Migoto Is a Cheat. Devs please Ban this!

[JG1_Wittmann]

Quote

But this mod doesn’t level the field. It confers an advantage over another player who isn’t using it. Whether they are using VR or not

 

The developers   should just incorporate  this into the game so that everyone is using it,    then the whining about cheating  can stop.    Why  a thread would have such vitriol  in it revolving around  something that clearly  visually   improves the game  is  surprising,    but then again, not really.     I  have for  myself, been considering  researching and buying the best VR set I could so that I would have some semblance of capability to ID   AC  on par with others, VR  users,  or not.      The comparisons to TIR, Reshade, TacView,  etc etc  are all good,  and really close to the mark.   I have flown with  people using VR.  We have both seen AC,  and at  decent ranges,  I can't specifically  quantify,  but the difference has been, they have been able to ID  those AC, as friendly, nme, and even what type,   all I see is a dot,  and when it get's real close,  sometimes  I can positively ID before I/they are in gun range.    Why anyone here,  that uses VR,   and this 3Dmigoto,  would want this ability removed from 2d users,  seems quite a bit elitist to me.  Why anyone with a monitor would be  crying about this to be removed is something I can't  comprehend.  The   reasoning that it is cheating, or destroys realism  is literally  nonsense.  Next time you fly,  if  you do,   sit in the window,  look down at buildings,   if you see any other AC take note,,,,,     as soon as you are home, fire up the game and compare ?  Now tell me,  that  this is not visually realistic,  in a game that is not visually realistic !   I don't have the greatest eyesight,  and I'm sure alot of others here do not as well.     Removing this ability from 2d users, now that some of us have seen it and liked it for visual improvement,  would be very unfair, and advantageous to the VR users.   Removing it from all,,,,,,    now why would I want  anyone to have the same crappy visual experience I have had to deal with ?  

[Guest deleted@134347]

56 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s pretty obvious that it’s an advantage. It doesn’t require a lengthy explanation. 
It’s it’s not an advantage why are you using it?

And you keep framing the “advantage” discussion around VR vs Monitor. But since any player can use it what about the circumstance of monitor vs monitor or VR vs VR when one player is modded? 
It’s a cheat pure and simple. That it’s a popular cheat doesn’t make it less so. 

 

I use it in VR where the regular zoom is at 1.5. The 3dmigoto mod gives me x5 zoom in VR, which is equal to your monitor x2 zoom.

 

On another hand you can't back up any of your statements, whilst I provided a detail of a typical engagement in the previous posts.

 

You're just a puff of air and a simple troll. Go pound sand.

 

edit: i slipped with the F word.

Edited May 1, 2020 by Count_de_Money

[Barnacles]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

DCS allows an excessive zoom for VR? I know it has a VR zoom but I don’t know how much. 

Now in modern air combat that’s definitely a cheat because the weapons can reach out that far. In WWII you might be able to argue it’s not much of an advantage seeing enemy aircraft that far away (it certainly isn’t a disadvantage) A while back DCS tried those sprites and it was disastrous for that reason. 

It's not the hubble space telescope but it seems equivalent to the 3D Migoto medium level zoom. Any more and it would need an image stabilizer to be useful. And that would make some people barf in VR. Anyway, they used to only have one, very similar level of VR zoom to what we have natively in IL2. They've added something called, 'spyglass' or something like that. Which is higher power.

 

[Alonzo]

4 hours ago, [DBS]Browning said:

2. A cheat is software external to the game that gives an advantage

 

This one is tricky as there are examples of software that give players an advantage in IL-2 that most would not consider cheats. For example, reshade, navigation tools, motion platform software, etc. If you are going to accept some, but not others, then you need to use a different method to define cheats.

 

This one's interesting -- reshade allows you to massively crank up sharpening and mess with color saturation, which increases local contrast and makes spotting easier. Doesn't work in VR.

[Barnacles]

Just say I had a visual impairment that meant I felt I was unable to play without icons. And I had a mod which I used to enable me to switch icons on on a non icon server. What would you say to that?

 

Just out of interest, I'm not trying to kick anyone's sandcastle down here.

 

[E69_geramos109]

1 hour ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

it's blurred because your computer can't render anything outside of your render bubble, it has nothing to do with the mod itself. Not sure how else this can be explained to you. Mod does not blur anything.

