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FA_Bong

Trimming WWI Aircraft

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So I just added Flying Circus and I already own Rise of Flight. I get the impression that there is much that is shared between these titles but some features have been left out.
Particularly with input curves; Rise of Flight deals with this by allowing you to customize inputs for individual aircraft  you can build trim into the controls while BOS/FC barely gives you curves at all. Not so much a problem in more modern types with trim wheels but for early aircraft they had to put tabs on the surfaces and you adjusted them as needed or in the rigging. For instance, the DVII can be a brick and requires a bit of back stick until it gets going but the Dr.I will go nose up Hard at almost any throttle setting, I'm fully aware of what Triplanes will do but on a spring loaded joystick this is very taxing on the wrist, flying around holding the stick forward the whole time. Short of devs giving us this feature in the game are there any solutions to this? Too bad I can't take my input profile out of ROF and stick it in my Dr.I folder eh?

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Posted (edited)

We seem to be stuck with the "one input curve to rule them all" design decision, unfortunately.  On some sticks you can adjust the strength of the centering spring which makes the stick forwards less uncomfortable. I suppose you could use a bungee cord to hold it forward of centre. You can also bind elevator up/down to a pair of buttons in addition to the stick and use them for cruising along, almost like a pseudo-trim. Messing about with that just now seems to work OK.  

 

Actually, how much the Dr.1 wants to nose up is a function of both how fast you are flying and your altitude. That probably does not help very much when you are spending most of your time at or below 3,000m, but reducing rpms by 200 or so until you actually get in a fight helps a great deal. 

Edited by unreasonable

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Or you can LSHFT+A and go make a nice cup of tea whilst awaiting aerial conflict. This is the auto level command. 

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There is an argument which says that this is how these planes were, and this is a sim, so this is how they should be.  In RoF I used the curves to trim out the Camel so that it would fly like a training aircraft, which improved my competitiveness, but was I then still "flying" a Camel?

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10 hours ago, =CfC=FatherTed said:

In RoF I used the curves to trim out the Camel so that it would fly like a training aircraft, which improved my competitiveness, but was I then still "flying" a Camel?

 

In real life you could go down to the sheds and say to your rigger:  "Now listen here, you ill-bred snotty little creep.  I want you to rig my machine so it flies straight and level and I want it done now.  Do you understand?  I'm in no mood to argue.  I breathed in a pint of castor oil on the dawn patrol this morning and I've shat myself three times already...  So get it done!"

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

 

In real life you could go down to the sheds and say to your rigger:  "Now listen here, you ill-bred snotty little creep.  I want you to rig my machine so it flies straight and level and I want it done now.  Do you understand?  I'm in no mood to argue.  I breathed in a pint of castor oil on the dawn patrol this morning and I've shat myself three times already...  So get it done!"


Not really. Planes rigged/trimmed to be tail heavy are more maneuvrable, planes rigged to be nose heavy are more stable (like, "famously", B.E.2). You have one setting to chose on the ground, either convenience when cruising or life saving performance in combat; the choice is obvious.

Using non-linear curves in RoF was way to eat cake and have it :/ ; plane was still rigged for heavy tail and performed accordingly,  but was convenient to control as if it was nose heavy. This was accomplished by non-linear stick inputs which did not existed in WW1. 

Edited by J2_Trupobaw
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1 hour ago, Feathered_IV said:

"Now listen here, you ill-bred snotty little creep.  I want you to rig my machine so it flies straight and level and I want it done now.

You wouldn't do that as you were absolutely not used to aircraft that do fly hands off. The Be2 is an anomaly here, as it was very much designed to fly by itself. People were fine with actively holding their aircraft as much as they were fine not having wheel brakes. The Blériot was that way from the beginning. Almost every designer of the era learned to fly on that one. They adaped and took ist as normal. It is so tail heavy that you need a pair of wings back there as well and holding the stick throughout the flight. It is extremely tiring and a true physical challenge for the ones like Oskar Bider or Jorge Chavez who crossed the Alps in those planes. The latter was exhausted to a degree that he crashed upon landing due to exhaustion, he simply couldn't hold the aircraft anymore after the freezing cold in thin air and stalled out in the last turn for landing.

 

The Morane Parasol on the other hand had a very light stick, but the way the elevator was balanced, the stick would fall forward immediately down on the floor of the airframe where you could not pick it up again after you lost grip. (In case you hadn't been ejected from the cockpit anyway.)

