P-47 The American Sturmovik?

[AirWolves=CutCut]

I have come to the conclusion that I need some advice when it comes to the P-47 in this sim. A bit of background on me, I have been playing online WWII aviation sims for years. From Air Warrior in the 90's to Aces High in the early 2000's to the original IL2 franchise on Hyper Lobby. The P-47 has always been a favorite of mine, and while challenging to fly in all of these sims, with enough practice and patience you could eventually find the way to fly the Jug to it's strengths and achieve some level of success in it. But in this sim the P-47 has become a complete enigma to me.

I have been successful in it when it comes to ground attack, but in a fighter roll it seems to be so out classed by every other fighter out there that I am now thinking of it as the American Sturmovik. A pure ground pounder that, unless it has an escort, is a suicide sled. I have had zero success online with it as a fighter, and only limited success offline flying missions against AI in PWCG. So my question to you other Jug lovers out there is this... Am I just beating my head against a wall trying to fly this thing as a fighter in this sim? Should I just accept the fact that it is the American Sturmovik and resign myself to the fact that is, for all intents and purposes, a bomber. Or should I continue on my quest to try and be proficient fighting in the P-47? And if so, how are you being successful with the Jug in a fighter role?

Thanks for any advice you might have,

AirWolves=CutCut

 

[ZachariasX]

2 hours ago, AirWolves=CutCut said:

Thanks for any advice you might have,

Did you ever try the Jug at 24+k feet altitude?

[Lusekofte]

Just now, ZachariasX said:

Did you ever try the Jug at 24+k feet altitude?

Yes it is good there, shame nothing happens up there

[[DBS]Browning]

You're not missing anything, that is essentially the jug's role in most multilayer scenarios right now. 

 

There are several reasons for this that include:

 

Late war plane sets

The P47 was out classed as a fighter by late 1944. It's much more competitive in early '43. However, there are no 1943 Western European scenarios being run in any of the popular servers and even if there where, the 47 we have isn't a good match for them. 

 

Low altitude 

Most fighting online takes place at low to medium altitude for various reasons. The 47 is much more at home at very hight altitude. 

 

Small engagements 

Like many aircraft that rely more on speed and fire power than manoeuvrability, the 47 does better when there are enough planes in an engagement to make use of mutual cover and drag and bag tactics. Online, 1v1 engagements are much more common than 8v? fights. 

 

Spotting issues 

The P47 does much better when the pilot's situational awareness is high. It's excellent dive and firepower allows it to jump lower targets and its weakness in prolonged fights can be negated if it can spot and avoid unfavourable engagements early. 

Of course, all aircraft do better with high SA, but charging into enemies blindly will usually end up better for a 109 or spitfire than it will for a Jug. 

The current problems with spotting limit the amount of awareness pilots can have about their surroundings and this is especially punishing on the 47.

Edited May 11, 2020 by [DBS]Browning

[Pikestance]

When I want to practice my gunnery skills, the P-47 is the machine of choice ?

[=RS=Stix_09]

To use the JUG effectively in Il-2 mission builders have make mission that suit it. Same for other planes like the P40.

Also when the jug entered service in Europe Germany was starting to have problems matching the numbers of planes being sent against it.

Not many engagements in ww2 were 1vs 1 affairs like in game. Its not a great solo fighter in MPlayer, squad play is a bit different.

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by =RS=Stix_09
typo

[Lusekofte]

It is simply a waste of time. Not even the DM do it justice. I rather take the P 38 it bring more bomb,  climb better, faster and turn better. It is really my biggest dissapointment. 

[=RS=Stix_09]

20 minutes ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

It is simply a waste of time. Not even the DM do it justice. I rather take the P 38 it bring more bomb,  climb better, faster and turn better. It is really my biggest dissapointment. 

 

Yes , but that is not because the p47 is a bad plane, it because of how it is used in game vs how it was actually used in ww2, the DM is not the problem, that is blamed for far too much.

33 minutes ago, [DBS]Browning said:

Late war plane sets

The P47 was out classed as a fighter by late 1944. It's much more competitive in early '43. However, there are no 1943 Western European scenarios being run in any of the popular servers and even if there where, the 47 we have isn't a good match for them. 

 

 

By late war 1944 the Germans had lost air superiority and were fighting huge odds in the air. The numbers vs is an often very overlooked impact in air engagement.

