customer? Sorry but TF have routinely ignored what the largest communities (MP and SP) wanted and done it their way. That's their right. Just as it's the consumers right to spend their money how they want. 

[Beazil]

3 minutes ago, No.54_Reddog said:

Rofl. New? They've been at this for years. How about the reverse of that? The developer listen to the customer? Sorry but TF have routinely ignored what the largest communities (MP and SP) wanted and done it their way. That's their right. Just as it's the consumers right to spend their money how they want. 

Yup.  How about I show up at your work and take a mighty dump on your desk because you know, I'm just voicing my opinion.  You might think I was kind of inconsiderate, but that's ok because I'm your customer.  Sort of.  Because I haven't even bought the product or seen it.  But I know enough because I'm super smart.

Not trying to pick a fight - you can and should do whatever you want.  I'm just throwing you another perspective to consider.

None of these products is / was ever complete on release.  Despite that readily available and public knowledge, I still have to read page after page of self rightous crap from our fellow simmers.  To call it discouraging is an understatement.

Now I could shut up about it, but since this is my place as much as it is yours and since I actually purchase all products on the first week of release, maybe I feel a bit entitled to tell you and your ilk you don't speak for me or the player base as a whole.  But thanks for coming out and telling me how it is.  Maybe when the rest of us support them you can stop by to pick up a copy on sale and bark demands for features at them another time.

 

We good?

Edited July 1, 2020 by JG51_Beazil

[Redwo1f]

Wasn't impressed with Blitz at all...they are going to have to win me over with AI improvement and SP content. -- going to be listening to you guys for honest reviews/comparisons. Hoping for the best.

[Buzzsaw]

20 minutes ago, John_Yossarian said:

 

There are masses of threads that 'discuss' the merits of MP vs SP.

 

To be polite enough to answer your question though: MP can provide an umatched level of enjoyment and heart pounding experience, however it requires at least one person flying with you to avoid repeatedly being cannon fodder, a decent server/mission design, a decent connection and uninterupted time to commit (no pause).

 

Crucially the experience can often be completely ruined by the actions of the very thing that is supposed to make the experience better than SP: other people.

 

Just to let you know... we are also working to make the Cooperative Mission experience an easier and more accessible one.

 

Cooperative Missions are when multiple players fly online what is in effect, a single player mission.  So the opponents can be all AI and one side primarily human player.

 

These were very popular with IL-2 1946.

 

You should also be aware several of the Multiplayer campaigns being built are generally low in human players... with a lot of AI aircraft... which is possible with BLITZ or DESERT WINGS - TOBRUK.

[Rodwonder]

4 hours ago, John_Yossarian said:

 

I know.

 

BoS as it was released, CLoD back in the day, now this,... it just baffles me when apparently the majority of people are SP users.

 

And the truth is I simply won't have the urge to buy this for sime time, why would I when BoX has PWCG.

 

In BoX and across CloD it seems it is more about shiny new planes, and going online than any gaming experience. WoTR know how to do it, but their engine is far too old as it stands for me, PWCG knows how to do it but is doing things out of the goodness of his own heart so it seems (without PWCG BoX would be sorely lacking).

 

90% of a WWII flight sim for me is an open career, it seems TF are of a dfferent opinion. The 'problem' is I know I can get more hours of SP fun in other games for that price and that is what I will most likely end up spending my money on. I would pay the $70 for a single aircraft with an engaging SP open campaign, but that doesn't seem to be the marketable thing these days I guess.

 

 

I'll ditto this sentiment... I waited till GB had some sort of career I can wait on this too.

[John_The_Bodge]

Looks great. Unfortunately, I'm also a VR only pilot these days - but I will certainly grab it when VR is implemented - looking forward to it.

 

With that in mind, the price is too high to buy now, just in case VR doesn't happen - but I really don't understand the complaints about the price, considering what has been done. You pay this (or more) for a single DCS module which will have endless bugs for years on end, not to mention requiring hardware that hasn't yet been invented to run smoothly. For all the things they've put in this add-on, I think it's very fair.

Edited July 1, 2020 by JD_LincsUK
spellling

[Buzzsaw]

1 hour ago, -IRRE-Genius said:

Hello,

 

Good news to know the near release.

 

Could you explain the list of available aircraft: how many are add to Blitz (60 ?) and how many to Tobruk (40 ?) ?

