The issue with VR is not the magnification

[Bernard_IV]

The Reverb has the resolution to compete with flat screen monitors.  I'm spotting pretty well and the new zoom really helps.  My stats aren't that great because I screw around quite a bit but when I was playing sweaty I can get in the top 200 on combat box.  

[dburne]

25 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Sure but flight sims are primarily 2D games. Look at MSFS2020, it isn’t even supporting VR at launch. For an example of a VR specific flight game look at VTOL VR. Note how simplistic the graphics are in order to run smoothly in VR. Any of the higher fidelity flight sims are lucky to just run in continual re-projection mode at half the frame rate of the HMD. To make these sims ideal for VR would mean stripping their graphics down to a point where they wouldn’t appeal the the majority of buyers who are using monitors. 

That would indeed be the ideal solution. Both for performance and competitive fairness. But there probably aren’t enough VR users to justify it. And it might require way too much rework in order to hit the performance goals. But yes, that’s what VR would really need. 

 

I have corrected you on this before.

Hitting ASW in IL-2 GB for me is the exception rather than the norm. 

We are getting closer for sure, between higher powered rigs and better VR optimization by the Devs, who have done a very good job in this department.

VR along with VR support by 1CGS have come a long way in the last 3 years.

I was in a PWCG mission the other day, I was in flight of four, and we had two  more flights of four and one flight of two enemy AI in view , and I still maintained max fps with no ASW.

Btw I run everything mostly maxed out in graphics.

 

Glad you find the VR forum so interesting considering you have no desire to use VR.

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by dburne

[SharpeXB]

23 minutes ago, dburne said:

 

I have corrected you on this before.

Hitting ASW in IL-2 GB for me is the exception rather than the norm. 

Yes I realize that. You have a very strong system though.

26 minutes ago, dburne said:

Glad you find the VR forum so interesting considering you have no desire to use VR.

You realize what draws my reaction in these topics is when anyone brings up the idea of handicapping monitor users in favor of VR. Otherwise I have nothing against it. 

[Beazil]

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Yes I realize that. You have a very strong system though.

You realize what draws my reaction in these topics is when anyone brings up the idea of handicapping monitor users in favor of VR. Otherwise I have nothing against it. 

Nobody has ever seriously suggested that monitor users should be handicapped in any way shape or form vs other users.  Certainly not the developers themselves, and definitely not VR users as a whole (we also use monitors!).

Suggesting that was ever the case is a wee bit of nonsense.  

[[DBS]Browning]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

 look at VTOL VR. Note how simplistic the graphics are in order to run smoothly in VR.

 

I suspect that has more to do with the one-man dev team. No doubt if BD had microsoft's team instead of just himself, VTOL VR would look different.

 

Besides IL2 runs smoothly for me in VR at max settings and I'm on a  1070ti.

[69th_Bazzer]

15 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You realize what draws my reaction in these topics is when anyone brings up the idea of handicapping monitor users in favor of VR. Otherwise I have nothing against it. 

That is just not how the majority of your posts read. Even if true, it doesn't explain why you are so quick to chime in on every VR related post with some kind of anti-VR strawman argument or made up statistic, or just bashing VR in general.

 

You have made your feelings about VR abundantly, nauseatingly clear.

[von_Tom]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s not a VR-only game. It wasn’t designed from the ground up to use VR only. And about 90% of flight sim players use monitors.

 

Didn't say it was, but it doesn't matter what it was designed for - if you can play the game in VR without having to resort to 3rd party software etc then it is a VR game.

 

Out of curiosity, what is the source for the figure of about 90%?

 

The MSFS2020 developers have backtracked quite a lot regarding VR once they realised how important it is.

 

von Tom

[Lusekofte]

I hate this polarized them and us crap. I really do. It took a great deal of trying before I went full time VR myself. It is a heavy cramped sweatty gear clamped to your head. It only bring you in a cockpit the rest is well favors and disadvantage

we all have at one point flown 2D

Now why cant we just put ourselves together and support a improved game. 
better spotting in 2 D will bring better spotting in 3 D

I simply enjoy sitting in a pit from ww2. I care less about zoom and spotting. I get killed by the ones not seen at all anyway. 