This short video explains this.

 

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by =RS=Stix_09

[BlitzPig_EL]

Expecting to have outcomes that mirror that of the real air war in a sim is your first mistake.  Never going to happen for a number of reasons, map size, session length, the way this sim is structured (tactical close air support is the name of the game here), and the way that most sim "pilots" use the software, all conspire against aircraft like the P47 which was designed for use at high altitudes.  Also as has been mentioned, the reality of the condition of the Luftwaffe in 44/45 simply does not exist in the sim.  In the sim the LW has all the fuel, pilots, and perfectly built aircraft that they can use, and because this is make believe, there is 0 attrition of good and bad pilots alike.  If you get shot down, all you have to do is hit the button on the interface and you are ready to fly again.  No fuss, no muss, no funeral.  Hence, sim pilots have far more "combat hours" than any real pilot in WW2 ever had,  you never go up against ill trained, ill fed, poorly motivated pilots in poorly built aircraft without enough fuel.

 

It's a perfect storm that makes anything but the very best fighter available to you the wrong choice, and the P47 was far from the best single seater available in WW2.

[Lusekofte]

1 hour ago, =RS=Stix_09 said:

the DM is not the problem, that is blamed for far too much.

so you think it should disintegrate after a burst? And one fragment no matter size

seize the engine in a hartbeat is correct?

[216th_Jordan]

16 minutes ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

so you think it should disintegrate after a burst? And one fragment no matter size

seize the engine in a hartbeat is correct?

 

Luse did you fly the P-47 after the patch? It's a strong bird now, even more so with 22 cylinders.

[Lusekofte]

2 minutes ago, 216th_Jordan said:

 

Luse did you fly the P-47 after the patch? It's a strong bird now, even more so with 22 cylinders.

 Thanks, No I forgot about the patch. Currently only fly coop on sundays and wedensday. 
You are by the way welcome to try it outwith us,   E 7 atm

[CountZero]

1 hour ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Expecting to have outcomes that mirror that of the real air war in a sim is your first mistake.  Never going to happen for a number of reasons, map size, session length, the way this sim is structured (tactical close air support is the name of the game here), and the way that most sim "pilots" use the software, all conspire against aircraft like the P47 which was designed for use at high altitudes.  Also as has been mentioned, the reality of the condition of the Luftwaffe in 44/45 simply does not exist in the sim.  In the sim the LW has all the fuel, pilots, and perfectly built aircraft that they can use, and because this is make believe, there is 0 attrition of good and bad pilots alike.  If you get shot down, all you have to do is hit the button on the interface and you are ready to fly again.  No fuss, no muss, no funeral.  Hence, sim pilots have far more "combat hours" than any real pilot in WW2 ever had,  you never go up against ill trained, ill fed, poorly motivated pilots in poorly built aircraft without enough fuel.

 

It's a perfect storm that makes anything but the very best fighter available to you the wrong choice, and the P47 was far from the best single seater available in WW2.

 

And on top of that you have 109s that can have double the time on emergancy and combat then it, recharge it at double rate and dont use up combat timer in emergancy mode.

So how in heck did americans in late war build so poor engines in perfect conditions compared to germans who are bombed 24/7 and have slaves building them. This game simply dosent represent real ww2 what so ever, pilots didnt have to be bathered by timers they were recomendations not time bombs we have in game. P-47 is one of worst airplanes and to bad BoN is giving as one more inseted some more usefule airplane especialy after last update to .50 cal, you dont have right ammo or convergance, even P-38 is miles better with 1x20mm and all guns in nouse (its best american airplane in game now after DM update that made P-51 like glass and .50 useless) and its combat speed is better then p-47 at any alt.

Edited May 11, 2020 by CountZero

[ShamrockOneFive]

The OP is not wrong. In the last year of WWII most of the fighter groups moved to the Mustang and the Thunderbolt was moved to tactical operations with modifications made to include as much ground pounding capabilities as possible. The way we fly the P-47 in IL-2 is not unlike the way that the 9th AF used their P-47's. The only difference is in numbers with the Allies having increasingly greater air superiority while competitive IL-2 scenarios see similar numbers on both sides.

