Reshaders

[von_Tom]

 

This video really brought it home to me how much the reshaders can impact on visibility.

 

 

Setting aside discussions over hue, contrast, saturation and all of that stuff that is tailored to the individual user's tastes i.e. subjective, I can't work out what it is in a multiplayer context - is it a cheat or not?

 

I'm torn because on one hand I think that this is external changes to the core game that gives an advantage to those who use it i.e. a cheat/hack.

 

On the other hand, I'm thinking that I want to try it to help improve my spotting.  But then I'd have to adjust each time I switched between servers where it is allowed and servers where it is not.

 

Do I try it or not - decisions, decisions...

 

von Tom

 

[Raven109]

There was a thread yesterday where people showed that it can be "abused" to an extreme extent. It's a good example of a good tool that can be used to do shady (shader-y) things. That thread is now deleted.

 

The definition of a cheat is blurry in the case of reshade. How much of a visibility improvement does one must get out of reshade to be considered that he's cheating? Very subjective if you ask me. So, if a server allows reshade, it allows its full potential. Since everybody "can" have access to modify the shaders as they please, then everyone is on equal footing. The issue is that not many have the expertise to change shaders. You can get some extreme effects even with the existing presets. 

 

Is having better technical knowledge at configuring reshade considered a cheat?

 

IBTL, BTW.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Raven109

[SIA_Sp00k]

Its a bigger cheat than 3Dmigoto!  It paints a horrific picture of the mind of a flat screener who permits and advocates this abomination while standing shoulder to shoulder with law abiding peaceful and fairplay loving VR users.

 

I for one stand completely shocked! SHOCKED I tell you!

[Raven109]

3 minutes ago, TWC_Sp00k said:

flat screener

 

I giggled at that more than I probably should have.

[CountZero]

I dont belive that screans are flat they are curved, govermants are lying to you, there is no such thing as flat screen dont belive flat screen mafia.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

On 6/12/2020 at 12:03 PM, Raven109 said:

Since everybody "can" have access to modify the shaders as they please, then everyone is on equal footing. [...] Is having better technical knowledge at configuring reshade considered a cheat?

Since this game is about flying WW2 aircraft and not about configuring reshade, yes it is cheating. If this was a programming competition you might get a first prize for writing some fancy custom shader, but it's a combat flight sim so you're not supposed to do these things. Your reasoning is analogous to saying that cheating during a card game is OK because everyone *can* teach himself some sleight-of-hand tricks. During a magicians contest this may be true, but not in a normal card game.

 

On the other hand, I cannot be bothered too much by cheating. If some people are so pathetic that their K/D means so much to them that they're willing to resort to less-than-chivalrous methods to achieve it, I'm not angry but rather pity them for the humongous lack of self-esteem they must suffer. I honestly hope these people will one day find the inner peace to be happy without a good K/D.

[Raven109]

20 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

Since this game is about flying WW2 aircraft and not about configuring reshade, yes it is cheating. If this was a programming competition you might get a first prize for writing some fancy custom shader, but it's a combat flight sim so you're not supposed to do these things. Your reasoning is analogous to saying that cheating during a card game is OK because everyone *can* teach himself some sleight-of-hand tricks. During a magicians contest this may be true, but not in a normal card game.

 

On the other hand, I cannot be bothered too much by cheating. If some people are so pathetic that their K/D means so much to them that they're willing to resort to less-than-chivalrous methods to achieve it, I'm not angry but rather pity them for the humongous lack of self-esteem they must suffer. I honestly hope these people will one day find the inner peace to be happy without a good K/D.

 

Well, that's the only reasoning you can apply if reshade is activated on a server, which right now it can be if allowed. If allowed, the competition moves to getting the best settings out of reshade, to get the edge.

 

I was just answering the initial question of what constitutes a cheat if reshade is allowed. I for one am against having reshade on a server.