 

Are you considering sold a pack Blitz+Tobruk ? Actually with Steam promotion Blitz are at 6 EUR but without sold it is 23 EUR => BLITZ+TOBRUK near 83 EUR.

 

I know, you offer many plane but an old game engine without VR...83 EUR are bit hard for newcomers

1C sets the details of pricing not TF... but I believe they will be offering a bundle pack of both BLITZ and DESERT WINGS - TOBRUK.

[Dutch2]

Guys here a video with on the end a BIG listing of all the included planes. I did not count them, but let me guess, if BoX would release an series with that amount of planes it would cost €1000,- and if it was DCS €10000,- despite some negative reactions, I think it is a great buy, only it does not have VR. 

 

[Missionbug]

Great to see we are finally getting close although I was very disappointed not to see the buy button active, tormenting us again, come on guys let it go will you.

 

I am a bit worried about this Steam key thing, what exactly does that do?

 

Blitz is already on my HD and running from Steam, now that is all I use from Steam and I would rather not have to use it at all but such is life, anyway, I always purchase from the store here so is this going to be troublesome?  There seem to still be people struggling with Steam integration, whatever that is, when they use Steam and this site, would Tobruk not just go straight into my existing directory and fire up from there wherever I bought it?

 

 

Take care and be safe.

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.

Edited July 1, 2020 by Missionbug

[Dagwoodyt]

What I think best would be the release of a Blitz 5.0 that would include all the new UI changes that will be present in TF 5.0. If those changes were enough to confirm a more user friendly and bullet-proof UI, then it might make sense to pre-order TF 5.0. Of course such an option is a non-starter because the TFS is too busy readying TF 5.0.

[Froddi_VR]

33 minutes ago, Buzzsaw said:

Just to let you know... we are also working to make the Cooperative Mission experience an easier and more accessible one.

 

Cooperative Missions are when multiple players fly online what is in effect, a single player mission.  So the opponents can be all AI and one side primarily human player.

 

These were very popular with IL-2 1946.

 

You should also be aware several of the Multiplayer campaigns being built are generally low in human players... with a lot of AI aircraft... which is possible with BLITZ or DESERT WINGS - TOBRUK.

 

You have no idea how much i have been missing doing coops! I will buy this sim even if it wasnt included ofcourse! But oh man i have been missing coop missions.

 

great work TF and i hope this will be a big success❤️

 

[keeno]

I've waited a long, long time for this, I'm definately a day one buyer! Thanks to all involved with the development of this sim, it looks amazing.

 

 

[JG7_X-Man]

This is marketing 101! Ways to earn more revenue from an existing product...

 

Methodology:

1. Raise Prices - The elastic nature of pricing suggests a 100% price increase (doubling the price) of a product doesn't necessary mean you are going to lose half your existing customers. Some will not purchase, but some will.
2. Running sales and promotions -  That has been done to CoD to the point of nausea trying to prolong its shelf life.
3. Product improvement - This is the only way to attract new customers

On a different note: I think it's about time the Team Fusion was put on payroll! 

 

Here is my #1 turn off: ...the product requires both Steam and CLOD:Blitz to run. Thus, I will be sitting this one out.

 

Also, the problem of scarcity of resources and the concept of opportunity cost. Since you cannot eat your cake and have it, when Jill and John are working on IL-2 Sturmovik: Desert Wings - TOBRUK (an IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover 10+ year old engine), innovation for the future will be put on the back burner. Hopefully I am wrong but it will happen when deadlines are not met when trying to deliver to much with to little.

 

Why not make "Tobruk" a part of the IL-2 Great Battles series in conjunction with Team Fusion? This way precious time isn't wasted on only prolonging the self life of an old product.

 

I wish you guys the best on this endeavor.

Edited July 2, 2020 by JG7_X-Man

[BladeMeister]

Well, everyone else is B-itching about no VR, no career, no new weather,and splitting up the community when Desert Wings Tobruk hasn't even launched yet, I want to B-itch about something relevant.

Whoever called the Martlet "stubby"

should get the Ban Hammer!!!

Buzzsaw, that is no term of endearment! Stop trying to sherk the responsibility!