 

Where the P-47 shines, at high altitude, is less of a feature in IL-2 multiplayer (although the Combat Box scenario with the B-25's making repeated attack runs draws the fight higher up for sure) but the few times I have flown up there the P-47 has been more than a match for the opposition. The rest of the time I load it up with bombs and use it that way.

 

Often I think the Thunderbolt's legendary status and wartime record sometimes blinds people to its shortcomings.

[Atomic_Spaniel]

There's a nice article on flying the real P-47 here by a modern-day display pilot. It sounds pretty much like the one we have in IL-2. 

 

 

https://vintageaviationecho.com/p-47-thunderbolt-nellie/

 

EDIT - it's worth clicking the link just for the beautiful photographs of the P-47 Nellie B!

Edited May 11, 2020 by Atomic_Spaniel

[MattS]

45 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

The OP is not wrong. In the last year of WWII most of the fighter groups moved to the Mustang and the Thunderbolt was moved to tactical operations with modifications made to include as much ground pounding capabilities as possible. The way we fly the P-47 in IL-2 is not unlike the way that the 9th AF used their P-47's. The only difference is in numbers with the Allies having increasingly greater air superiority while competitive IL-2 scenarios see similar numbers on both sides.

 

Was there not a P-47 Fighter Group CO who forbade pilots from voluntarily engaging enemy fighters below 15,000ft/4572m? I seem to recall reading that.

 

Quote

 

Often I think the Thunderbolt's legendary status and wartime record sometimes blinds people to its shortcomings.

 

Definitely a price to pay down low for lugging that massive turbo around!

[Lusekofte]

56 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

The only difference is in numbers with the Allies having increasingly greater air superiority while competitive IL-2 scenarios see similar numbers on both sides.

This is why this plane is simply not usable online. But offline in the otherhand I will use it. Wonderful feeling when flying it

[ShamrockOneFive]

4 minutes ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

This is why this plane is simply not usable online. But offline in the otherhand I will use it. Wonderful feeling when flying it

Not usable is an overexageration.

 

Lots of people fly it online. I've flown it online. I did a six person P-47 strike mission that was super fun not that long ago. We absolutely pounded a target while a couple of Mustangs kept the Luftwaffe at bay. It's very usable and even effective in the roles that it's good at.

[Stoopy]

2 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

Not usable is an overexageration.

 

Lots of people fly it online. I've flown it online. I did a six person P-47 strike mission that was super fun not that long ago. We absolutely pounded a target while a couple of Mustangs kept the Luftwaffe at bay. It's very usable and even effective in the roles that it's good at.

 

++

 

Matter of fact, flew it on Combat Box last night and had a successful sortie with a few other planes, tore up our target really well, got shot up a bit and made it home alive. Definitely better than my average results on that server.  Had a great time, can't wait to do it again!

 

[ShamrockOneFive]

23 minutes ago, MattS said:

 

Was there not a P-47 Fighter Group CO who forbade pilots from voluntarily engaging enemy fighters below 15,000ft/4572m? I seem to recall reading that.

 

 

Definitely a price to pay down low for lugging that massive turbo around!

I'd have to look that up but maybe. The fighter groups that used the P-47 did it with its pros and cons firmly in mind and they had tactics, coordination and numbers to make the whole thing work. It's smart leadership one way or another.

 

And yeah there's definitely a price for being one of the biggest heaviest fighters around.

[Birdman]

I've been flying it more recently on combat box. My advice is if you are not on comms, use the P-47 as point defence (stay around the friendly objectives and b'n'z attackers) you're more likely to have friendlies around if stuff goes bad too.

 

If you are on comms then a world of possibilities open. A group of P-47 can be a significant pain in the b*tt especially as most of your opponents will underestimate you.

[Pikestance]

Well, I don't get playing MP alone. If you don't use comms and you fly alone, you might as well play SP. Find some people, get a common time, fly together and you'll end up loving the plane even more. 

 

 

[AirWolves=CutCut]

So it sounds like my observations we're pretty much accurate as for the 47's usability in the low altitude environment of IL2 Great Battles, especially when it comes to online engagements. I have been doing the WWII sim thing long enough to know that you need to have patience, and fly a specific plane a lot, to really understand how to use it. I also have flown the Jug in enough of those sims to know that it is a plane the takes a truck load of patience to be successful at. I would love to say that I'll just go grab another plane and give up on the Jug, but while I still fly other crates, I am sure I will continue to try and make this sled work for me.  So in the mean time, please enjoy my big slow juicy target status on Combat Box! I'll be padding your scores for the foreseeable future! ? 