 

But then you have people with large screens, better hardware setups. Would you consider a cheater someone who tweaks their joystick to have a longer stick and get much more accurate movement in-game and much more precise aiming? Is hardware tweaking different from software tweaking?

 

What do you do about those, since getting the edge is still about using capabilities which are external to the game world.

 

Fairness in on-line public gaming is an illusion. This is not a game which you play at a table and can see what everyone has up their sleeve, hence why the comparison to a cards game doesn't apply.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Raven109

[AEthelraedUnraed]

You are right in that it's a complex problem and that no such thing as "absolute equality" exists. For example I don't, at the moment, have the money for a TrackIR system which makes flying fighters in multiplayer all but impossible to me. Does that make those people who do have TrackIR cheaters? Of course not. But that doesn't mean that everything that's technically within the server rules is OK. As a postgrad student in the area of image processing/recognition, I could probably come up with some external hardware that emulates mouse input to automatically follow my target, similar to the padlock function in game. I don't think there are any server rules against such hardware, so that makes it technically allowed. However, I'd still consider it cheating and unethical as it is basically bending the rules.

 

It's the same thing with ReShade, even on servers that do allow it. As soon as you get an edge in spotting, and hence start to use ReShade for things other than what it's meant for (more beautiful graphics), it becomes cheating. It's indeed a very large grey area though as there are many legitimate image enhancements that may unwittingly improve spotting. Therefore, I'd say that it's the reason behind someone's usage of ReShade that determines if he's cheating. If he uses ReShade because it makes the game look better, he isn't a cheater even if it may have some small effect on spotting. If he uses ReShade to be better at spotting and hence get an edge in multiplayer, he's a cheater.

 

Of course, this is a purely philosophical question as it's up to the servers what they allow.

[ITAF_Airone1989]

1 hour ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

. For example I don't, at the moment, have the money for a TrackIR system which makes flying fighters in multiplayer all but impossible to me. 

 

Try to look: DelanClip.

It's cheaper and works pretty the same, I use that and have no difference with TrackIr.

 

[Indianer]

To play on a server without reshade, do I have to uninstall reshade completely or is it enough to toggle it off in the game(via hotkey/reshade setup screen)? I couldn't test it yet.

[von_Tom]

 

On reflection I think it is simpler.

 

If it affects the game code in any way, or the way the game code is presented on screen, then it should not be allowed if mods = off.  The goal with mods=off is to reach equality of software.  What people have in terms of hardware is outside of the software constraints.

 

von Tom

[SharpeXB]

Wow. That’s definitely a cheat. Glad the Devs took action on it. 

[BlackBadger]

If this game had a working useful spotting system nobody would even consider using reshade. I admit I never knew one could get that level of advantage using it though.

 

 

[XQ_Lothar29]

On 6/13/2020 at 3:31 PM, Indianer said:

To play on a server without reshade, do I have to uninstall reshade completely or is it enough to toggle it off in the game(via hotkey/reshade setup screen)? I couldn't test it yet.

uninstall is only solution. or go to a server that is allowed Reshade

I've used reshade all the time, from Rise of Flight DCS and here. and I've never done it by cheating, I just give the color tone I want. Cheats will always be everywhere!

You can do one thing:
Copy the entire folder of the simulator and paste it with another name, and clean the Reshade, you will have two installations, one with Reshade and one without.

[[DBS]TH0R]

On 6/13/2020 at 10:26 PM, hnbdgr said:

If this game had a working useful spotting system nobody would even consider using reshade. I admit I never knew one could get that level of advantage using it though.

 

+1000

[Guest deleted@210880]

(personal opinion)

 

Generally if anyone is toggling it on and off to see contacts then that is abusing it (cheating).

 

If someone has it on permanently then it is cosmetic to help colours.

 

But of course there are exceptions to the second scenario where people may be so defective in their ego that they would rather fly something that looks utter crap all the time (i.e. not turn it on and off) in order to be able to get their jollies on others who are at a disadvantage to them.