Edited May 29, 2020 by 216th_LuseKofte

[Beazil]

Just now, 216th_LuseKofte said:

I hate this polarized them and us crap. I really do. It took a great deal of trying before I went full time VR myself. It is a heavy cramped sweatty gear clamped to your head. It only bring you in a cockpit the rest is well favors and disadvantage

we all have at one point flown 2D

Now why cant we just put ourselves together and support a improved game. 
better spotting in 2 D will bring better spotting in 3 D

I simply enjoy sitting in a pit from ww2. I care less about zoom and spotting. I get killed by the ones not seen at all anyway. 

Yup.

[SharpeXB]

28 minutes ago, JG51_Beazil said:

Nobody has ever seriously suggested that monitor users should be handicapped in any way shape or form vs other users. 

The OP did

[RedKestrel]

4 minutes ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

I hate this polarized them and us crap. I really do. It took a great deal of trying before I went full time VR myself. It is a heavy cramped sweatty gear clamped to your head. It only bring you in a cockpit the rest is well favors and disadvantage

we all have at one point flown 2D

Now why cant we just put ourselves together and support a improved game. 
better spotting in 2 D will bring better spotting in 3 D

I simply enjoy sitting in a pit from ww2. I care less about zoom and spotting. I get killed by the ones not seen at all anyway. 

All of this. Not to mention that optimization for better VR performance will also usually carry over to a faster, smoother experience for 2D users.

Even the improved zoom helps 2D users in the online area. If VR users are more able to ID aircraft, then they can avoid friendly fire or help out friendly fighters. 

We seem to be moving towards a game where the difference in performance between VR and 2D screens is less and less.

[SharpeXB]

21 hours ago, JG51_jokkr said:

 

also a rear view limiter for 2d would go a long way to equalizing the game experience.

This...

[Lusekofte]

9 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

This...

I am not in favor for that change myself. Mostly because I used that owl neck feature myself for years. 
Yes it is unfair but it was before VR was available. But then favor was for those putting most money in the pit. Now the favor go for those not able or willing to invest. 
For my sake, I knew I said goodbye to owlneck going for VR

people spend too much time thinking what others have

Edited May 29, 2020 by 216th_LuseKofte

[IRRE_Belmont]

4 hours ago, Birdman said:

I think what he means is: the game was not intended to be a full VR title (like Alyx for example), VR is an extra in a way and related issues may not be at the top of the to-do list.

Yep you got it right !

[Beazil]

17 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The OP did

I'm going to save you alot of trouble.  

Jokkr is no fool, and if you choose to engage him in an online forum with your continual hand picking of particular arguements that continue to be self serving and fling them out into public forums for the sole purpose of mucking up threads like this one because for some reason you find development of VR threatening in some way, then you do so at your own peril.

Your continued posting in this fashion is beginning to concern me.  Either you are VERY cemented in your perspective or you are being deliberate in stirring up stuff in VR threads.

 

I can dance with you all day long my friend.  I truly value your comments and perspectives, but I can't help but think you do this on purpose sometimes bud.  He doesn't speak for all VR users anymore than I do.

All the best.

[WB_jokkr]

I don't want to beat a dead horse. I have both setups and am very aware of each setups  strengths and limitations.

 

When it comes to rear view, VR is bound in multiplayer to the cockpit space and viewing is limited to where a realistic pilot can maneuver their head to.. In offline play I enjoy it better where I can stick my head through the plexi and look back and see like I do with trackir which allows the camera position to go further than with VR.

 

OK, while pointing it out, I'm not demanding in a public forum for this to be removed. My personal opinion doesn't count here and I don't want to continue the  us vs them attitudes. The game works best when all participate are on a roughly level playing field. Note I said roughly. While I can't see out back for &$@&, I can maneuver the plane with better spacial awareness than you can with a 2d screen. 

 

Jokkr

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by JG51_jokkr

[Nibbio]

Jokkr assuming you use steamvr, download openvr advanced settings and you can have a 180 degrees rotation snap view bound to a touch controller button.

It's easy and fast.

Place the touch controller close to your throttle and you have an accessible 6oclock snap view in vr.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Nibbio

[WB_jokkr]

Thanks, 

 

I'll check it out

 

J

 

[WB_jokkr]

I thought I'd add an insight for the 2D guys.

 

Why VR if 2D is a better combat platform,  Why do we mess around with the compromises required to fly in VR?.

 

I thinks its about how we differ in the approach to the game.