 

You can achieve the same result by setting your rendering horizon distance to 20km and you'll get the same blurred zoom effect with in-game zoom (without using the mod).

 

No. That is not true the terrain is blurred because migoto zoom is working making zoom on the game ignoring the rendering of everything except objects while with the In game zoom the game is re-rendering what you are looking for keeping the definition. Without zoom you dont need a perfect definded terrain that will just take a lot of resources on computer to work so the render improves when you are making the zoom. Migoto is Ignoring that on everything that is not an object. 

Setting the 20km limit as you say the game will look like trash without the zoom as well and what you are saying on my screenshots is not that far so this trick will solve nothing. 

 

[Guest deleted@134347]

7 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

Setting the 20km limit as you say the game will look like trash

 

TRASH. That's what your game world looks like outside of your rendering distance, you donut.  The mod simply allows you to look at that "trash".  It doesn't "ignore" anything, it just shows you what is there.

 

I mean, there's people who don't understand technology and there people who don't want to understand the technology.

 

Oh, my. 

 

Ignorant people like you propagate their easy-to-understand but completely skewed "knowledge" to others as the truth creating the dumb majority, which in the end impacts more or less normal folks with some ability to have a constructive thought.

 

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by Count_de_Money

[JG1_Wittmann]

12 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

Just say I had a visual impairment that meant I felt I was unable to play without icons. And I had a mod which I used to enable me to switch icons on on a non icon server. What would you say to that?

 

 

Barnacles,    I would say, "  Hey,  PM me,  I need a copy of that ASAP ! "     ?

[Talon_]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Well I can read what they have posted here repeatedly. That VR players believe they need this zoom level to compensate for the low resolution of their HMDs. 

 

Are you just gonna ignore my repeated posts that zoom works differently in VR and that the 3Dmigoto zoom in VR is equivalent to the 2D maximum zoom? It doesn't zoom further than a 2D screen.

[RedKestrel]

 

Just now, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

Just say I had a visual impairment that meant I felt I was unable to play without icons. And I had a mod which I used to enable me to switch icons on on a non icon server. What would you say to that?

 

Just out of interest, I'm not trying to kick anyone's sandcastle down here.

 

I don't think that's a fully valid comparison. Icons does not level a playing field, though. In that case a more level response would be letting players choose their visibility setting, from alternate to normal. The alt spotting would give him a boost to spotting without giving him icons which give perfect knowledge of the location and type of all enemy aircraft without looking. Not saying I want to see this happen, but this would be a more proportionate response to a guy with a visual impairment.

In this case a bigger zoom compensates for lower res, screen door effect, etc. It's roughly proportionate to put people on more or less the same playing field Even if it does confer an advantage, its not an order of magnitude like icons would be IMO.

 

8 minutes ago, Alonzo said:

 

This one's interesting -- reshade allows you to massively crank up sharpening and mess with color saturation, which increases local contrast and makes spotting easier. Doesn't work in VR.

Yeah, this is a can of worms on top of a large pile of more cans of worms, and possibly snakes. If this mod is an unfair advantage, then nearly all the third party software people use falls under the same category. 

If we consider a cheat to be simply software external to the game that conveys advantage, that also covers:
-Discord and Teamspeak 
-Head tracking software
-Reshade (better sharpening)
-Joystick profiling (setting macros, different profiles so you don't need to hunt on the keyboard, customized response curves not available in the base game, etc). 

We consider these fine because:
-anyone can download them for free - 3Dmigoto is available to everyone for free - CHECK
-most people are familiar with them and know where to find them - 3Dmigoto is widely known in the community -CHECK
-It doesn't fundamentally change the game - 3Dmigoto does not show things not already rendered, it just puts a magnifying glass over them - CHECK
- it's functionality people want in the base game but the devs haven't provided yet - 3Dmigoto provides zoom  VR users have wanted for years - CHECK. 

Like, you could just about accomplish what 3Dmigoto manages to do on a monitor with a big magnifying glass. You'll just see the pixels closer. 

[Guest deleted@134347]

2 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

Are you just gonna ignore my repeated posts that zoom works differently in VR and that the 3Dmigoto zoom in VR is equivalent to the 2D maximum zoom? It doesn't zoom further than a 2D screen.