 

I was setting up my monitor the other day and I noticed I could increase sharpness to full and it would highlight aircraft with a halo, did I keep that, no, it looked crap; but then I also have my head position in what feels realistic rather than optimal for fighting because I'm an idiot. Some people will always tweak things to get an edge, there'll never be a level playin field, but, I think the action taken on reshade was the correct one.

 

What would be cool (as awell as being able to spot things generally in the game), would be if they added a vibrance setting, like they have with gamma, so it can be boosted a little as a graphics setting.

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2020 by deleted@210880

[FTC_ChilliBalls]

On 6/15/2020 at 1:20 AM, John_Yossarian said:

Generally if anyone is toggling it on and off to see contacts then that is abusing it (cheating).

 

Disagree. It´s not like the picture is fundamentally different.

Reshade only takes the picture that is already on screen and enhances it.

You can´t see things that aren´t already on screen.

If there´s pixels of a plane on screen, then reshade can make the plane more visible.

If there aren´t, it can´t.

It´s like using glasses with more or less dioptres. 

Edited June 19, 2020 by So_ein_Feuerball

[AEthelraedUnraed]

1 hour ago, So_ein_Feuerball said:

Disagree. It´s not like the picture is fundamentally different.

Reshade only takes the picture that is already on screen and enhances it.

You can´t see things that aren´t already on screen.

If there´s pixels of a plane on screen, then reshade can make the plane more visible.

If there aren´t, it can´t.

It´s like using glasses with more or less dioptres. 

Reshade can - and does - make use of non-linear algorithms to enhance the information displayed. Therefore it can alter this information in unrealistic ways that actually does make for a fundamentally different picture as features that are otherwise invisible are now clearly visible. This non-linearity (and I use "linearity" in the broadest sense of the word here) also makes it fundamentally different from your example of glasses with more or less dioptres.

 

Furthermore, while stock ReShade doesn't provide access to the depth buffer in multiplayer, it's open source so there's nothing stopping anyone from writing a custom shader that does incorporate depth information. Therefore it actually *is* possible to display things that are otherwise invisible on screen. And even without depth buffer access it's perfectly possible to fundamentally change how certain features are displayed, as the video clearly shows.

Edited June 19, 2020 by AEthelraedUnraed

[FTC_ChilliBalls]

4 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

Reshade can - and does - make use of non-linear algorithms to enhance the information displayed. Therefore it can alter this information in unrealistic ways that actually does make for a fundamentally different picture as features that are otherwise invisible are now clearly visible. This non-linearity (and I use "linearity" in the widest sense of the word here) also makes it fundamentally different from your example of glasses with more or less dioptres.

 

I take issue with the emphasised part. Reshade cannot alter things that are non existant.

Unless there´s visible pixels that are displayed on your monitor, it cannot enhance non existing pixels.

 

6 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

Furthermore, while stock ReShade doesn't provide access to the depth buffer, it's open source so there's nothing stopping anyone from writing a custom shader that does incorporate depth information. Therefore it actually *is* possible to display things that are otherwise invisible on screen.

 

For reshade to have access to the depth buffer, the game has to give access to it.

I don´t know whether IL2 does so, but if it does, it´s relatively easy to stop it from doing so.

Furthermore, for the depth buffer to be used by a shader, FoV has to be constant, which it isn´t in IL2.

 

9 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

And even without depth buffer access it's perfectly possible to fundamentally change how certain features are displayed, as the video clearly shows.

 

Again, Reshade cannot alter things that aren´t already present on screen. 

Any of these types of enhancement  can be acchieved by using a bigger screen with higher resolution.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

2 minutes ago, So_ein_Feuerball said:

I take issue with the emphasised part. Reshade cannot alter things that are non existant.

Unless there´s visible pixels that are displayed on your monitor, it cannot enhance non existing pixels.