Congrats TFS!!! It has been a long hard road, hard to patiently wait anyway, but really, I hope this venture pays handsomely for you all. Thanks to 1C and Jason for imagining the possibility of handing over the source code to TFS. Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think you will be sorry for giving them the chance.  I am a first day purchaser and I can't wait to experience DWT and fly my non-stubby Martlet over the Med and rip up some 109s with my .50 cals. My imagination is running wild-cat. Now, if I could just find that Pre-Purchase button? Can't Wait!!!

 

S!Blade<><

 

Edited July 2, 2020 by BladeMeister

[Froddi_VR]

The Martlet sure looks a little bit stu...?

[BladeMeister]

Hey, Hey! Watch it! Thems fightin words Bubba!

[Dagwoodyt]

10 minutes ago, BladeMeister said:

Well, everyone else is B-itching about no VR, no career, no new weather,and splitting up the community when Desert Wings Tobruk hasn't even launched yet, I want to B-itch about something relevant.

Whoever called the Martlet "stubby"

should get the Ban Hammer!!!

Congrats TFS!!! It has been a long hard road, hard to patiently wait anyway, but really, I hope this venture pays handsomely for you all. Thanks to 1C and Jason for imagining the possibility of handing over the source code to TFS. Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think you will be sorry for giving them the chance.  I am a first day purchaser and I can't wait to experience DWT and fly my non-stubby Martlet over the Med and rip up some 109s with my .50 cals. My imagination is running wild-cat. Now, if I could just find that Pre-Purchase button? Can't Wait!!!

 

S!Blade<><

 

To be accurate, there was substantial prior forum discussion as to the desirability of granting TF access to CloD source code. Oddly, there were many posts to the effect that such access couldn’t possibly be granted. Then, somehow, it happened.

[BladeMeister]

1 hour ago, Dutch2 said:

 only it does not have VR. ....... Here, I fixed it, you forgot your helmet.

 

I saw that Dutch!

 

S!Blade<><

[easterling77]

8 hours ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

They will both run from the same .exe.

 

We’ve worked on campaigns and single missions too, so don’t worry, you’ll have plenty to do offline. 

Ahhhhh you made my day

[Buzzsaw]

35 minutes ago, JG7_X-Man said:

This is marketing 101! Ways to earn more revenue from an existing product...

 

Methodology:

1. Raise Prices - The elastic nature of pricing suggests a 100% price increase (doubling the price) of a product doesn't necessary mean you are going to lose half your existing customers. Some will not purchase, but some will.
2. Running sales and promotions -  That has been do to CoD to the point of nausea trying to prolong its shelf life.
3. Product improvement - This is the only way to attract new customers

On a different note: I think it's about time the Team Fusion was put on payroll! 

 

Here is my #1 turn off: ...the product requires both Steam and CLOD:Blitz to run. Thus, I will be sitting this one out.

 

Also, the problem of scarcity of resources and the concept of opportunity cost. Since you cannot eat your cake and have it, when Jill and John are working on IL-2 Sturmovik: Desert Wings - TOBRUK (an IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover a 10+ year old engine), innovation for the future will be put on the back burner. Hopefully I am wrong but it will happen when deadlines are not met when trying to deliver to much with to little.

 

Why not make "Tobruk" a part of the IL-2 Great Battles series in conjunction with Team Fusion? This way precious time isn't wasted on only prolonging the self life of an old product.

 

I wish you guys the best on this endeavor.

You can pick up BLITZ right now for $6.24:

 

https://il2sturmovik.com/store/cliffs-of-dover/

 

TOBRUK will be available in the first week for under $60.

[BladeMeister]

1 hour ago, JG51_Beazil said:

Yup.  How about I show up at your work and take a mighty dump on your desk because you know, I'm just voicing my opinion.  You might think I was kind of inconsiderate, but that's ok because I'm your customer.  Sort of.  Because I haven't even bought the product or seen it.  But I know enough because I'm super smart.

Not trying to pick a fight - you can and should do whatever you want.  I'm just throwing you another perspective to consider.

None of these products is / was ever complete on release.  Despite that readily available and public knowledge, I still have to read page after page of self rightous crap from our fellow simmers.  To call it discouraging is an understatement.

Now I could shut up about it, but since this is my place as much as it is yours and since I actually purchase all products on the first week of release, maybe I feel a bit entitled to tell you and your ilk you don't speak for me or the player base as a whole.  But thanks for coming out and telling me how it is.  Maybe when the rest of us support them you can stop by to pick up a copy on sale and bark demands for features at them another time.