 

he's a troll without a single constructive argument, just like anyone else here who's against this mod.

 

I suggest the Mods lock this useless topic.

[Talon_]

2 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

Like, you could just about accomplish what 3Dmigoto manages to do on a monitor with a big magnifying glass. You'll just see the pixels closer. 

 

Just push WinKey and Plus and you'll have the digital Windows magnifier on screen that you can move about at will

[Hawk-2a]

21 minutes ago, Alonzo said:

This one's interesting -- reshade allows you to massively crank up sharpening and mess with color saturation, which increases local contrast and makes spotting easier.

Well you can also crank up sharpening etc in Nvidia control panel, so you‘d have to forbid that too. Altering the startup.cfg to values that are impossible to achieve in the in-game options should therefore also not be possible etc.

 

there is multiple ways around it, one just has to be willing to fiddle with stuff.

 

also, high sharpening makes spotting targets a bit easier, but ID of targets is probably worse than on default settings overall, because the outlines get fucked up quite severe depending on the value.

 

But a 10x zoom... sounds like a bit much to „make up for the difference to 2D screens“.

 

personally i dont give a shit and i do not blame any death on „he has 10x zoom“, that is just silly. to shoot me, one has to be in range anyway and any somewhat aware (and paranoid) pilot will look at his 6 every 3-5 seconds anyway.

 

it‘s just funny that this whole discussion comes up after all this time the mod has been released. Nobody said anything and suddenly it‘s a cheat?

 

y‘all need more fresh air and a less competitive mindset. Flying is what we‘re here for, not drama like kids in CS or CoD.

[Barnacles]

 

11 minutes ago, JG1_Wittmann said:

 

Barnacles,    I would say, "  Hey,  PM me,  I need a copy of that ASAP ! "     ?

Do you want the Pe2 gunner mod and the homing RP3 rocket mod too? ?

 

[SharpeXB]

38 minutes ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

I use it in VR where the regular zoom is at 1.5. The 3dmigoto mod gives me x5 zoom in VR, which is equal to your monitor x2 zoom.

So the Mod gives you an unfair advantage against another VR player if they aren’t using Mods. How is that not a cheat?

24 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

Migoto is Ignoring that on everything that is not an object. 

So Migoto is enhancing the visibility of objects against the terrain?

If so that’s definitely a cheat as well. 

[Talon_]

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

So the Mod gives you an unfair advantage against another VR player if they aren’t using Mods. How is that not a cheat?

It literally makes the magnification factor equal. It just looks different when used in 2D.

[Beazil]

7 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

So the Mod gives you an unfair advantage against another VR player if they aren’t using Mods. How is that not a cheat?

So Migoto is enhancing the visibility of objects against the terrain?

If so that’s definitely a cheat as well. 

You haven't used it, so how would you know?

[JG1_Wittmann]

10 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

Well I can read what they have posted here repeatedly. That VR players believe they need this zoom level to compensate for the low resolution of their HMDs. 

 

You know,   I drive a Subaru  and a HD  NRS   as my commuter vehicles to work.  Both get good mileage and I have  75  mile  RT every day.   Now  where I work,   alot of the guys here,  drive  these  big,  primarily diesel trucks.   They are not towing anything to work.  I have a truck, that I use as a truck   not a commuter vehicle.  

 

Now as to the above post,   I am wondering   if the people referenced in the above quote, the VR players,   are trying  to compensate for the same thing that I frequently tell my co-workers they are ? ?

[JG1_Vonrd]

Hot AND fresh

[SharpeXB]

Just now, JG51_Beazil said:

You haven't used it, so how would you know?

By the definition of what it does. And that one player can have it when others might not. That’s a cheat. It has nothing to do with VR vs monitor or a level playing field. It’s a Mod which confers an advantage for the user, whether that user is a VR player or not. And so should be server regulated.

[Beazil]

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

By the definition of what it does. And that one player can have it when others might not. That’s a cheat. It has nothing to do with VR vs monitor or a level playing field. It’s a Mod which confers an advantage for the user, whether that user is a VR player or not. And so should be server regulated.

Jesus you are dense. 