 

VR makes you feel like your flying, not playing a game. Its great fun, doing a takeoff, a landing, doing formation flying with a wingman and other aviation activities that are in my opinion greatly superior to using my monitor.  The headsets really immerse me in the feeling of aviating. 

 

Many 2D pilots have a computer that will easily handle a VR headset. Its worth it I promise. 

 

If your goal is scoring, 2D is the optimal solution, just the way it is. I just feel like I'm playing a game when I use my trackir. 

 

Now if CLOD would get there I'd really be happy. Love that game too.

 

jokkr

Edited May 29, 2020 by JG51_jokkr
spelling

[dburne]

Yeah I uninstalled CLoD shortly after getting my first Rift back in Jan 2017.

Should they ever add it I might have another go with it, but really have my hands full just with IL-2 now and the few other games I have.

 

[Lusekofte]

Lol. I used the evening tweaking and checking what different settings do. 
With the PO 2 in finnish server. 
It was my best and funniest IL 2 evening I had in a long time. 
If anyone ever in doubt of buying VR borrow a set and fly po 2. I just trained on level bomb a road close to home base and flying around. Great stuff, I sometimes forget what a gem this game is

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

10 hours ago, JG51_jokkr said:

Fwiw, our squad is now close to 50% vr. And it seems like most of our new squad mates are coming vr equipped.

 

They are more active in hours on server. 

 

Just an observation...

 

Jokkr

SCG too. Large outfit, more than a dozen VR users. A third of the entire group is already in VR, approaching half. They pull the users that still use 2D mode in as well.

 

Just my observation. It will only increase. I bought IL-2 solely because of VR btw. Know several others that did that too. The playerbase is changing the ratio as well from what I can tell, there's so much more traffic in the VR section nowadays. My sticky thread in VR has 64k views (will update very soon). In 5 years there'll be 90% of the US/EU customers in VR and 10% left in 2D, it'll be upside down from 2017, mark my words. They are the audience that built cockpits before, those that purchase everything. Sometimes twice. Going without proper VR integration might carry such high opportunity costs that what first comes to mind is someone yelling "Nokia, Nokia!".. 

 

I want this Sim as a giant compilation, ever growing and attractive in 5 years too. That's important.

[WB_jokkr]

Ok, let's move on to why we play.

 

In the old days, we called Air Warrior, an AOL chat room with something to do. Since stand alone doesn't fit this discussion, (just choose what you have,) I'll only address multiplayer. I've been playing multiplayer since the 80's.

 

Anything that breaks up the community is bad, anything that brings it together is good.

 

It's about squads, wing men, axis vs allied. Winning the war/battle/ dogfight, Not loosing the war,/battle/dogfight.

 

it's a social game, about friends, allies, relationships. about showing off skills, developing skills.

 

You guys that think you can win by buying the best cpu, gpu, joystick, fastest network are missing the point. It's about people, relationships.

 

Enjoy the game, developers do their very best to level the playing field. To allow the broadest range of players and wildly differing hardware specs to come together. Quit bitching because you see better than I do out back and appear fearful I might cause it to be taken away. 

 

I really don't care. If it's perceived to be an unfair cheat it will be removed by the community not me.

 

Play because you want joy, community. If you want to win by spec play offline.

 

Jokkr

Edited May 30, 2020 by JG51_jokkr

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, JG51_jokkr said:

 

I really don't care. If it's perceived to be an unfair cheat it will be removed by the community not me.

It’s cheating to check six? tell this guy...

[WB_jokkr]

Sure, is he reading the placard on the armor plate?

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by JG51_jokkr

[=420=Syphen]

@SharpeXB  You don't own VR, don't use VR; you bring nothing to the conversation.. And when you do show up, you have all the tact of a 12 year old having ta tantrum and trying to argue something. Don't you have anything better to do then try to piss people off and making a fool of yourself?

11 minutes ago, JG51_jokkr said:

Sure, is he reading the placard on the armor plate?

 

 

Haha yeah he would be. Sharpe likes to post that pic in every other thread.. Not realizing that it's missing it's armour and headrests. It's setup for airshow flying.   'Red 7'.  Just ignore him.

 

And see attached pics to see what they've done in Red 7.

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by [CPT]HawkeyeP

[SharpeXB]

44 minutes ago, [CPT]HawkeyeP said:

You don't own VR, don't use VR; you bring nothing to the conversation..