Thanks to all of you that replied, see you in the not so friendly skies!

AirWolves=CutCut

6 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

Did you ever try the Jug at 24+k feet altitude?

Yes I have flown it high up in PWCG campaigns and is does shine up there. It's just not where most of the engagements happen, especially online. 

[Stoopy]

When I was young, an Aunt of mine had a 1969 Chrysler New Yorker 2-door, the thing was HUGE even by early 1970's standards.  It had the 440 engine that gave out so much torque, it was as if a giant invisible hand was pushing your chest into the plush setback padding when she'd stomp on it (which she did, frequently).   I got my license shortly after that and I'd drive it from time to time, just enjoying the feel of a big, heavy, powerful and comfortable ride that I could spread out in, replete with lots of ornate chrome buttons and switches on the dashboard.  Flying the P-47 in this sim gets close to that same feeling.

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by =[TIA]=Stoopy

[AirWolves=CutCut]

6 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

Did you ever try the Jug at 24+k feet altitude?

 

I have had limited success with it at high altitude in a PWCG campaign. But thats certainly not the world where the fighting takes place on line. Maybe I should take it on a run as a bomber escort on the Mitchells Men map on Combat Box.

[Stoopy]

5 minutes ago, AirWolves=CutCut said:

...So in the mean time, please enjoy my big slow juicy target status on Combat Box! I'll be padding your scores for the foreseeable future! ? 

 

Will gladly look forward to teaming up with you to provide mutual cover, to help transition your status from being a "target" to a survivor & victor!

[AirWolves=CutCut]

3 minutes ago, =[TIA]=Stoopy said:

 

Will gladly look forward to teaming up with you to provide mutual cover, to help transition your status from being a "target" to a survivor & victor!

Thanks Amigo!! My squadie and I have done a run or two with me in a jug and him in a P-38 or Pony and it certainly makes a difference to have top cover. The juicy target syndrome can lead to juicy target fixation and drag and bag success. You just have to get comfortable with being the chum in the water so to speak! 

Thanks again, I'll keep my eye's open for ya online!  

[LukeFF]

9 hours ago, [DBS]Browning said:

The P47 was out classed as a fighter by late 1944.

 

Maybe in Europe, but not so in the Pacific. There's a good reason why N-model P-47s were escorting B-29s all the way up to the end of the war.

[PatrickAWlson]

4 hours ago, =[TIA]=Stoopy said:

When I was young, an Aunt of mine had a 1969 Chrysler New Yorker 2-door, ...

 

 

I drove a 1970s Chevy Impala for a bit.  My brother bought it for 150 bucks.  He lost the keys so we jimmied the steering column and started it with a screw driver.  After awhile my dad set the idle to max to keep it from stalling.  That one reminds me of the Ju52  

[III/JG53Frankyboy]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

Maybe in Europe, but not so in the Pacific. There's a good reason why N-model P-47s were escorting B-29s all the way up to the end of the war.

yes, wet wings

 

seriously, the P-47 was far from outclassed ! That almost every FG in the 8th AF flew P-51 had a simple reason - better range !

And true, in the 9th AF it found a Special reason for ist toughness  and rugged design - CAS.

 

It was a scandal that in Korea the F-51 had to do this Job and not the F-47 IMHO.

 

And yes, These low Level dogfights of the "normal" Server are not well suited for the JUG !

[Varibraun]

8 hours ago, Atomic_Spaniel said:

There's a nice article on flying the real P-47 here by a modern-day display pilot. It sounds pretty much like the one we have in IL-2. 

 

Very nice read - Thank you!

[357th_KW]

Comparing restored aircraft and their performance to wartime aircraft is apples to oranges.  In that article the pilot is talking about using 42"/2400rpm as an aerobatic power setting - that's lower than the max continuous rating that was available back then (42"/2550rpm) and is likely in the neighborhood of 1500bhp.  52"/2700rpm was about 2000bhp.  56"2700rpm (dry combat power for our in game plane - 15 minute limit) is 2300bhp.  65"/2700rpm (War Emergency/5 minute limit in game) is 2600bhp.  70"/2700rpm (War Emergency with water & 150 octane fuel as used by the 8th AF from June/July 44 onward, which we don't even have as an option in game) was 2800bhp.  So yeah - not surprising that the plane feels pretty gutless when you're only using about half the power it had available historically.