If it was a cheat it would have been banned.  You know that but even when you are handed footage and given the opportunity to demonstrate some working knowledge, you instead cling to your fallacy based on what?  Your injured feelings?  Your speculation?  Your first hand experience?  Oh wait, you don't need any pesky proof.  Just hop on your soapbox and preach brother.

Edited May 1, 2020 by JG51_Beazil

[JG1_Wittmann]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

By the definition of what it does. And that one player can have it when others might not. That’s a cheat. It has nothing to do with VR vs monitor or a level playing field. It’s a Mod which confers an advantage for the user, whether that user is a VR player or not. And so should be server regulated.

 

Don't  we have  enough   " Regulation "    on some of the mp servers ?     A buddy of mine  calls  one server " Wings  of Limited "   I'm sure you can figure it out.   I just wish  that  the game  did not allow  server " dictators "  to eliminate possible ammo loadouts or weapons,  that  were in fact historical, and realistic I might add.   Didn't someone mention cheating and realism somewhere in this thread ?

21 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

Do you want the Pe2 gunner mod and the homing RP3 rocket mod too? ?

 

Just the Pe2  mod,   you know,  the one that makes the gunner  fire  10 degrees off ,  but only 10 deg off  the players  running the mod !      The add-on  to this being the  self set charges at the wing roots  when  " modded " players  open fire on them

I'm  enjoying this thread  more and more as time goes by.  I'm  at  work,   but  this has been a good break.

 

So my question is,  if someone  is using CBD  oil,  or perhaps smoking hash oil out of a vape can,  while flying IL2  no less,  would the cheater crowd here,  consider either of those a cheat ?

[JG1_Vonrd]

32 minutes ago, JG1_Wittmann said:

So my question is,  if someone  is using CBD  oil,  or perhaps smoking hash oil out of a vape can,  while flying IL2  no less,  would the cheater crowd here,  consider either of those a cheat ?

Nah... but Meth... that's an altogether different matter. ?

Edited May 1, 2020 by JG1_VVS_Vonrd

[SharpeXB]

49 minutes ago, JG51_Beazil said:

 

If it was a cheat it would have been banned.

It may yet be. I’m surprised that it’s not regulated by the Mods Mode. 

[Beazil]

24 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It may yet be. I’m surprised that it’s not regulated by the Mods Mode. 

and won't you be so proud!

 

Okay, breathe slow.... 

 

What I'm doing now, to try to see your point of view, is disabling the mod.  I will fly regular for a while with the mod disabled.  

 

I invite you to install the mod, try it offline, or online who cares?  Go prove to the rest of us what an exploitive tool this is and report back.

 

Otherwise you are just proving yourself to be another wagging mouth.  Fair enough?

Edited May 1, 2020 by JG51_Beazil

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

44 minutes ago, JG1_VVS_Vonrd said:

Nah... but Meth... that's an altogether different matter. ?

 

Historical reenactment isn't cheating dammit!!!!!!

[Talon_]

33 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It may yet be. I’m surprised that it’s not regulated by the Mods Mode. 

 

As far as I know it's not detectable by the game code anyway.

[JG1_Wittmann]

Has everyone heard of a " pissing contest "     I first saw the following    years ago,  believe I was   intoxicated at the time,  but found  very funny, hilariously so !

 

I beilieve  music  by  MC Hammer ?    Not sure,  not my kind of music

 

 

 

Comments  or Questions ?

Edited May 1, 2020 by JG1_Wittmann

[[DBS]Browning]

29 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

As far as I know it's not detectable by the game code anyway.

 This is correct. Like reshade, it can't be detected currently.

However, it is possible, in principle to detect the use of altered shades. 

[SharpeXB]

58 minutes ago, JG51_Beazil said:

 

I invite you to install the mod, try it offline, or online who cares?  Go prove to the rest of us what an exploitive tool this is and report back.