And I’m only commenting when the VR people talk about “leveling the field” by handicapping other players. 
Hey add snap views for VR. Fine. Give VR a better zoom view (done)

But it’s not reasonable to suggest taking away functionality from other players because you’ve chosen to play in VR

And yeah pilots can actually turn their heads IRL, it just requires more effort and than can’t be simulated in a PC game. 
 

Watch this player with a Rift S do some excellent defensive flying at 2:20 and why do you think the P-51 was modified to have that blister canopy? He seems to be able to look behind himself just fine 

 

50 minutes ago, JG51_jokkr said:

Sure, is he reading the placard on the armor plate?

 

They could actually see back that far so they were tempted to remove it. 
“Only the protective armor plate behind my head kept me from being killed by a 20mm. I used to inspect all of the aircraft, as some men would take this plate out. It reduced rearward visibility by about twenty percent, so they removed it.”

- Johannes Steinhoff, The German Aces Speak II

 

44 minutes ago, [CPT]HawkeyeP said:

Not realizing that it's missing it's armour and headrests. It's setup for airshow flying.   

No kidding it’s an air show. No really? I thought it was actual footage from a WWII GoPro camera ?

They removed the armored headrest sometimes IRL just like you can in the sim to improve rearward visibility.
Why is there an armored glass headrest for the 109? Because the pilot could turn their head far enough to look through it!

Because they could actually turn their head like the pilot in the photo. They weren’t 60 year old guys wearing VR scuba masks. 

Edited May 30, 2020 by SharpeXB

[=420=Syphen]

It's cute, but also incredibly childish that you think all VR owners are "60 year olds in scuba masks". And you love to say that every time you post that pic too. Like a broken record or parrot. You really need to grow up with your debating abilities.   You debate like you're working off a flow chart that always loops back on itself. 

Edited May 30, 2020 by [CPT]HawkeyeP

[=GW=a7610783]

36 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

而且，我僅在VR人員談論通過限制其他玩家來“平衡領域”時發表評論。 
嘿，為VR添加快照視圖。精細。為VR提供更好的縮放視圖（完成）

但是建議您不要使用其他播放器的功能是不合理的，因為您選擇在VR中玩

是的，實際上，飛行員可以將自己的頭轉向IRL，這需要更多的努力，而無法在PC遊戲中模擬。 
 

看著帶有Rift S的球員在2:20時進行出色的防守飛行，為什麼您認為P-51被修改為具有那個水泡篷呢？他似乎可以向後看自己 

 

他們實際上可以看到那麼遠，因此很想將其刪除。 
“只有我頭後面的防護裝甲板可以防止我被20毫米炸死。我曾經檢查過所有飛機，因為有些人會把這個盤子拿出來。它使後方的能見度降低了約20％，因此他們將其拆除。

-Johannes Steinhoff，《德國王牌第二講》

 

別開玩笑，這是一個航展。不完全是？我以為這是二戰GoPro攝像機的真實鏡頭  actual

他們移除了裝甲的頭枕（有時是IRL），就像在模擬遊戲中一樣，以提高向後的視野。
為什麼109裝有玻璃鋼頭枕？因為飛行員可以轉過頭以查看它！

因為他們實際上可以像照片中的飛行員一樣轉頭。他們不是戴著VR水肺潛水面具的60歲男孩。 

Would you please show that you have used VR device and, let us discuss the advantages and disadvantages of VR

VR devices must experience in order to know his strengths and weaknesses, any person quoted is not correct (this is the subjective experience)

[dburne]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

And I’m only commenting when the VR people talk about “leveling the field” by handicapping other players. 

 

Oh man I so hate it when us VR dudes get caught talking about how we so want to handicap flyers that are not in VR.

Oh wait...

 

 

[SharpeXB]

46 minutes ago, [CPT]HawkeyeP said:

It's cute, but also incredibly childish that you think all VR owners are "60 year olds in scuba masks". 

To be fair the pilot there looks to be a rather old guy too ?

[VR-DriftaholiC]

19 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

To be fair the pilot there looks to be a rather old guy too ?

I don't understand the point of the picture, he's obviously looking out of the corner of his eye. So wouldn't this equal looking at the edge of your screen to see behind you? He would have to turn his head another 45 degrees in the same direction to match the owl necks in game lol

[dburne]

The two technologies - 2d on Monitor or 3d in VR, are so vastly different there is no way one can guarantee complete parity between the two.