 

You cannot and you should not directly compare behavior of vintage aircraft to modern ones. They were not designed along he same design requirements. They were made for a different world that was permissive for a sort of "character" that is in no way tolerable today. How deeply ingrained (what are now) fundamental handling flaws were you can see by looking at how long it took for trim becoming standard. Aircraft had to become considerably fast to generally REQUIRE trim, as stick forces become stronger with increased speed. This biplane are slow aircraft. you can hold them. (If you are not a p*ssy.)

 

Antiques have their own charm. You suffering to hold the stick is part of that. You don't like it, get a Piper. An original Mercedes 300 SL doesn't just have gull wings. It also cooks you when stuck in traffic on a hot day. And no, nobody’s like "WTF, give me 100 kg worth of insulation and an air-condition!".

 

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Keep your hair on chaps.  You don’t need to split them all at once. 

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I had a Logitech with a spring many years ago when I flew Red Baron 3D and it was so uncomfortable I put tie wraps on the springs to compress them.  Consider that you may not have the optimal stick for this flight sim. 

 

Ordering a new (or used) stick that has trim wheels solves the issue.  The CH Fighterstick for example and others, have manual yaw and pitch trim wheels.  And then many sticks have software that allow you to customize curves etc. without trim wheels.   Trim wheels however, allow you to switch easily from plane to plane.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

 

In real life you could go down to the sheds and say to your rigger:  "Now listen here, you ill-bred snotty little creep.  I want you to rig my machine so it flies straight and level and I want it done now.  Do you understand?  I'm in no mood to argue.  I breathed in a pint of castor oil on the dawn patrol this morning and I've shat myself three times already...  So get it done!"

I doubt you could do that with a Camel

2 hours ago, J5_Baeumer said:

 

 

Ordering a new (or used) stick that has trim wheels solves the issue.  The CH Fighterstick for example and others, have manual yaw and pitch trim wheels.  And then many sticks have software that allow you to customize curves etc. without trim wheels.   Trim wheels however, allow you to switch easily from plane to plane.

This does seem like the best answer to the OP's issue

Edited by =CfC=FatherTed

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Posted (edited)

The ability to fly a WW1 scout "hands-off" is the exception rather than the rule, and it's a pretty rare exception. It's even rarer that you could fly "feet off". Some of the aircraft have a horizontal stabilizer wheel, which allows some hands-off type control. You'll want to keep the rudder controlled to prevent the plane from trying to side slip. Some of the scouts, especially the rotary-powered "turn and burn" planes are exceptionally unstable. Some so much so that even a pilot familiar with other period types can be in for a rude awakening. The Dr.1 and Camel are examples of that. You can use this to advantage in a close-in fight, but you have to develop a feel for what you're doing. All part of the experience. The SE5a, Bristol, Albatros, and Pfalz are good options when starting out.

Edited by Krispy_Duck

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You buy a force feedback stick with sensors for your hands. Don't touch the sensors and voila, trim!

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Posted (edited)
On 7/21/2020 at 4:05 PM, ACG_Smokejumper said:

You buy a force feedback stick with sensors for your hands. Don't touch the sensors and voila, trim!

 

Does using a force feedback stick still allow me to trim (say) an Se5a using the aircraft's built-in trim-wheel? For example, for take-off, landing , climb-speed etc. To put it another way, is there still an in-flight method to trim the aircraft for level-flight at an airspeed of my choosing?

 

 

 

 

Thanks.

 

 

Edited by Rail

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On 6/30/2020 at 3:04 PM, ST_Catchov said:

Or you can LSHFT+A and go make a nice cup of tea whilst awaiting aerial conflict. This is the auto level command. 

How many have done this, Came back and either crashed or was shot down? 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Rail said:

 

Does using a force feedback stick still allow me to trim (say) an Se5a using the aircraft's built-in trim-wheel? For example, for take-off, landing , climb-speed etc. To put it another way, is there still an in-flight method to trim the aircraft for level-flight at an airspeed of my choosing?

 

 

 

Thanks.

 

 

The SE5a is one aircraft which has an actual in-flight elevator ( more accurately horizontal stabiliser) trim - so yes, you can assign an axis for it and trim to your heart's content.

Edited by =CfC=FatherTed
Norfolk dialect accidentally used
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20 hours ago, =CfC=FatherTed said:

The SE5a is one aircraft which has an actual in-flight elevator ( more accurately horizontal stabiliser) trim - so yes, you can assign an axis for it and trim to your heart's content.