While it's true it cannot (besides if using the depth buffer) display things that aren't already, to some extent, displayed on screen, there are two issues with this:

- Any such difference might be completely imperceptible to the human eye - it can theoretically be as small as 1/16777216 (the smallest colour difference possible) of the dynamic range of your screen.

- Again, ReShade can use non-linear filters that are not available to our human vision.

 

2 minutes ago, So_ein_Feuerball said:

For reshade to have access to the depth buffer, the game has to give access to it.

I don´t know whether IL2 does so, but if it does, it´s relatively easy to stop it from doing so.

You're right that, if IL2 doesn't give access to the depth buffers (I don't know either), it would make that part of my argument moot. If it does, however, how easy it is or isn't for the developers to disable that access is irrelevant to the discussion whether such usage would constitute cheating or not.

 

2 minutes ago, So_ein_Feuerball said:

Furthermore, for the depth buffer to be used by a shader, FoV has to be constant, which it isn´t in IL2.

Depth buffers have little to do with whatever FOV is used or if it's constant. AFAIK, the depth buffer is written in camera space, which already incorporates FOV data. The following conversion from camera to screen space (or any conversion between world, object, camera and screen space, for that matter) is a trivial matrix multiplication. Depth buffers are always needed to properly display overlapping objects, irrespective of FOV.

Or is this some strange ReShade-specific behaviour that's different from the computer graphics implementations I know? In that case, a custom implementation of ReShade could be able to use the depth buffer.

 

2 minutes ago, So_ein_Feuerball said:

Again, Reshade cannot alter things that aren´t already present on screen. 

Any of these types of enhancement  can be acchieved by using a bigger screen with higher resolution.

It can use the relation between adjacent pixels, and do so in a non-linear manner. Although all data is indeed present in the pixels (although often entirely imperceptible as written above), the relationship between these pixels isn't as such (actually, our brain uses similar image processing "algorithms" to recognise edges etc. - but not nearly as flexibly as a computer does, which is exactly my point) and are therefore not always achievable by merely using a higher resolution (in fact, and somewhat off-topic, using a higher resolution may even make it harder to do the visibility enhancements shown in the video).

 

To give a trivial example, you might use non-linear filters to draw any distant one-pixel aircraft as a red dot. You may use the default game with a larger screen and more pixels and the aircraft is now perhaps 10 pixels (and admittedly more visible than it was before), but it will never turn red.

 

Furthermore, more pixels only works to a certain extent (there comes a point where pixels become so small they're basically imperceptible (if we take a 17in screen and a minimum perceptible object size of 0.116mm at reading distance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naked_eye#Small_objects_and_maps) you're looking at some 4000px in the diagonal - which is actually less than 8k). You can of course increase the screen size, but then your FOV decreases (your personal, real-life FOV, not the in-game one) as the apparent object size of all in-game objects increases and is hence similar to zooming in. Zooming is already possible in-game, you don't need ReShade for that and this isn't an issue - the issue is combining a large FOV with great visibility of small objects.

 

Of course, there's another possible line of argument about whether the in-game visibility corresponds to real-life visibility and of course it doesn't (a quick calculation shows that a 4m object (height of a He-111) is visible from ~15km with the naked eye - although I'm somewhat unsure if I should use the minimum dimension or apparent surface area here). That's irrelevant however, as we play a game and are not flying IRL.

 

Nevertheless, a rather interesting topic and discussion ?

[Guest deleted@210880]

My understanding is that reshade can in theory add a band around a single pixel (cartoon effect?) so 1 pixel becomes 9 or so? THat means the relveant size of the contact is magnified. If someone flicks that on and off because it looks terrible but they get to see far off contacts, then that to me is abusing the system, whereas a permanent boost of contrast isn't so much of abuse.

 

I'm not overly het up about reshade, but will chose to fly on servers that block it when I have the chance, because all it takes is one abuser base camping to spoil your night of flying very quickly. There could be someone with a different cheat on the server anyway of course but statistical chances of encountering someone toggling an unfair advantage on and off is greatly reduced I should think by blocking what is known.