The only way to achieve that would be to have VR versus VR MP, and Monitor versus Monitor MP.

Otherwise each tech is going to have strengths and weaknesses against the other.

I am not a MP guy, just seems to me getting caught up in this is not worth the worry.

Fly and have fun and try not to worry so much about what others may be able to do.

Edited May 31, 2020 by dburne

[SCG_motoadve]

This is a good thread dont let someone ruin it.

Not even worth the time replying to a VR hater.

Imagine wasting your life's time hating and complaining  about what other people's  use to fly a PC game, who cares.

[Hextopia]

I just wanted to step in and say I've been flying IL-2 off and on for a few years in VR, and It's always taken a backseat for me (and many others) specifically because of how many glaring issues there are in VR that the 3DMIGOTO mod fixed. (ASW prop artifacts, obscene sun glare that washes out the display if the sun is anywhere in your FOV, sun glare coming through the canopy frame because it's only detected for occlusion on one eye but not the other, artificial head movement constraints putting a few inches of invisible forcefield around the cockpit glass that you can't approach, terrible and ineffective zoom with no options to customize/change it to make it more useful, etc.)

 

Having those issues fixed by MIGOTO actually made IL-2 fun to fly in (with the exception of the ridiculously tight head constraints.  Makes you want to tear your hair out when you can't look behind yourself in a few fighters like the -190's since you're almost completely prevented from moving your head sideways around the seat, even though the same restriction doesn't feel like it exists when flying with trackir)

 

As it stands, there's always DCS for VR flight.  Even though it's not really the same type of flight sim, they do take VR user experience seriously and make it a point to improve performance and respond to VR user feedback in a timely manner.  It's been how many years of the same issues for IL-2?  And the only thing that's been addressed was one half-step forward with 2 steps backward.

[SharpeXB]

26 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said:

This is a good thread dont let someone ruin it.

Not even worth the time replying to a VR hater.

Imagine wasting your life's time hating and complaining  about what other people's  use to fly a PC game, who cares.

You get me wrong about this stuff. I don’t hate VR. And I don’t start these threads about “issues with VR”

“Its not fair I can’t see”

”It’s not fair I can’t turn my head”

And I’m not against adding features to help VR players

I am against limiting the game features for other players. This is an open forum and everyone gets to read and respond to what’s posted here. So if somebody wants to openly suggest taking away features in the game, yeah expect a response to that. 

1 hour ago, VR-DriftaholiC said:

I don't understand the point of the picture, he's obviously looking out of the corner of his eye. So wouldn't this equal looking at the edge of your screen to see behind you? He would have to turn his head another 45 degrees in the same direction to match the owl necks in game lol

A more realistic head turn like DCS would actually make looking back easier. The 180 owl view is looking right into the headrest and isn’t useful. 

[=420=Syphen]

The irony here is your defensiveness about anyone voicing an opinion about TiR.. When you were specifically being spiteful towards VR users opinions in the 3dmigoto threads with beauty quotes followed up by:

"You guys are just really defensive about any opinion on the subject."    but then come into the VR section of the forum and do the exact same thing you accuse others of.   

 

Must be hard to let others speak their mind... 

Edited May 31, 2020 by [CPT]HawkeyeP

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, [CPT]HawkeyeP said:

Must be hard to let others speak their mind... 

Everyone gets to post here. 

[Voyager]

On 5/29/2020 at 8:27 AM, molodoi said:

[...]

It gives VR user a bad image of ''spoiled child'' and elitist gamer. Don't get me wrong, I will for sure become a VR user in the next years but it is a bit sad to see such attitude today.

I think the part you are missing is that it was a dedicated 2D user who was running the fight to get 3Dmigoto banned. 

 

Once you're hurling around accusations of cheating you really don't get to go back and then complain that people are upset with you for it. How would you feel if some VR user lead a campaign that got TrackIR banned? 

[[CPT]Crunch]

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I am against limiting the game features for other players. This is an open forum and everyone gets to read and respond to what’s posted here. So if somebody wants to openly suggest taking away features in the game, yeah expect a response to that.

As I recall you went full out trying to eliminate the viewing system now relegated as the enhanced view setting.