Ai Hit and Run

[PatrickAWlson]

Wondering if there is a possibility of coding some kind of hot and tun capability in the AI.  Preferably with some ability to influence this in through mission creation.

 

I fully understand that the implementation would not be trivial, but the concept is.

 

1. Hit and run ground attack.  This is probably the easiest.  Drop all ordnance in one pass and then full speed exit.  The AI would follow the same routes designated by waypoints and attack area as it does today but with some differences:

- no loitering over the target.

- full speed egress.

- All ordnance expended in one pass.

 

2. Fighter hit and run.  This one is much tougher because the AI has to be aware of more things.  Relative energy state.  Relative position.  Relative aircraft capabilities.  But let's say this is possible to code.  Then add a parameter to a plane or the lead plane that indicates a fighting style preference.  The result in game would be fighters that made a pass and then extended away, possibly without returning to the fight if the situation did not warrant it.

 

The AI has already been improved to use energy tactics.  This would be a next step where it takes the concept further.  Extending away and then either deciding to return if the situation is favorable or going home if it is not.

 

[[DBS]Browning]

A kind of "hit and reposition" would be nice for AI fighters attacking bombers. The Mighty 8th's AI did this wonderfully.

 

Fighters make a pass on a bomber and then go to a new position to make the next attack from the side, above, below or head-on. Currently, the AI only makes deliberate attacks from the six after the first pass.

[Zeev]

You cam achieve the first one by giving the AI enough distance to adjust itself towards the enemy, both by spawning the enemy far away enough and triggering the ground attack command (preferably at the same time).
Then either count the enemy killed or bingo on bombs to trigger the next waypoint.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Zeev

[SAS_Storebror]

31 minutes ago, Zeev said:

You cam achieve the first one by giving the AI enough distance to adjust itself towards the enemy, both by spawning the enemy far away enough and triggering the ground attack command (preferably at the same time).
Then either count the enemy killed or bingo on bombs to trigger the next waypoint.

If only it would work like you say - but it doesn't.

Well... that being said, it does provided your mission is dead simple and there's nothing that might disturb AI during their attack run.

If however there is AAA, enemy fighters, wind, ... or just some trapped wind for the AI pilot - then the fun begins.

AI randomly dumps away the bombs, or just drops one out of n bombs, or two out of n, or none at all, and sometimes runs away, or starts to act like a fighter, or (most of the time) simply turns around for another attack run.

It's unpredictable at the moment and I guess that's why the OP started this thread.

 

Mike

[Eclipse4349]

I've used this same setup described above in a practice mission. Planes spawn at one side, and get a way point to fly to the other side. When they are about 30km or so out, they get an attack area command on an airfield. The bingo bombs message triggers the next waypoints, which has the plane turn and fly back across the map, where it then gets deleted as it reaches the out of bounds area. A new attacker spawns every 45 seconds, and it rotates through all possible attack planes and bombers so the target isn't always the same plane. Not a single one has ever loitered or had an issue. 

 

This is in a player-hosted multiplayer mission (non-dedicated) with all waypoints and the attack area command set to high priority. There is a lot else available in the mission to practice doing, like air gunnery targets, ACM targets that have no ammo, tank targets having a mock battle, a train that respawns when destroyed or when it reaches the other end of the track, artillery targets, several RRR stations, bombing targets, and general flight airfield, along with the 5 air spawns for practicing all the above.  Everything is always going (since triggers detected players is broken on non-dedicated servers) and everything respawns as it is destroyed. So, it isn't a dead-simple mission.  But it works perfectly. 

 

Maybe it's different with a mission run on a dedicated server? I know you guys have a lot more knowledge and experience than me. I just wanted to share my experience and setup. 

[Werner_Voss]

Thumbs Up  !!!

Improving the AI constantly should be always one of the number one topics of the developers. 

 

Flying patterns of IL-2's AI is too much predictable in general, in my humble opinion. 