 

Ultimately I think most people know if they are cheating/abusing or not really.

 

[von_Tom]

 

von Tom

[Giovanni_Giorgio]

Is there any explanation why some servers still allow it?

[Hawk-2a]

46 minutes ago, mincer said:

Is there any explanation why some servers still allow it?

Because it‘s a server side option to allow it or not to allow it. Every server admin can decide for himself

[Giovanni_Giorgio]

I know it is the admin's choice. I mean, who in his sane mind would allow it?

[TCW_Brzi_Joe]

@mincer one reason is workaround for pimax vr wrong convergence while zooming. Some trolls will say that is not good reason.

[Giovanni_Giorgio]

3 minutes ago, Brzi_Joe said:

@mincer one reason is workaround for pimax vr wrong convergence while zooming. Some trolls will say that is not good reason.

I hope it will get fixed soon and this gigantic loophole will be closed.

[TCW_Brzi_Joe]

Thank you. I can not tell you how bad feeling is when you are not able to play your favourite game for days and days. I wish that to nobody.

[Beazil]

The paranoia regarding cheating is almost as funny as those who actually cheat.

Giant loophole?  Really?

For what it's worth, I don't run any mods because I want to fly wherever and whenever I want.  But I gave up on my Pimax and just use PP anyway, so for me it's not a big deal either way. 

I haven't seen cheating on any server that I am aware of, yet you'd think it was rampant the way people act on these forums.

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

Here's an example of Reshade Off and On.  Amazingly not everyone that uses Reshade cheats.  It simply enhances the game, period.

 

Comparisons to the older 3Dmigoto are apples and oranges.  With Reshade you have to spend time learning what a myriad of shaders do and then figure out what parameters to change and how in order to make it a cheat.  With the old 3Dmigoto you simply installed the mod, period, and the zoom levels were your immediate cheat in 2D, if you wanted them to be.  Remember, 3Dmigoto was mainly for VR users who needed better zoom.  The mod was never designed as a cheat.

 

The choice for admins is not whether to allow Reshade or not.  Their choice is whether to allow injectors or not.  If they ban injectors, it not only affects Reshade but also VREM, which is the new mod for VR users.  The devs had to cut off the old mod because of the issue with it.  If servers all ban injectors VR users will be screwed a second time.

 

17 minutes ago, JG51_Beazil said:

The paranoia regarding cheating is almost as funny as those who actually cheat.

 

+100

 

EDIT:  To the best of my knowledge Reshade cannot increase the distance at which a plane can be spotted, e.g., ~10km.  It can however enhance planes within that range.  You are still going to see another plane once within your spotting distance.  Even if you could be spotted 15km away by a cheat you will still see him as he approaches you.  Any advantage is short lived.  The ONE biggest threat to players on mp isn't the possible few people cheating, it is the RANDOM INVISIBLE PLANE BUG which has existed for years and needs to be fixed by the devs.  No one knows when they are invisible and to whom.  IMO this is more prevalent than people with cheats and there is no defense against it.

 

Edited June 23, 2020 by VBF-12_Stick-95

[PreyStalker]

In terms of making things look nice, I've always found the TV / monitor image settings and the Nvidia control panel colour settings are more than adequate for tweaking the overall look.

 

Reshade is more for fancy effects used in screenshots or videos (or for cheating, unfortunately)

 

One useful aspect of Reshade is how it lets you vary the degree of anti aliaising to apply. Using just a minimal amount really helps with contact spotting at a distance.

 

This greater level of AA adjustment should be incorporated into the UI in my opinion.

[von_Tom]

Interesting. 
 

So a zoom level that gave VR users parity is a cheat even though it prompted equivalent zoom via a development update, yet something that affects how the game is rendered, giving a huge spotting advantage to those who use it, is not a cheat. This equates to rank hypocrisy. 
 