 

That combined with the fact that in game it's usually facing unicorn (perfect build/maintenance/MW50 etc) versions of rare German fighters that only became "common" in 1945 once the Luftwaffe had been defeated, and it's no shock that our P-47 seems like a real turd.  If someone put together scenarios with P-47s matched up against G-6s and A-8s with a handful of G-14s here and there, it would be a pretty darn effective fighter.

[CountZero]

1 hour ago, KW_1979 said:

Comparing restored aircraft and their performance to wartime aircraft is apples to oranges.  In that article the pilot is talking about using 42"/2400rpm as an aerobatic power setting - that's lower than the max continuous rating that was available back then (42"/2550rpm) and is likely in the neighborhood of 1500bhp.  52"/2700rpm was about 2000bhp.  56"2700rpm (dry combat power for our in game plane - 15 minute limit) is 2300bhp.  65"/2700rpm (War Emergency/5 minute limit in game) is 2600bhp.  70"/2700rpm (War Emergency with water & 150 octane fuel as used by the 8th AF from June/July 44 onward, which we don't even have as an option in game) was 2800bhp.  So yeah - not surprising that the plane feels pretty gutless when you're only using about half the power it had available historically.

 

That combined with the fact that in game it's usually facing unicorn (perfect build/maintenance/MW50 etc) versions of rare German fighters that only became "common" in 1945 once the Luftwaffe had been defeated, and it's no shock that our P-47 seems like a real turd.  If someone put together scenarios with P-47s matched up against G-6s and A-8s with a handful of G-14s here and there, it would be a pretty darn effective fighter.

 

Thats exactly what you should expect in after D Day mission on BoN map, 109g6s, some g14s and planty 190a8s vs spi9s p-51s p-47s p-38s typhoons and so on... heck you can have that now if you wont online, but axis are used to have supirior airplanes and terms online, not eaqal or wors online so it aint gona happend, you have unlimited slots and on top k4 d9s as mutch you wont. Oh and good luck with 1943 missions where you would have only 190a5/6 and g4/6 vs spit9s p-51s p-38s and p47s no way thats gona hapend online. Early to mid 1942 is what bon map is made to be used online, slow huricanes  and spitVs and few a-20s vs 109f4 g2 and 190a3, now thats the spot, we can skip 43 and then come back to it at mid-late 44 ;D

Edited May 12, 2020 by CountZero

[=RS=Stix_09]

12 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Expecting to have outcomes that mirror that of the real air war in a sim is your first mistake.  Never going to happen for a number of reasons, map size, session length, the way this sim is structured (tactical close air support is the name of the game here), and the way that most sim "pilots" use the software, all conspire against aircraft like the P47 which was designed for use at high altitudes.  Also as has been mentioned, the reality of the condition of the Luftwaffe in 44/45 simply does not exist in the sim.  In the sim the LW has all the fuel, pilots, and perfectly built aircraft that they can use, and because this is make believe, there is 0 attrition of good and bad pilots alike.  If you get shot down, all you have to do is hit the button on the interface and you are ready to fly again.  No fuss, no muss, no funeral.  Hence, sim pilots have far more "combat hours" than any real pilot in WW2 ever had,  you never go up against ill trained, ill fed, poorly motivated pilots in poorly built aircraft without enough fuel.

 

It's a perfect storm that makes anything but the very best fighter available to you the wrong choice, and the P47 was far from the best single seater available in WW2.

 

Yes this is true . The point was not whether we can/can't have realistic "as it was combat" in the sim, but that typical dogfight combat does not favor the p47 in sim.I believe its certainly possible to create scenarios that work on its strengths, regardless of whether its ""as it was combat"  or not.

 

The scenario of any combat matters more in regards to any plane in this sim. I also agree we will never get "as it was combat"  in this or any other sim/game. No one would prob want to play if we did that anyway. ie it would not be much fun being bored, in major fear, tired, in pain or freezing your **& off for example or facing imbalanced odds for most people, let alone having the time to do it. Gamplay fun has to be the overriding thing, and that changes the scenarios a lot and requires careful mission design to get most out of any plane in game. And has to be build around specific plane sets.