 

And the hit and run thing would depict the reality of WWII tactics much more accurately.  100% agreement.

[Jade_Monkey]

I'll just casually drop this here (the chrome built in translation works well).

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/13500-обсуждение-ии-в-игре/?do=findComment&comment=779063

[SAS_Storebror]

7 hours ago, Eclipse4349 said:

all waypoints and the attack area command set to high priority

That'll work probably, but it's not feasible.

Setting the priority high means that the regarding planes are sitting ducks.

They don't care for anyone intercepting them.

You can sit on their tail and dump all your ammo into them, without the attackers even considering evasive manoeuvres.

 

Mike

[Eclipse4349]

4 hours ago, SAS_Storebror said:

That'll work probably, but it's not feasible.

Setting the priority high means that the regarding planes are sitting ducks.

They don't care for anyone intercepting them.

You can sit on their tail and dump all your ammo into them, without the attackers even considering evasive manoeuvres.

 

Mike

Ah, yes, that's true. That was what I wanted for the practice mission (high speed passes on an "unaware" target) but that wouldn't be very good otherwise. I suppose medium priority behavior doesn't accomplish the goal either bc they'll opt to fight it out. Maybe a "high-ish" priority would do... ?

6 hours ago, Jade_Monkey said:

I'll just casually drop this here (the chrome built in translation works well).

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/13500-обсуждение-ии-в-игре/?do=findComment&comment=779063

Some nice info there, glad to see they are focusing on improvements. Thanks! 

 

I saw WTR referred to several times. Any idea what WTR stands for? 

[PatrickAWlson]

@Eclipse4349

WTR = way to reproduce?  That is always a key thing in fixing a software issue. My snarky answer is "fly a mission" but I understand what the developer is looking for: the specific conditions under which this happens such that it can be easily recreated over and over.  It is difficult be successful if you can only recreate the problem 3x a day in a 8 hour day.  

 

I can imagine what the AI code must look like.  Variation upon variation with some combinations producing bad results.  When you are looking at complex code it can be very difficult to see exactly what combination of factors produces an undesirable outcome.

Edited June 7, 2020 by PatrickAWlson

[Eclipse4349]

3 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

@Eclipse4349

WTR = way to reproduce?  That is always a key thing in fixing a software issue. My snarky answer is "fly a mission" but I understand what the developer is looking for: the specific conditions under which this happens such that it can be easily recreated over and over.  It is difficult be successful if you can only recreate the problem 3x a day in a 8 hour day.  

 

I can imagine what the AI code must look like.  Variation upon variation with some combinations producing bad results.  When you are looking at complex code it can be very difficult to see exactly what combination of factors produces an undesirable outcome.

Aha, yes that makes perfect sense, thanks. I can't even imagine how complex AI coding or any other part of it is.  My hat's off to them, for sure. 

[Gambit21]

I’ve been wanting the option for high speed, low bomb passes by the AI for a while now.

 

High priority egress waypoints does indeed work - it works very well in fact.

 

If you want the AI to “check” for persuing aircraft etc and react accordingly then you simply need to design and place such logic using check zones and/or proximity triggers. There’s always more than one way to skin the cat.

[=621=Samikatz]

I have seen AI 262s try to do hit and run passes. They often try too hard to follow and end up bleeding too much energy before their extension but you can see that they're trying

[Gambit21]

They’re subject to the same editor logic.

[Yogiflight]

7 hours ago, =621=Samikatz said:

I have seen AI 262s try to do hit and run passes. They often try too hard to follow and end up bleeding too much energy before their extension but you can see that they're trying

Fighter high speed attacks are still a large issue. You can see this very good in PWCG, because of the higher altitudes compared to the game's career missions. AI fighters dive down on enemies, miss them by far, and either climb back to do the very same thing, or, more often start turning until they lost all their energy advantage and, at least I can observe this regularely at my squadmates, position themselves with high perfection in front of enemy fighters. Viewing airfights is very frustrating, as this is just one of the issues.