You only have to watch the videos to see the difference. If you are saying that Reshade does not give an advantage when used as it can be, then you are a fool. Spotting is probably the most important element in PvP and using injectors to improve that is a cheat. 
 

The argument that greater technical knowledge is needed fails because things like this are shared. There is also the web to help and those who want to use it will find a way. 
 

I feel for those who use Reshade to get their preferred “look” and I certainly don’t call them all cheats. But the possibility is there and if the possibility is there then some will use it for nefarious reasons. 
 

As for hysteria over cheating, I think this is justified because cheating tarnishes one’s enjoyment and preventing it benefits everyone. I am convinced (with no empirical data to back it up) that there is more suspicion than actual cheating, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be vigilant. 

In my opinion naturally. 

 

von Tom

[Giovanni_Giorgio]

Let's enable cheats that can be entered with the keyboard, I'd go for iddqd and idkfa. Because who is going to use them anyway, right?

[Beazil]

Vigilant is one thing.  Assuming everyone must be using mods to cheat is another.

Like I said I have no horse in this race.  Mincer is being a touch reactive imho, but is illustrating my point for me.

Why do we feel so entitled to tell others how to play or how they should run their servers?  It seems to me we spend a lot of time doing that here and alot less time devoting ourselves to become better virtual pilots.  As I said in another thread to another user; the less time you spend worrying about how others play, and the more time you spend getting better on your own, the more you will enjoy the experience of online play.

Spending your time fuming about "the other guy" is a waste of energy and promotes finger pointing alot of times.  Just my 2 cents.

[Giovanni_Giorgio]

Have you ever been in a situation online when you are in a head-on with an enemy fighter, and you see him (and realize you are in a head-on, actually) only after he opens fire? How can being a "better pilot" help in this kind of situation?

Edited June 24, 2020 by mincer

[Hawk-2a]

19 minutes ago, mincer said:

How can being a "better pilot" help in this kind of situation?

Reshade or not, if you do not see a guy 2km from you heading straight for you, you‘re sleeping or blind.

not everyone you „don‘t see“ is a cheater. Some are actually really really good pilots out there. If you get shot down, you should ask yourself what you did wrong before pointing fingers that he was „probably“ cheating.

 

you gotta really change your mindset. Being a better pilot starts in your head.

Edited June 24, 2020 by H_Stiglitz

[Beazil]

21 minutes ago, mincer said:

Have you ever been in a situation online when you are in a head-on with an enemy fighter, and you see him (and realize you are in a head-on, actually) only after he opens fire? How can being a "better pilot" help in this kind of situation?

The guy who survives made the right move.  I'm not some Jedi Master with all the answers, but that is a better question than "is this guy cheating?".  A more fun one too.

And yes I've been there.  Made the wrong decision too.

[Giovanni_Giorgio]

5 minutes ago, H_Stiglitz said:

Reshade or not, if you do not see a guy 2km from you heading straight for you, you‘re sleeping or blind.

I guess you are suggesting to me to become a better pilot by waking up, right? Makes sense: waking up starts in my head, right.

Edited June 24, 2020 by mincer

[Hawk-2a]

3 minutes ago, mincer said:

I guess you are suggesting to me to become a better pilot by waking up, right? Makes sense: waking up starts in my head, right.

No, i‘m telling you to start thinking about your flying before you point fingers at others, calling them cheaters.

 

becoming a better pilot starts in your head. It‘s a mindset, being willing to accept your own failure and grow from it. That‘s where winning starts.

to get better, you have to get shot down. You will improve a lot if you get beaten by players better than you and learn from it.

[Giovanni_Giorgio]

I think you miss my point. I am not asking advice on "becoming a better pilot". I am talking about having a more or less even playing field for everyone. From my point of view,  given how much impact visibility has in this game, enabling injectors massively defeats this goal. That is all from me.