And as a mission builder I can say in confidence that is not always an easy task to do.

 

11 hours ago, CountZero said:

 

And on top of that you have 109s that can have double the time on emergancy and combat then it, recharge it at double rate and dont use up combat timer in emergancy mode.

So how in heck did americans in late war build so poor engines in perfect conditions compared to germans who are bombed 24/7 and have slaves building them. This game simply dosent represent real ww2 what so ever, pilots didnt have to be bathered by timers they were recomendations not time bombs we have in game. P-47 is one of worst airplanes and to bad BoN is giving as one more inseted some more usefule airplane especialy after last update to .50 cal, you dont have right ammo or convergance, even P-38 is miles better with 1x20mm and all guns in nouse (its best american airplane in game now after DM update that made P-51 like glass and .50 useless) and its combat speed is better then p-47 at any alt.

 

Not sure if I would go so far to say p38 better  allied plane in game than a p51. It certainly has its weaknesses, with its poor dive performance in comparison to many other planes in game. Pilot skill and situation can change that considerably, in any plane.

Edited May 12, 2020 by =RS=Stix_09

[Blackhawk_FR]

23 hours ago, AirWolves=CutCut said:

Am I just beating my head against a wall trying to fly this thing as a fighter in this sim?

 

- P47 get more and more better with altitude but you still can "play" with G14s and A8s at low altitude (basicaly same speeds).

- The rule "engage only with energy advantage" is definitely THE rule with P47. You can still win without advantage with a P51 or a Spitfire. Not with P47. 

- Use boom & zoom tactics, and pull down some flaps (up to 20%, they wont jamm even at 450mph) to get more maneuverability at high speed. 

- Go away from the fight as soon as you're getting low on speed and altitude. 

- Take the time (like, really) needed to climb, away from hot area. 

- WEP is very powerful but last only 5min (while germans can run MW50 for 10min). Btw, 5min on continous regenerate 2min30 of emergency, which is not bad!

- In very last resort, when you are pin down, flaps out (75-100%) make you able to easily beat anything in low speed turn fight. Try it if you never did, you'll be surprised (so will be your opponent). 

- Of course, having at least a wingman help a lot. 

- Learn how to get the maximum speed out of this heavy thing: 

Spoiler

 

 

 

In summary, it's not the most effective fighter as you definitely need energy advantage, and you loose a lot of time to climb and re climb after a fight. But with this rules you can at least survive and at best get some kills. 

I also recommand you to properly use the K14 gunsight. High speed passes on targets that may have different speed can make you miss a shot you never thought you could miss it. With all the time and patience needed to kill and survive with the P47, it can be very frustrating to miss something. 

Edited May 12, 2020 by JG300_Faucon

[Talon_]

10 hours ago, KW_1979 said:

That combined with the fact that in game it's usually facing unicorn (perfect build/maintenance/MW50 etc) versions of rare German fighters that only became "common" in 1945 once the Luftwaffe had been defeated, and it's no shock that our P-47 seems like a real turd.  If someone put together scenarios with P-47s matched up against G-6s and A-8s with a handful of G-14s here and there, it would be a pretty darn effective fighter.

 

You can fly it on "A Bridge Too Far" on Combat Box but it's still tough to make it work compared to a Mustang.

[Blackhawk_FR]

There are severals maps on Combat Box without K4 and Dora. Bridge but also Crimea, Kalinin, Scheldt, may be I forget one. 

[SAS_Storebror]

9 hours ago, =RS=Stix_09 said:

Not sure if I would go so far to say p38 better  allied plane in game than a p51. It certainly has its weaknesses, with its poor dive performance in comparison to many other planes in game. Pilot skill and situation can change that considerably, in any plane.

 

Well @CountZero probably mainly compared the P-38 to the P-47 instead, given that we're discussing the latter in this thread:

  

21 hours ago, CountZero said:

P-47 is one of worst airplanes and to bad BoN is giving as one more inseted some more usefule airplane especialy after last update to .50 cal, you dont have right ammo or convergance, even P-38 is miles better with 1x20mm and all guns in nouse (its best american airplane in game now after DM update that made P-51 like glass and .50 useless) and its combat speed is better then p-47 at any alt.