Great! That makes sense.

Thanks.

 

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On 7/22/2020 at 11:27 AM, Rail said:

 

Does using a force feedback stick still allow me to trim (say) an Se5a using the aircraft's built-in trim-wheel? For example, for take-off, landing , climb-speed etc. To put it another way, is there still an in-flight method to trim the aircraft for level-flight at an airspeed of my choosing?

 

 

 

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, you still use trim.

 

What I describe is that when you let go of the stick it goes dead. No resistance to keep the stick from beating itself to death when hands free. So you get the stick where you want it then let go and the FFB stick will stay there instead of returning to centre.

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12 hours ago, ACG_Smokejumper said:

 

 

Yeah, you still use trim.

 

What I describe is that when you let go of the stick it goes dead. No resistance to keep the stick from beating itself to death when hands free. So you get the stick where you want it then let go and the FFB stick will stay there instead of returning to centre.

OK. That makes it clear and understood.

Many thanks.

 

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Of course you can trim (where available in-game) with any stick. And I understand some sticks can trim anything, regardless of in-game options, right up to a full brazilian. Not my thing but. So who uses trim with a FFB stick? I don't. 

 

But I nice little trick there Smoke. 

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10 hours ago, ST_Catchov said:

Of course you can trim (where available in-game) with any stick. And I understand some sticks can trim anything, regardless of in-game options, right up to a full brazilian. Not my thing but. So who uses trim with a FFB stick? I don't. 

 

 

Fair enough. I was just trying to get at whether FFB trims using the elevator (yes) or the horizontal stabilizer (no). The onboard trimwheel uses the horizontal stabilizer which I'm used to, so I'm unsure about buying an FFB stick (if I can get one).

 

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If we ignore, the overly flexible response curves of RoF, would a simpler, possibly more authentic “helper” be just to be able to move the pitch centre point forwards, or backwards, from it’s present initial centre when in the aircraft setup page (mods, convergence, fuel) ?  A pre-flight, per-aircraft, adjustable stabiliser, but only adjustable  in the hanger,  It shouldn’t be able to fundamentally change the flight characteristics, such as a tendency to pitch down, if normally the aircraft pitched up, but never the less it might help take out some of the strain, for those people who always need to hold their stick firmly forward etc.  It might need a little player, trial and error, getting the exact back or forwards centre point adjustment, depending on fuel quantity or aircraft speed at which the player wants the best possible trim, although it might be possible to have an automatic adjustment for initial aircraft fuel quantity when the aircraft is fuelled up in the hanger

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Been suggested a few times previously.

Maybe it's time and money, or maybe the devs just don't want to include something like this.

If everyone just bought a virpil stick this wouldn't be an issue.

No probs holding a Dr1 on the level.

 

S!

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2 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

If everyone just bought a virpil stick this wouldn't be an issue.

No probs holding a Dr1 on the level.

 

How does that work Zoo? It's not FFB is it? If you can persuade me how good the Virpil is, I'll let you buy me one. :)  They're very expensive.

 

Still, I'm pretty happy with my old MSFFB2. God knows how old it really is but I've had it almost 12 years and it's still kicking.

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No it's not FFB (I've never had one so can't compare).

But you have a choice of springs and cams.

I have mine set up to be as light as possible, so it's hardly any strain to hold it in one position.

It has the added benefit of pretty much the same buttons as the Warty - so you can map important stuff like the chat box and flares !

 

I expect the VKB will be similar - if not slightly better build quality, but no complaints about the virp yet.

All the old timers swear by their FFB's so I wouldn't give it up in a hurry.

If you do want to sell I'll give you $19.99 for it. (Klug will buy it from me for $100).

 

S!

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I think i figured out a workaround. I just flew the dr 1 without having to pitch the stick forward.  It should work for every joystick (i have a warthog).

If i have the time, i will make a tutorial on this as soon as tomorrow.

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12 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

All the old timers swear by their FFB's so I wouldn't give it up in a hurry.

 

This is undoubtedly the most accurate statement ever made in this forum. ;)

 

12 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

If you do want to sell I'll give you $19.99 for it. (Klug will buy it from me for $100).

 

19.99! Are you 'avin' a larf!

 

Even if you offered me 20 bucks I wouldn't sell it. Klugsy will have to wait.

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