 

We good?

Wow, just WOW! Couldn't have said it better myself, and you were way more polite than I would have been.  A very Real World Common Sense Response Sir. Nice. Up-vote earned.

 

This! +1

5 hours ago, Jason_Williams said:

So this is not a thread about comparing products. Take that elsewhere. Desert Wings is worth the price offered and TFS deserves to make some money off of all their effort and good work. Day One price is just $59.49 with the 15% Off discount. I would hope some of you in here, after all the trials and tribulations this hobby has gone through, have some perspective.

 

If you can afford Desert Wings I highly suggest you pick it up. Having options to fly sims is a good thing and DW is fun to fly.

 

Adopting VR to the CLOD engine takes some effort, being overly negative and discouraging others from buying is a sure fire way for it to never happen.

 

TFS is well aware of the desire of VR.

 

Jason

[Buzzsaw]

For those Martlet lovers, I would recommend they check out the following link to the history of the aircraft in Fleet Air Arm use as well as many quotes from Captain Eric "Winkle" Brown.

 

He always said it was his favourite aircraft of WWII, but in that article you will find a quote with another pilot using the term "Stubby".

 

And I know he also used the term in his books, although I can't find the quote now.

 

https://www.armouredcarriers.com/grumman-f4f-martlet-variants

 

Far be it for me to disagree with the master.

 

Embrace your heritage!  ?

[I/JG54_chuishan]

32 minutes ago, Buzzsaw said:

For those Martlet lovers

 

I'm a bit curious, will the Martlet in the DW has a functional arresting hook? Or it will just be removed for land-based operation?

Edited July 2, 2020 by I/JG54_chuishan

[Mr_Steven]

The only sim left that has Oleg Maddox' magic touch in it's soul.

 

You can feel it, and when you become proficient in it, all else feels hollow and lifeless. If you love combat flight simulators, you'd have to be a complete fool to not get real deep into this one.

 

 

[BladeMeister]

The CO, Lieutenant Commander John Wintour gave a much more dignified description of the Martlet Buzzsaw!

And I quote CO Wintour "When we came to try her for ourselves she turned out to be a tough, fiery, beautiful little aeroplane!" Not 'stubby!'

To Heck with Cpt. Eric 'Winkle' Brown's description!

 

20 minutes ago, Buzzsaw said:

If we go on to add Carrier Operations then you can be sure we'll have the version of the Martlet with both.

YYYYEEEEEEESSSSSSS!!!!

S!Blade<><

Edited July 2, 2020 by BladeMeister

[Buzzsaw]

13 minutes ago, I/JG54_chuishan said:

 

I'm a bit curious, will the Martlet in the DW has a functional arresting hook? Or it will just be removed for land-based operation?

The version used in the desert did not have folding wings or an arresting hook as the original customer, i.e. Greece, ordered the aircraft without them... that country did not have a Carrier.

 

If we go on to add Carrier Operations then you can be sure we'll have the version of the Martlet with both.

[AndyJWest]

Brown was somewhat on the stubby side himself. Or at least, somewhat lacking in service ceiling. ?

[smink1701]

6 hours ago, Jason_Williams said:

So this is not a thread about comparing products. Take that elsewhere. Desert Wings is worth the price offered and TFS deserves to make some money off of all their effort and good work. Day One price is just $59.49 with the 15% Off discount. I would hope some of you in here, after all the trials and tribulations this hobby has gone through, have some perspective.

 

If you can afford Desert Wings I highly suggest you pick it up. Having options to fly sims is a good thing and DW is fun to fly.

 

Adopting VR to the CLOD engine takes some effort, being overly negative and discouraging others from buying is a sure fire way for it to never happen.

 

TFS is well aware of the desire of VR.

 

Jason

I for once will be happy to keep my mouth shut in my wallet open!

[I/JG54_chuishan]

13 minutes ago, Buzzsaw said:

The version used in the desert did not have folding wings or an arresting hook as the original customer, i.e. Greece, ordered the aircraft without them... that country did not have a Carrier.

 

If we go on to add Carrier Operations then you can be sure we'll have the version of the Martlet with both.

 

Thank you for meeting my curiosity! ? Hopefully one day those two key bindings in Clod will eventually fulfill their functions:)