 

And that's something I have to agree with.

IL-2 Great Battles P-38 IMHO wins against the P-47 in every way, at every altitude, in every situation.

It's more nimble, faster, turns better, has the better and more versatile weapons - it's simply better in each and every regard.

Whereas in real life, when P-47s got introduced for the first two squadrons in ETO, one of them transitioned from P-38 to P-47, and they were happy with it (oh yeah, I'm perfectly prepared for getting nailed to the cross for "anecdotal" refs now - bite me!).

If "our" P-47's combat performance was anywhere close to what it was in real life, the 78th FG must have been totally nuts.

Honestly, put two average sim pilots in 'em, and even a 109 E-7 will win 9 out of 10 fights against the P-47.

 

Mike

Edited May 12, 2020 by SAS_Storebror

[Lusekofte]

19 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

Not usable is an overexageration.

 

Lots of people fly it online. I've flown it online. I did a six person P-47 strike mission that was super fun not that long ago. We absolutely pounded a target while a couple of Mustangs kept the Luftwaffe at bay. It's very usable and even effective in the roles that it's good at.

Yes but the P 38 does the job better , faster and more surviveable.

I no longer fly that much online, planes I like is only feeding opurtunistic fighters with easy prey, If I have a go I need a fast climber and fast gettaway  route. With the p 38 I can elevate quickly and be on a higher less expectable place after bombing a target. Flying alone P 47 is a death trap. And online I am always alone. Flying the planes I like bring a outburn and fatique that is difficult  recovering from. Bobp is in my mind a plane set from hell, BON bring fortunatly in aircraft I can live with, it was a hobby savier for me. 

Edited May 12, 2020 by 216th_LuseKofte

[=RS=Stix_09]

 

1 hour ago, SAS_Storebror said:

 

Well @CountZero probably mainly compared the P-38 to the P-47 instead, given that we're discussing the latter in this thread:

 

 

22 hours ago, CountZero said:

 

Aneven P-38 is miles better with 1x20mm and all guns in nouse (its best american airplane in game now after DM update that made P-51 like glass and .50 useless) and its combat speed is better then p-47 at any alt.

As stated in my previous post I do not agree with the bold statement highlighted above about the p51 (and BTW this does also compare the p38 to the p51 and not just the p47)

Prior to the DM update the p51 was problematic IMHO and too resilient, also we may yet see changes to the current DM as devs have stated in other threads in still work in progress (and prob always will be).  It will never be close to perfect, they just can't do that because the don't model enough hit boxes or even if they could cant do it in  real time and have something playable (see this post).  Probability/statistics is a big part of the current DM,  and DM is already a whole other thread(s).

 

1 hour ago, SAS_Storebror said:

 

And that's something I have to agree with.

IL-2 Great Battles P-38 IMHO wins against the P-47 in every way, at every altitude, in every situation.

It's more nimble, faster, turns better, has the better and more versatile weapons - it's simply better in each and every regard.

Whereas in real life, when P-47s got introduced for the first two squadrons in ETO, one of them transitioned from P-38 to P-47, and they were happy with it (oh yeah, I'm perfectly prepared for getting nailed to the cross for "anecdotal" refs now - bite me!).

If "our" P-47's combat performance was anywhere close to what it was in real life, the 78th FG must have been totally nuts.

Honestly, put two average sim pilots in 'em, and even a 109 E-7 will win 9 out of 10 fights against the P-47.

 

Mike

 

I would agree with most of that about the p47  in game currently. The p38 except in a dive can out fly the p47, and the nose guns are easier to use and more accurate at range (and certainly against a small target like jigging fighter). I'm not knowledgeable enough on the p38 myself and can only go on others comments with more experience in that plane than me.

I still state the main issue with p47 is use scenario  in game as other have also said in this topic. (and a p38 vs p47 is not thing to compare anyway as they don't fight each other, except in player choice of plane, based on scenario of use.).

 

I'm not saying the P47 is as well implemented as maybe it could be.  There is much I would like changed in game, but that's a different topic to this thread.

In general I think with IL-2 GB we have and excellent ww2 combat sim, and I like the general direction its moving. I think some ppl just have unrealistic expectations and will always be disappointed as a result.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2020 by =RS=Stix_09
updated for clarity