Why waste the time? The OP made it all very clear. And watching this again I notice how the objects like aircraft aren’t blurred like the landscape but stand out clearly. If that’s not an exploit then what is? Sure this is probably all post process or whatever and can’t be detected by the game so that’s why it isn’t blocked because if that was possible then it certainly would be the type of mod to require Mods On in MP

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by SharpeXB

[CountZero]

Game has MOD ON and MOD OFF option, you have servers using ON or OFF. If you wont to play with any type of mods you play on servers that have MODS ON if i wont to play on servers that have MODS OFF i expect everybody has same software there and ppl who use programs that give them any % of advantage on MODS OFF server are cheating using it. Whats the point of having MOD ON and MOD OFF options if they are not working. People jumping all kined of hoops to justifie use of this mod on MODS OFF servers are funny as heck. Its option that gives user advantage that game dosent give him, and its clear that some cheats are alowed when this type of mod is avilable to be used on MOD OFF servers where people expect all have same software.

Edited May 1, 2020 by CountZero

[Tycoon]

Here's a quick test I did, like Beazil's video instant zoom changes are the mod while smooth changes are ingame zoom. Without alternate plane visibility it seems to  be an enhanced zoom, while with alternate turned on there seems to be something off about plane size, using the mod the plane model stays large, while using in game zoom the plane size shrinks, you can see it in real time here, 1:08 mark.

Here's a more practical example of use on multiplayer.

Edited May 2, 2020 by Tycoon

[Beazil]

16 minutes ago, Tycoon said:

 

 

19 minutes ago, CountZero said:

Game has MOD ON and MOD OFF option, you have servers using ON or OFF. If you wont to play with any type of mods you play on servers that have MODS ON if i wont to play on servers that have MODS OFF i expect everybody has same software there and ppl who use programs that give them any % of advantage on MODS OFF server are cheating using it. Whats the point of having MOD ON and MOD OFF options if they are not working. People jumping all kined of hoops to justifie use of this mod on MODS OFF servers are funny as heck. Its option that gives user advantage that game dosent give him, and its clear that some cheats are alowed when this type of mod is avilable to be used on MOD OFF servers where people expect all have same software.

 

Got a headset?  Done any testing whatsoever?  Have any clue what you are talking about?  

Edited May 1, 2020 by JG51_Beazil

[Talon_]

19 minutes ago, CountZero said:

ppl who use programs that give them any % of advantage on MODS OFF server are cheating using it.

 

It doesn't give you an advantage. It literally gives you the same zoom factor of a 2D display.

[Tycoon]

1 minute ago, JG51_Beazil said:

Got a headset?  Done any testing whatsoever?  Have any clue what you are talking about?  Any at all?

This is just using the mod in 2D.

[Beazil]

Just now, Tycoon said:

This is just using the mod in 2D.

That wasn't for you bud.  Sorry. 

[Tycoon]

Just now, JG51_Beazil said:

That wasn't for you bud.  Sorry. 

Np I just noticed the other quote.

[CountZero]

4 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

It doesn't give you an advantage. It literally gives you the same zoom factor of a 2D display.

Its mod, if something is wrong with VR zoom levels then Devs need to fix it, if they leve it as its is then they think thats what it should be.

There is planty mods for this game that fix things that is tought to be wrong, and they are to be used on servers that are MOD ON, not MOD OFF.

I would like to use planty mods in game to play on mods off servers but its not alowed, so any exeption is cheat. If something is wrong its up to devs to fix it if its to be used in clean game and mod off servers. The game has 2 options ON and OFF mods so what mods are alowed to be used on Mods off then ? no mods, its simple.

[Beazil]

And if you did any testing, any at all, you would see what the rest of us are saying; it's not a cheat.  

This thread should be a sociology study on collective idiocy.

 

[Talon_]

7 minutes ago, CountZero said:

Its mod, if something is wrong with VR zoom levels then Devs need to fix it, if they leve it as its is then they think thats what it should be.

There is planty mods for this game that fix things that is tought to be wrong, and they are to be used on servers that are MOD ON, not MOD OFF.

I would like to use planty mods in game to play on mods off servers but its not alowed, so any exeption is cheat. If something is wrong its up to devs to fix it if its to be used in clean game and mod off servers. The game has 2 options ON and OFF mods so what mods are alowed to be used on Mods off then ? no mods, its simple.

 

Lots of mods can be used on Mods Off servers e.g. skins.

 

Also as I've said before, all the admins of the most popular server fly in VR so if we have to we'll just set Combat Box to Mods On which will inevitably invite much worse cheats ?